Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Simon Poole]

If I understand Ilya correctly what he wants to avoid is (the hassle of)
the authorisation step when using OAuth. During this process you need to
login to openstreetmap.org with your credentials and then confirm that
the app is allowed to access the API on your behalf.

To see what is involved in practical terms you can try to use the HOT
task manager, maproulette etc (or on a mobile device Vespucci, I assume
Go Map! uses OAuth too, as any current third party app for OSM should).

The authorisation is a one time process (per app) and as such I'm not
quite convinced that the whole discussion isn't a solution looking for a
problem, but Ilya is correct in that it does involve the hassle of
people remembering their google/FB/whatever password. Naturally on a
mobile device you want to minimize typing in any case so I'm mildly in
support of at least investigating what this would entail (it is unlikely
that we would use a proprietary solution in Vepsucci though, on other
devices and with other apps the trade-offs might be different).

The above is a separate but related issue to making the signup process
"mobile friendly"  see
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/894 for a
longish discussion.

Simon

Am 24.12.2015 um 15:58 schrieb Greg Troxel:
> Ilya Zverev  writes:
>
>> This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to use OSM
>> official social accounts.
> Can you explain what you mean by "OSM official social accounts"?
> Perhaps it is just me that doesn't get it, but I am not following what
> you really mean.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Greg Troxel]

Simon Poole  writes:

> If I understand Ilya correctly what he wants to avoid is (the hassle of)
> the authorisation step when using OAuth. During this process you need to
> login to openstreetmap.org with your credentials and then confirm that
> the app is allowed to access the API on your behalf.
>
> To see what is involved in practical terms you can try to use the HOT
> task manager, maproulette etc (or on a mobile device Vespucci, I assume
> Go Map! uses OAuth too, as any current third party app for OSM should).

Thanks; I am begininng to understand.  I dimly remember that Vespucci
used to store username/paassword, but recently I tried to upload some
changes and had to go through the oauth process.  Other than having to
know my osm password it was quite trivial, requiring typing 'gdt' and
the password and then changing a few checkboxes.   This seems like a
very nice solution and I particularly appreciate the fine-grained
permissions.

> The authorisation is a one time process (per app) and as such I'm not
> quite convinced that the whole discussion isn't a solution looking for a
> problem, but Ilya is correct in that it does involve the hassle of
> people remembering their google/FB/whatever password. Naturally on a
> mobile device you want to minimize typing in any case so I'm mildly in
> support of at least investigating what this would entail (it is unlikely
> that we would use a proprietary solution in Vepsucci though, on other
> devices and with other apps the trade-offs might be different).

The word "social" (that you didn't use :-) seems confounding in this
discussion.

So is the notion:

  One could link some third-party openid/openauth provider to one's OSM
  account, either manually, or because it was used to sign up.

  On a device, one might already be authorized for this third-party
  openauth/openid provider.

  A program that does OSM stuff (Vespucci, OsmAnd, firefox) might then
  authorize to osm.org via this third-party provider, requiring only a
  yes click to an "authorize to osm via foo" popup?


That seems harmless enough as long as it doesn't lead to proprietary
software showing up in Free programs,  doesn't result in any data
flowing to those third-party sites for users that don't already have a
relationship with them, and doesn't lead to apps suggesting that people
sign up with these other places.


> The above is a separate but related issue to making the signup process
> "mobile friendly"  see
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/894 for a
> longish discussion.

Thanks for the link.  That mostly makes sense, except for the notion
that Android is unusable without a Google account.  I will agree with
"base Android with google stuff (vs CM) is hostile to those without a
google account" though.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Дмитрий Киселев]

And just to mention.

Third party services on the login page and those services on the new user
page are different.

2015-12-28 23:34 GMT+05:00 Ilya Zverev :

> Hi Greg,
>
> Signing in on mobile devices is hard. You click "sign in" and then have to
> remember your login and password. There is an alternative method: facebook
> and google buttons on a login form. You can try them yourself: after
> linking your account with a social account, signing in is just a matter of
> pressing one button.
>
> Registering a new user is much harder on mobile, since you have to type
> everything twice, and then leave for another app to confirm a e-mail.
> Again, with a facebook/google button, you don't have to type anything:
> e-mail and display name are pre-filled, and password is optional. E-mail
> confirmation step is also omitted, since social networks have already
> validated your e-mail. So, registering with facebook or google is a
> straightforward process of 3-4 button clicks and no typing.
>
> But that's on a desktop browser. You most likely have logged in to some
> social accounts on your phone. For example, most android phones are
> unusable without a google account. And millions of iPhone users use
> facebook. So it's safe to assume most mobile users have a permanent login
> to a social account.
>
> I haven't used Vespucci in a while, but I can assume that when you try to
> sign in with it, it opens an inline browser with a login form. You can
> remember and type your login/password, or click on any social button. Alas,
> after that you would have to remember your google/facebook login and
> password, and type them in. Because even if you are already signed in to
> these in your system, browser panes do not share the account. So there is
> no simplification of a signing in process with social buttons in a mobile
> OSM editing app.
>
> I want to use a system-wide social account on mobile devices. So that a
> user could sign in in a mobile OSM app with a single button click (provided
> he/she is logged in to facebook/google on a device). To do that, I need to
> change osm.org source code a bit, adding an endpoint, and to allow
> third-party apps to create "tokens", identification strings, that osm.org
> would be able to use.
>
> The latter requires that the mobile app developer either knows two keys,
> which are currently stored only on osm.org server, or that any app that
> wants to allow social login to be registered by an OWG member who has
> access to facebook/google system account. When you click "facebook" button
> on osm.org login form, you are taken to an "OpenStreetMap" facebook app
> and are asked to allow it your name and e-mail. That is the social
> app/account I'm talking about. You cannot make a working social login in a
> mobile app without having some kind of access to that "OpenStreetMap"
> facebook app.
>
> IZ
>
> > 24 дек. 2015 г., в 17:58, Greg Troxel  написал(а):
> >
> >
> > Ilya Zverev  writes:
> >
> >> This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to use OSM
> >> official social accounts.
> >
> > Can you explain what you mean by "OSM official social accounts"?
> > Perhaps it is just me that doesn't get it, but I am not following what
> > you really mean.
>
>
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>



-- 
Thank you for your time. Best regards.
Dmitry.
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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ilya Zverev]

First, Facebook SDK is open-source. So there are no proprietary solutions 
related to this discussion. Google login SDK is probably open too, though I 
didn't check that.

The discussion with Martijn is about a different things: while he proposes to 
change the whole registration process altogether, possibly removing some 
important steps, I just want to use already existing processes from a mobile 
application. That would involve adding some endpoints to osm.org, and granting 
access to some mobile apps.

JOSM already circumvents the permissions confirmation step, but it still works 
only with login and password. I want to employ social accounts, so a user has 
nothing to type at all.

IZ


> 28 дек. 2015 г., в 15:15, Simon Poole  написал(а):
> 
> 
> If I understand Ilya correctly what he wants to avoid is (the hassle of) the 
> authorisation step when using OAuth. During this process you need to login to 
> openstreetmap.org with your credentials and then confirm that the app is 
> allowed to access the API on your behalf.
> 
> To see what is involved in practical terms you can try to use the HOT task 
> manager, maproulette etc (or on a mobile device Vespucci, I assume Go Map! 
> uses OAuth too, as any current third party app for OSM should).
> 
> The authorisation is a one time process (per app) and as such I'm not quite 
> convinced that the whole discussion isn't a solution looking for a problem, 
> but Ilya is correct in that it does involve the hassle of people remembering 
> their google/FB/whatever password. Naturally on a mobile device you want to 
> minimize typing in any case so I'm mildly in support of at least 
> investigating what this would entail (it is unlikely that we would use a 
> proprietary solution in Vepsucci though, on other devices and with other apps 
> the trade-offs might be different).
> 
> The above is a separate but related issue to making the signup process 
> "mobile friendly"  see 
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/894 for a 
> longish discussion.
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 24.12.2015 um 15:58 schrieb Greg Troxel:
>> Ilya Zverev 
>>  writes:
>> 
>> 
>>> This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to use OSM
>>> official social accounts.
>>> 
>> Can you explain what you mean by "OSM official social accounts"?
>> Perhaps it is just me that doesn't get it, but I am not following what
>> you really mean.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi Greg,

Signing in on mobile devices is hard. You click "sign in" and then have to 
remember your login and password. There is an alternative method: facebook and 
google buttons on a login form. You can try them yourself: after linking your 
account with a social account, signing in is just a matter of pressing one 
button.

Registering a new user is much harder on mobile, since you have to type 
everything twice, and then leave for another app to confirm a e-mail. Again, 
with a facebook/google button, you don't have to type anything: e-mail and 
display name are pre-filled, and password is optional. E-mail confirmation step 
is also omitted, since social networks have already validated your e-mail. So, 
registering with facebook or google is a straightforward process of 3-4 button 
clicks and no typing.

But that's on a desktop browser. You most likely have logged in to some social 
accounts on your phone. For example, most android phones are unusable without a 
google account. And millions of iPhone users use facebook. So it's safe to 
assume most mobile users have a permanent login to a social account.

I haven't used Vespucci in a while, but I can assume that when you try to sign 
in with it, it opens an inline browser with a login form. You can remember and 
type your login/password, or click on any social button. Alas, after that you 
would have to remember your google/facebook login and password, and type them 
in. Because even if you are already signed in to these in your system, browser 
panes do not share the account. So there is no simplification of a signing in 
process with social buttons in a mobile OSM editing app.

I want to use a system-wide social account on mobile devices. So that a user 
could sign in in a mobile OSM app with a single button click (provided he/she 
is logged in to facebook/google on a device). To do that, I need to change 
osm.org source code a bit, adding an endpoint, and to allow third-party apps to 
create "tokens", identification strings, that osm.org would be able to use.

The latter requires that the mobile app developer either knows two keys, which 
are currently stored only on osm.org server, or that any app that wants to 
allow social login to be registered by an OWG member who has access to 
facebook/google system account. When you click "facebook" button on osm.org 
login form, you are taken to an "OpenStreetMap" facebook app and are asked to 
allow it your name and e-mail. That is the social app/account I'm talking 
about. You cannot make a working social login in a mobile app without having 
some kind of access to that "OpenStreetMap" facebook app.

IZ

> 24 дек. 2015 г., в 17:58, Greg Troxel  написал(а):
> 
> 
> Ilya Zverev  writes:
> 
>> This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to use OSM
>> official social accounts.
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by "OSM official social accounts"?
> Perhaps it is just me that doesn't get it, but I am not following what
> you really mean.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ilya Zverev]

> 25 дек. 2015 г., в 8:36, Ineiev  написал(а):
> 
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 01:55:06PM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> My answer is, absolutely. If a random person walking with their phone adds
>> opening hours or marks a shop closed, I don't care if she/he is a part of
>> community or not.
> 
> What if they add copyright-encumbered data as well?

What if a person with a desktop editor and access to thousands of mapping 
portals and paper maps starts adding copyright-encumbered data? It is much 
easier from a desktop than from a mobile editor. Should we ban JOSM, since it 
is used for most questionable imports and copyright violations?

> 
>> I think it's time to stop taking OSM for a playground of a few geo-geeks.
>> There are thousands of people who fall for "free and open wiki map", and
>> millions who don't care, but who use our map and want to have the freshest
>> data on it.
> 
> I'm used to think that OSM is _the_ project for those who care; for those
> who don't, there is plenty of other possibilities, isn't it?

It was. It still is, but the definition of "care" is much wider now. HOT 
attracts people who care not about the map, but about refugees and crisis 
victims. With a wider mobile reach we can attract people caring about their 
neighbourhood accessible in a mapping application, but who don't care which map 
it is. For now, other mapping projects are luring these people, so why can't we?

IZ
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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 26/12/15 16:50, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


clearly something an ideal map would show you more prominently than a photo 
ever could

cheers,
Martin

It is not mutually exclusive. For example, I added the OSM tag for Salin:
/wikimedia_commons:/ File:Salin-Le-Chamossaire-aerial.JPG

But there is no click-able link to view this photo on the Map Data layer:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/717919375#map=19/46.32048/7.01828=D
as in case for the Wikipedia tag.

Another example, I also added the tag for the La Givrine train station 
 in Jura mountains: 
/wikimedia_commons:/  Category:La Givrine train station


There is no Wikipedia article for this small train station, but there is 
Wikimedia category 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:La_Givrine_train_station
as for all train stations. It is also not possible to click on the map 
and view easily the images in the category, even though the tag OSM tag 
exists and was added.


At the same time, the photos show what kind of train serves this route, 
that there is a small waiting hall with a bench, a radiator, a ticket 
distributer, etc. This information could be useful for those who plan a 
journey.


I hope in future, an integration with Wikimedia will be further 
developed and users could see both the map and the photos, at least from 
the Map Data layer.


brgds
O.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 26.12.2015 um 12:33 schrieb Oleksiy Muzalyev :
> 
> On the photo of the hamlet Salin however it is clearly visible that it is 
> separated from the Route des Ormonts by the deep ravine, which requires 
> special equipment, training and many hours to cross.


clearly something an ideal map would show you more prominently than a photo 
ever could

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Sometimes a map could be useless without a photo itself. For example, if 
one looks at the map of the hamlet Salin [1] in Alps, it is possible to 
get an idea to drive there by the Route des Ormonts. On the map and even 
on the satellite image it looks like this road passes just about half a 
kilometer nearby.


On the photo of the hamlet Salin however it is clearly visible that it 
is separated from the Route des Ormonts by the deep ravine, which 
requires special equipment, training and many hours to cross.


[1] http://osm.org/go/0CH_ottB?m=
[2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salin-Le-Chamossaire-aerial.JPG

brgds
Oleksiy

On 23/12/15 23:18, Frederik Ramm wrote:

... if people could just fire off
a quick edit to something without even signing in then surely we could
get more people to do just that - upload a quick OCR'd photo of shop
opening times or whatever. Point, shoot, upload, bam! - OSM improved in
5 seconds. I see that benefit and I would like to have it.
...
Bye
Frederik




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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ineiev]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 01:55:06PM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> My answer is, absolutely. If a random person walking with their phone adds
> opening hours or marks a shop closed, I don't care if she/he is a part of
> community or not.

What if they add copyright-encumbered data as well?

> I think it's time to stop taking OSM for a playground of a few geo-geeks.
> There are thousands of people who fall for "free and open wiki map", and
> millions who don't care, but who use our map and want to have the freshest
> data on it.

I'm used to think that OSM is _the_ project for those who care; for those
who don't, there is plenty of other possibilities, isn't it?

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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ilya Zverev]

My answer is, absolutely. If a random person walking with their phone adds 
opening hours or marks a shop closed, I don't care if she/he is a part of 
community or not. Having them logged in with an OSM account makes them 
contactable, and that's all we need.

I think it's time to stop taking OSM for a playground of a few geo-geeks. There 
are thousands of people who fall for "free and open wiki map", and millions who 
don't care, but who use our map and want to have the freshest data on it. Can 
we allow people with a slightly less responsibility here? Again, they are 
signing with their social accounts, that give much more private information 
about them, than an e-mail address. They are surely as contactable as regular 
OSM users.

As for 5 seconds, I am not proposing to drop CTs and descriptions of the 
project on sign up. Note that the original post is about signing in, not 
signing up. Of course, signing up would also be made easier, but I agree that 
new users, no matter how casual, should agree to CTs and learn a couple things 
about OpenStreetMap. This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to 
use OSM official social accounts.

IZ

> My question is: Do we want to encourage casual editing?
> 
> And my answer is "not 100% sure but perhaps rather not".

> There are some benefits to casual editing; if people could just fire off a 
> quick edit to something without even signing in then surely we could get more 
> people to do just that - upload a quick OCR'd photo of shop opening times or 
> whatever. Point, shoot, upload, bam! - OSM improved in 5 seconds. I see that 
> benefit and I would like to have it.
> 
> But I also view us OSM contributors as a community. We share something. We 
> care for this project together. We participate in various communication 
> channels. We watch our backyard. We chat up new users and invite them to 
> meetings.
> 
> I think it is important for people to make a decision to join this community. 
> This decision is not just a quick "I agree" screen where you put your work 
> under a certain license; it also means you should know that you're signing up 
> for something here; that you take responsibility; that you have to be 
> contactable, and will be contacted, about your contributions.
> 
> Making it too easy to breeze through the signup process, on a mobile device, 
> using your stored credentials from elsewhere - how can we expect anyone who 
> signs up this way to understand what this project is about, what he's signing 
> up to?
> 
> "Making signup easier" is certainly a good goal to have, but signup includes 
> getting people to understand OSM. A workflow that lets people sign up in 5 
> seconds but lands us with users who don't even know what the consequences of 
> their actions are is not a step forward, it is detrimental to the project in 
> my opinion.
> 
> This is not saying you shouldn't write an easy to use mobile editor, or you 
> shouldn't attempt to reduce the mobile signup workflow to a few clicks, but 
> from anyone who ships an app that does quick signups I'd like to see a 
> concept of how they intend to make sure that users understand what they are 
> signing up for (legally and socially).

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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Greg Troxel]

Ilya Zverev  writes:

> This can be made a part of a policy for allowing apps to use OSM
> official social accounts.

Can you explain what you mean by "OSM official social accounts"?
Perhaps it is just me that doesn't get it, but I am not following what
you really mean.


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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   I have a rather non-technical remark about this recurring "we need to
make sign-up easier" topic.

My question is: Do we want to encourage casual editing?

And my answer is "not 100% sure but perhaps rather not".

There are some benefits to casual editing; if people could just fire off
a quick edit to something without even signing in then surely we could
get more people to do just that - upload a quick OCR'd photo of shop
opening times or whatever. Point, shoot, upload, bam! - OSM improved in
5 seconds. I see that benefit and I would like to have it.

But I also view us OSM contributors as a community. We share something.
We care for this project together. We participate in various
communication channels. We watch our backyard. We chat up new users and
invite them to meetings.

I think it is important for people to make a decision to join this
community. This decision is not just a quick "I agree" screen where you
put your work under a certain license; it also means you should know
that you're signing up for something here; that you take responsibility;
that you have to be contactable, and will be contacted, about your
contributions.

Making it too easy to breeze through the signup process, on a mobile
device, using your stored credentials from elsewhere - how can we expect
anyone who signs up this way to understand what this project is about,
what he's signing up to?

"Making signup easier" is certainly a good goal to have, but signup
includes getting people to understand OSM. A workflow that lets people
sign up in 5 seconds but lands us with users who don't even know what
the consequences of their actions are is not a step forward, it is
detrimental to the project in my opinion.

This is not saying you shouldn't write an easy to use mobile editor, or
you shouldn't attempt to reduce the mobile signup workflow to a few
clicks, but from anyone who ships an app that does quick signups I'd
like to see a concept of how they intend to make sure that users
understand what they are signing up for (legally and socially).

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi everyone,

Suppose I'm working on a mobile editor for iOS and Android. You can't 
edit anything without signing in, so first a user has to enter their 
login and password. If they are not registered in OSM, too bad: the 
registration workflow is overly complex for mobile. One has to enter 
login/password/e-mail, wait for confirmation, switch to mailing app, 
click a link, close a browser, return to the editing app, enter login 
and password again.


But osm.org for some time has Facebook and Google login. They don't 
require password and e-mail confirmation, and most mobile phone users 
has at least one. For example, most Android phone users have a Google 
account. There are native SDKs for both of these networks, so one 
doesn't even have to enter their login and password: these are stored 
somewhere on the phone.


I mention "native", because the common way of authentication on osm.org, 
with a WebView, won't work: you would have to enter your Facebook or 
Google credentials from scratch. Which is not simpler than registering 
on osm.org.


I would like osm.org to support authentication via native social SDKs. 
It would benefit current and future mobile editing apps, and would 
drastically increase the number of OSM editors (that is, users). I'm 
writing all this, so authors of other editing apps could show their support.


To do that, we need two things. First, authentication on osm.org with 
social login tokens bypassing omniauth web flow. For Facebook, this pull 
request https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1114 
is a way, although not perfect. I assume there is something like that 
for Google.


Second, there are social accounts, to which official OSM social logins 
are linked. E.g. a facebook app. To allow signing in with a native SDK, 
an app id should be registered with the social account. That is, we need 
a policy for including mobile editing apps there, and a person 
responsible for that. I've sent a draft to OWG, which has these items:


- The application code must be published and accessible by members of OWG.
- There must be a downloadable version of the app with the usual login 
via a password.
- The application should have some data editing capabilities, for which 
signing in is required, and must use proper changeset tags.
- The application must already have some releases, and must be used, 
with at least 100 users / downloads. It must have a wiki page and at 
least one related blog entry.
- Secret keys provided by social apps must not be included anywhere in 
the application: not in code, not in resources, etc. They can be used 
only on a server.


Well, it's only a draft, intended mostly to start a conversation. There 
is a way to circumvent this, but it includes making osm.org accept any 
tokens from any social accounts/apps, which is not good.


The third step would be adding an API for signing in and registering new 
members, but that is too complex and not a topic of this discussion.


What do you think of this?

My goal is to have "Facebook"/"Google" buttons, a single press on which 
is all that's needed for editing OpenStreetMap (well, there are extra 
steps for registering, but the idea is the same).


IZ

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Re: [OSM-dev] Using native social SDK for signing in to OSM on mobile

[Greg Troxel]

Ilya Zverev  writes:

> I would like osm.org to support authentication via native social
> SDKs. It would benefit current and future mobile editing apps, and
> would drastically increase the number of OSM editors (that is,
> users). I'm writing all this, so authors of other editing apps could
> show their support.

I am having a little trouble understanding this.  Do you mean using iD
on openstreetmap.org?   Getting a new osm account based on some other
account?

By "native SDK", do you mean to include proprietary software?
Non-published interfaces?


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