Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Colin,

I fully agree with you, but I don't want to participate in these "religious" 
discussions too much.
I thought about writing a tool to help doing such mechanical edits, but I doubt 
that this would be
welcomed, so I'll stick to mkgmap development and small manual changes.

Gerd



Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:21:16 +0200
From: colin.sm...@xs4all.nl
To: dev@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + 
generator:source


 

 
As there is an indefinite number of data consumers, this is of course 
impossible... How would you ever be able to update the tagging if you have to 
get consent or acquiescence from every data consumer? What is your suggestion 
for sorting out "spaghetti tagging"? How do we ever do any "refactoring"?

Sorry for the IT terms, but discussions analogous to this one come up extremely 
regularly in the IT business, and the bottom line is that the bullet needs to 
be bitten and you have to get your wallet out to sort things out occasionally. 
If you don't, your maintenance costs will sooner or later inexorably spiral out 
of control. And anyone who says that this can be prevented by careful planning, 
doesn't understand how agile businesses need to be to survive. The costs can be 
somewhat mitigated by appropriate architectural decisions (analogous to having 
tagging schemes that are e.g. extensible and easily maintainable) but never 
eliminated entirely.

So where do we go from here? Manual review, re-survey and retagging?

//colin

On 2015-10-13 10:49, Chris Hill wrote:



On 13/10/15 08:56, GerdP wrote:
Hi all,

during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where
OSM inspector
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
complains about something. Doing that I commented
this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705

As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
remove the tag
power_source=xyz
if the element also has the tag
generator:source=xyz

as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.

If this isn't the right list, please forward it.



The tag you propose to remove is harmless. How do you know which tags data 
consumers are using? When you have confirmed with every data consumer that the 
change you propose will not affect them, or they have agreed to change, then I 
will agree, until then I disagree with this mechanical edit.



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[OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[GerdP]

Hi all,

during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where 
OSM inspector 
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
complains about something. Doing that I commented
this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705

As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
remove the tag 
power_source=xyz
if the element also has the tag
generator:source=xyz

as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.

If this isn't the right list, please forward it.

Gerd




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View this message in context: 
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Chris Hill]

On 13/10/15 08:56, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where
OSM inspector
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
complains about something. Doing that I commented
this changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705

As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
remove the tag
power_source=xyz
if the element also has the tag
generator:source=xyz

as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.

If this isn't the right list, please forward it.


The tag you propose to remove is harmless. How do you know which tags 
data consumers are using? When you have confirmed with every data 
consumer that the change you propose will not affect them, or they have 
agreed to change, then I will agree, until then I disagree with this 
mechanical edit.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Colin Smale]

 

As there is an indefinite number of data consumers, this is of course
impossible... How would you ever be able to update the tagging if you
have to get consent or acquiescence from every data consumer? What is
your suggestion for sorting out "spaghetti tagging"? How do we ever do
any "refactoring"? 

Sorry for the IT terms, but discussions analogous to this one come up
extremely regularly in the IT business, and the bottom line is that the
bullet needs to be bitten and you have to get your wallet out to sort
things out occasionally. If you don't, your maintenance costs will
sooner or later inexorably spiral out of control. And anyone who says
that this can be prevented by careful planning, doesn't understand how
agile businesses need to be to survive. The costs can be somewhat
mitigated by appropriate architectural decisions (analogous to having
tagging schemes that are e.g. extensible and easily maintainable) but
never eliminated entirely. 

So where do we go from here? Manual review, re-survey and retagging? 

//colin 

On 2015-10-13 10:49, Chris Hill wrote: 

> On 13/10/15 08:56, GerdP wrote: 
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> during the last days I've checked hundreds of places where
>> OSM inspector
>> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/
>> complains about something. Doing that I commented
>> this changeset:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/8335705
>> 
>> As don-vip suggests in his reply I propose a mechanical edit :
>> remove the tag
>> power_source=xyz
>> if the element also has the tag
>> generator:source=xyz
>> 
>> as JOSM complains about the usage of power_source.
>> 
>> If this isn't the right list, please forward it.
> The tag you propose to remove is harmless. How do you know which tags data 
> consumers are using? When you have confirmed with every data consumer that 
> the change you propose will not affect them, or they have agreed to change, 
> then I will agree, until then I disagree with this mechanical edit.
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> my motivation is simple:
> JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> the wiki is also clear:
> "Use generator:source
> =*instead."

Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community as a
whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical edit. It
requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly preset or
"vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.

> I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> time looking at these obsolete tags, 

In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[François Lacombe]

(Sent from phone)

Hi Gerd,

Such an edit can improve data consistency and your idea sounds good.

As a member of the team who supported the power refinement proposal
including the generator: source key, I just warn regarding the generator
value which was used instead of power=plant.
Power_source or generator:source should be used on devices which are
generating power.
May we can take advantage of such an edit to move this information on
devices instead on buildings or sites ?

All the best

François
Le 13 oct. 2015 9:32 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > my motivation is simple:
> > JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> > the wiki is also clear:
> > "Use generator:source
> > =*instead."
>
> Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community as a
> whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical edit. It
> requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly preset or
> "vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
> mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.
>
> > I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> > time looking at these obsolete tags,
>
> In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Chris,
my motivation is simple:JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,the 
wiki is also clear:"Use generator:source=*instead."
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:power_source
I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wastingtime looking at these 
obsolete tags, so I think a cleanup isthe best solution. 
Gerd


> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + 
> generator:source
> To: gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com
> From: o...@raggedred.net
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:43:48 +0100
> 
> On 13/10/15 18:07, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> >
> > my understanding is that those data consumers
> > which were interested in the deprecated tag
> > are very likely also interested in the newer one.
> > So, they will have code to recognize both versions.
> > Users that evaluate only the old version are
> > prpbably not really interested in it.
> >
> Demonstrate that by feedback from all the real data users, not just your 
> hunch, and I might change my mind.
> 
> Perhaps you don't understand how much deep-felt objection there is to 
> mechanical edits. They are often reverted and quite rightly so in my 
> opinion. Unsurveyed mechanical edits often do more harm than good. As I 
> said before, the original tag is harmless, why would you feel you know 
> enough about someone else's carefully chosen tags to steam roll over 
> them to satisfy your idea of tidiness?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers, Chris
> user: chillly
> 
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Re: [OSM-dev] proposal for mechanical edit reg. power_source + generator:source

[Simon Poole]

I would have thought that it is obvious, but perhaps not. This
discussion clearly belongs on the tagging mailing list and not here.

Simon

Am 13.10.2015 um 22:25 schrieb François Lacombe:
>
> (Sent from phone)
>
> Hi Gerd,
>
> Such an edit can improve data consistency and your idea sounds good.
>
> As a member of the team who supported the power refinement proposal
> including the generator: source key, I just warn regarding the
> generator value which was used instead of power=plant.
> Power_source or generator:source should be used on devices which are
> generating power.
> May we can take advantage of such an edit to move this information on
> devices instead on buildings or sites ?
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le 13 oct. 2015 9:32 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  > a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/13/2015 08:10 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> > my motivation is simple:
> > JOSM claims that the old tag should not be used,
> > the wiki is also clear:
> > "Use generator:source
> > =*instead."
>
> Yes, but JOSM presets and Wiki pages are not made by the community
> as a
> whole, and can never serve as a reason for running a mechanical
> edit. It
> requires only a very small number of people to devise a silly
> preset or
> "vote" a tag to be deprecated; this absolutely must not lead to others
> mass-editing OSM according to the wishes of that minority.
>
> > I assume that I am not the only JOSM user who is wasting
> > time looking at these obsolete tags,
>
> In that case, a change in JOSM would be the best solution.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org
>   ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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> dev@openstreetmap.org 
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>
>
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