Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Petr Nejedly writes: Well, as long as Undo is reliable, making useful feature harder to use/discover is a nonsense. I helped her find Undo. scares me a bit, though. Ctrl+Z works all around the world and it's even listed in the Edit menu as usual. She moved the way back where it was. (but of course she didn't move it *exactly* back where it was.) But while we can teach people, we need to understand that they have a certain level of computer skillset, and need to work with them at their level. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Russell Nelson wrote: 1) First (and I realize this is probably a Java / Mac thing), we couldn't paste a URL into the URL window. Fortunately, the drag-n-drop code worked (massive hoorays to whomever added that). There is a bug report and a fix for that. I was unsure but now I believe I should really check it in. This fix moves the text from the URL field into the text above. 4) She selected a way, and then tried to move the node because the road had been extended. Of course, she moved the entire way. (This mnay not be easy to fix). Good suggestions wellcome. There are perfect valid reasons to move whole areas, but probably the common case is that it is unwanted. A solution which makes moving everything a bit more complicated without disabling it totally would help here I think. 5) She went into insert node/way mode with the way still selected, in order to extend it. It ignored her clicks. This is a usability fail. Never ignore a user's input. If it can't be used in this context, then say why. You're right. There should be a useful handling of the there is something already selected case in add mode. 5) It *really* bothered her that in insert node/way mode, she had a red line from the tail node. She is resourceful and figured out that ESC would terminate the adding. But that de-selected the way, so she had to go into select mode, go back and select it again in order to tag it. Fixing http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/1937 would help here a lot to get rid of Add mode at all for the beginning users. 6) You geeks must really like tedium, because it's wicked boring to have to select/delete, select/delete, select/delete, select/delete all these inapplicable tags. I reassured her that we don't like it either, but that didn't serve to explain why she couldn't select a range of tags to delete them. Has been fixed. New JOSM allows to press Delete multiple times to delete multiple entries. Selecting multiple entries is still not supported, as only the delete button would react to a multi-selection and this is bad UI as well :-) It's my job to help people map. If I have to fix JOSM to get them to map, then that's what I have to do. But I'm also really NOT interested in taking over JOSM development; that's NOT my job. So please tell me how I can contribute to JOSM in a way that helps me recruit new mappers, but which is also acceptable to all the currently JOSM users. Send patches. Before doing larger changes asking here about the way to do is a good idea. Fixing bugs in the bug tracker is helpful as well. Some of the problems you mentioned are already entered there. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Sascha Silbe schrieb: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:22:50AM +0100, Dirk Stöcker wrote: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/1937 How do I get a Trac account on josm.openstreetmap.de? I'd like to comment on that bug and receive update notifications, but not make my email address public. You don't need to have an account there. Just type in the comment and (optionally) put your name Sascha (or so) into the corresponding field. Regards, ULFL ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Hi, Sascha Silbe wrote: Giving it to the Trac installation (= only admin can see it) isn't the same as making it public (= will get SPAM on it). Then use one of the addresses you use for this mailing list; this mailing list is public and you will get spam on all of them anyway. So is it possible to get a Trac account for josm.openstreetmap.de at all? Yes it is possible, but I have to create accounts manually and I refuse to create an account just because someone wants to follow a ticket and not enter his address. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 01:08:35PM +0100, Pieren wrote: +1 for making this harder to activate (separate mode, ctrl+drag, whatever). It's pretty annoying when trying to select a region in a densely mapped area. -1 I'm moving ways. I cannot say every day but I move ways when I: - improve roundabouts (position, circle) - draw dual carriageways (copy, paste, reverse, move) - draw areas like buildings or parks How would e.g. having to press Ctrl in addition to dragging impact your workflow? I don't see why you're opposed to making it harder to _unintentionally_ using it. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Hi, Shaun McDonald wrote: Um, I don't understand your second sentence there. Do you mean that the fix is to set the focus to the textfield rather than the button? On Mac OS X it seems that the textfield isn't selected by default, however if you click in the text field, and use the keyboard shortcut to paste it will work. I *think* the problem is that there is a note in the text field saying paste your url here, and when you focus the text field, that note gets selected which, on some platforms, replaces the paste buffer with paste your url here, and in any case breaks pasting because you would have to delete it first. If the message paste your url here becomes a label above the text box, and the box remains empty, pasting should be a no-brainer. I would really like to have relation tag/value style editing used for the tag editing of nodes and ways, with the addition of the click to delete by clicking a x on the right hand side. It would mean that I wouldn't have to go through a dialog when editing data. I know it could introduce poorer ui for greater useability. Maybe a mix of the 2? Yeah, let's go for the poorer ui and keep the bad usability ,-) Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Sascha Silbe napsal(a): On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 01:08:35PM +0100, Pieren wrote: +1 for making this harder to activate (separate mode, ctrl+drag, whatever). It's pretty annoying when trying to select a region in a densely mapped area. -1 -1 I'm moving ways. I cannot say every day but I move ways when I: - improve roundabouts (position, circle) - draw dual carriageways (copy, paste, reverse, move) - draw areas like buildings or parks How would e.g. having to press Ctrl in addition to dragging impact your workflow? I don't see why you're opposed to making it harder to _unintentionally_ using it. Well, as long as Undo is reliable, making useful feature harder to use/discover is a nonsense. I helped her find Undo. scares me a bit, though. Ctrl+Z works all around the world and it's even listed in the Edit menu as usual. -- Petr Nenik Nejedly, NetBeans/Sun Microsystems, http://www.netbeans.org 355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation! ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
On 16 Jan 2009, at 13:24, Petr Nejedly wrote: Sascha Silbe napsal(a): On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 01:08:35PM +0100, Pieren wrote: +1 for making this harder to activate (separate mode, ctrl+drag, whatever). It's pretty annoying when trying to select a region in a densely mapped area. -1 -1 I'm moving ways. I cannot say every day but I move ways when I: - improve roundabouts (position, circle) - draw dual carriageways (copy, paste, reverse, move) - draw areas like buildings or parks How would e.g. having to press Ctrl in addition to dragging impact your workflow? I don't see why you're opposed to making it harder to _unintentionally_ using it. Well, as long as Undo is reliable, making useful feature harder to use/discover is a nonsense. I helped her find Undo. scares me a bit, though. Ctrl+Z works all around the world and it's even listed in the Edit menu as usual. How many newbie computer users know about undo? I'd say not that many. Shaun ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Shaun McDonald wrote: Um, I don't understand your second sentence there. Do you mean that the fix is to set the focus to the textfield rather than the button? On Mac OS X it seems that the textfield isn't selected by default, however if you click in the text field, and use the keyboard shortcut to paste it will work. I *think* the problem is that there is a note in the text field saying paste your url here, and when you focus the text field, that note gets selected which, on some platforms, replaces the paste buffer with paste your url here, and in any case breaks pasting because you would have to delete it first. If the message paste your url here becomes a label above the text box, and the box remains empty, pasting should be a no-brainer. Yes, that's exactly the issue, see http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2019 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
2009/1/16 Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-gis-osm-josm-...@silbe.org: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 02:21:27PM +0100, Pieren wrote: Where is the limit of making harder commands for _intentional_ actions just to prevent _unintentional_ actions ? It is very hard to find the right balance between newcomers and experimented users. This isn't about newcomers vs. experienced users. I _am_ experienced and during my normal work I _often_ move objects when I want to select something instead, just because JOSM binds two separate actions to the same input. Huh? What two separate actions? The same action (moving) _should_ need the same input (click and drag) regardless what is to be moved. If there's a config option I have to set to prevent it from happening: Fine for me. I need special configs for most programs anyway, this won't make a difference. Having said above in my work with JOSM accidentally dragging a way almost only happens when I want to add a new node by clicking a virtual node. Right now CTRL *prevents* creating a new node when clicking on a virtual node. So from this experience I would see reversal of CTRL+click on a way as improvement. Rolf ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
2009/1/17 Rolf Bode-Meyer rob...@gmail.com 2009/1/16 Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-gis-osm-josm-...@silbe.org: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 02:21:27PM +0100, Pieren wrote: Where is the limit of making harder commands for _intentional_ actions just to prevent _unintentional_ actions ? It is very hard to find the right balance between newcomers and experimented users. This isn't about newcomers vs. experienced users. I _am_ experienced and during my normal work I _often_ move objects when I want to select something instead, just because JOSM binds two separate actions to the same input. Huh? What two separate actions? The same action (moving) _should_ need the same input (click and drag) regardless what is to be moved. I guess it's the select box and drag move being both the same that's referred to here... If there's a config option I have to set to prevent it from happening: Fine for me. I need special configs for most programs anyway, this won't make a difference. Having said above in my work with JOSM accidentally dragging a way almost only happens when I want to add a new node by clicking a virtual node. Right now CTRL *prevents* creating a new node when clicking on a virtual node. So from this experience I would see reversal of CTRL+click on a way as improvement. I preferred the old modeful JOSM, but, short of splitting out the modes again, perhaps some tweaking of the sensitivity to nearby objects would make it more difficult to select features you don't want to and easier to select them you do, as long as you are reasonably accurate with your clicking... d ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 08:49:45PM +0100, Rolf Bode-Meyer wrote: This isn't about newcomers vs. experienced users. I _am_ experienced and during my normal work I _often_ move objects when I want to select something instead, just because JOSM binds two separate actions to the same input. Huh? What two separate actions? Region Select and Moving. Just depending on where exactly between two ways the pointer is, JOSM does different things. If it's too close to one of them, it will move it, instead of starting to select a region. If ways are too close together (remember: densely mapped area), it's impossible to do a region select. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] JOSM Fail
I was trying to show somebody how to use JOSM today. Massive fail. Executive summary: Do people know that JOSM has these newbie usability problems, and if I put resources into fixing them (without removing functionality or impeding experienced users), would those fixes make it back into the source tree? 1) First (and I realize this is probably a Java / Mac thing), we couldn't paste a URL into the URL window. Fortunately, the drag-n-drop code worked (massive hoorays to whomever added that). 2) JOSM has the usual GIS problem that it will happily render off-screen with no indication that anything is wrong. True, this is fine for the sophisticated user, but nobody starts off sophisticated. Perhaps if JOSM noticed that nothing got drawn within the clipping frame, and drew an arrow in the middle saying Your data is thataway, it wouldn't be a big black box of fail. 3) She may have used an older version (but definitely has used potlatch), but the first thing she did was select a box to try to zoom in. She successfully zommed in with Zoom to Select, but then tried to zoom in again, and succeeded in grabbing and moving all those points. That *would* have been massive fail if she found the upload button, even if she did manage to move them back to very nearly the right location. I helped her find Undo. 4) She selected a way, and then tried to move the node because the road had been extended. Of course, she moved the entire way. (This mnay not be easy to fix). 5) She went into insert node/way mode with the way still selected, in order to extend it. It ignored her clicks. This is a usability fail. Never ignore a user's input. If it can't be used in this context, then say why. 5) It *really* bothered her that in insert node/way mode, she had a red line from the tail node. She is resourceful and figured out that ESC would terminate the adding. But that de-selected the way, so she had to go into select mode, go back and select it again in order to tag it. 6) You geeks must really like tedium, because it's wicked boring to have to select/delete, select/delete, select/delete, select/delete all these inapplicable tags. I reassured her that we don't like it either, but that didn't serve to explain why she couldn't select a range of tags to delete them. I've been hired this week as a Community Ambassador by Cloudmade. It's my job to help people map. If I have to fix JOSM to get them to map, then that's what I have to do. But I'm also really NOT interested in taking over JOSM development; that's NOT my job. So please tell me how I can contribute to JOSM in a way that helps me recruit new mappers, but which is also acceptable to all the currently JOSM users. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com | Delegislation is a slippery Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | slope to prosperity. 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | Fewer laws, more freedom. Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | (Not a GOP supporter). ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Fail
Russ, Russell Nelson wrote: Executive summary: Do people know that JOSM has these newbie usability problems, and if I put resources into fixing them (without removing functionality or impeding experienced users), would those fixes make it back into the source tree? Sure. We're always happy about improvements. JOSM is not primarily geared at newbies or casual users and some things that new users find annoying may actually help an advanced user to be productive, so *if* a decision has to be made we might be biased towards catering for the advanced user. However, the examples you mentioned seem entirely fixable without impeding experienced mappers. Most of what you mention has probably annoyed a lot of people but rather than fix them, people just find their way around it. 1) First (and I realize this is probably a Java / Mac thing), we couldn't paste a URL into the URL window. Fortunately, the drag-n-drop code worked (massive hoorays to whomever added that). I think there's a bug/feature that selects the contents of the text box when it gets the focus, which is desirable when moving there by keyboard but undesirable when focusing it by mouse. 2) JOSM has the usual GIS problem that it will happily render off-screen with no indication that anything is wrong. There's a zoom to data function that helps. If you have NOT done anything else before, it will automatically zoom to your downloaded data. Perhaps if JOSM noticed that nothing got drawn within the clipping frame, and drew an arrow in the middle saying Your data is thataway, it wouldn't be a big black box of fail. What if you're zoomed in rather far and your data is everywhere but here? 3) She may have used an older version (but definitely has used potlatch), but the first thing she did was select a box to try to zoom in. I don't know how we could make it clearer than having the well-established magnifying glass symbol in the task bar on the left (AND the mousewheel AND ctrl +/-) to zoom but if you have an idea let's hear it. She successfully zommed in with Zoom to Select, but then tried to zoom in again, and succeeded in grabbing and moving all those points. That *would* have been massive fail if she found the upload button, even if she did manage to move them back to very nearly the right location. I helped her find Undo. The upload button would have told her that she is about to modify a gazillion objects (also, the command stack in the right-hand side window should have said something like move 384 objects or so). I firmly believe in users who read what the software tells them and I refuse to write software for users who cannot (or refuse to) read; but again, if you have a better idea to avoid doom when people use JOSM in this way, it can't hurt to be on the safe side. 4) She selected a way, and then tried to move the node because the road had been extended. Of course, she moved the entire way. (This mnay not be easy to fix). Maybe the moving of entire ways should be removed completely or at least moved out of the standard editing mode; in my time as a mapper the only use I ever had for it was nudging buildings. 5) She went into insert node/way mode with the way still selected, in order to extend it. It ignored her clicks. This is a usability fail. Never ignore a user's input. If it can't be used in this context, then say why. I think it would be sensible to try and extend the way from the near end in this scenario. You are right, JOSM currently just ignores clicks if it finds it cannot extend the way for some reason. 5) It *really* bothered her that in insert node/way mode, she had a red line from the tail node. She is resourceful and figured out that ESC would terminate the adding. But that de-selected the way, so she had to go into select mode, go back and select it again in order to tag it. This is a problem for many. The best solution probably is switching off the helper line if people press ESC, but not deselecting the object. 6) You geeks must really like tedium, because it's wicked boring to have to select/delete, select/delete, select/delete, select/delete all these inapplicable tags. I reassured her that we don't like it either, but that didn't serve to explain why she couldn't select a range of tags to delete them. Deleting tags is a relatively uncommon operation for us so maybe we just haven't noticed. It should be easy to allow ranges of tags to be removed. Is this a special TIGER use case? I've been hired this week as a Community Ambassador by Cloudmade. It's my job to help people map. If I have to fix JOSM to get them to map, then that's what I have to do. You're welcome to help with JOSM development. You might want to discuss your planned changes on the list before you start working on them, just in case some other developer is working on the same issue. But if you're not really interested and just view JOSM development as clearing
