Re: [dev] Announcing a couple small X11 utilities
On Tue, Jul 04, 2023 at 04:37:23PM -0400, Sebastian LaVine wrote: > I'm curious, what inspired you to write this instead of using xwd? Never really knew that it existed :) Going by the manpage, it seems to do a bit more than I'd like, but overall it doesn't seem too bad. - NRK
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 19:37:14 -0400 s...@plunder.tech wrote: > > which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal emulator for > > example > > which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with bugs and > > compatibility > > problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any useful features. > > I use ST without any patching, and have done so for years. It is very fast > and > works flawlessly in my experience. All the other terminals have serious > issues. *rolls eyes*
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
> which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal emulator for > example > which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with bugs and > compatibility > problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any useful features. I use ST without any patching, and have done so for years. It is very fast and works flawlessly in my experience. All the other terminals have serious issues.
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
If you don't care then why are you here? I'm on this mailing list to stay in the loop on updates and patches to software I use. Not present evangelical arguments to someone who doesn't know what to believe in. Use the software, or don't. No one is holding a gun to your head.
Re: [dev] Announcing a couple small X11 utilities
Cool stuff! On Tue Jul 4, 2023 at 9:51 AM EDT, NRK wrote: > ... > > sxot > > > This one is a *very minimal* screenshot tool. I wrote this when I > realized that other cli screenshot tools (scrot, maim) do way too much. > > sxot on the other hand is meant to follow the unix philosophy - it > simply takes a screenshot and outputs a binary ppm image to stdout. > Any other functionalities are supposed to be handled by more specialized > tools. E.g sx4 (see below) for selection, optipng to convert to png, > xclip for copying to clipboard etc. > > Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sxot > SLoC: ~251 > Dependencies: Xlib, libXfixes > > ... I'm curious, what inspired you to write this instead of using xwd? I've been using a script[0] based on that for many years now. [0]: https://git.sr.ht/~smlavine/scripts/tree/master/item/src/shoot
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Tue, Jul 04, 2023 at 01:16:34PM -0500, Dave Blanchard wrote: > I take a practical approach. I use simple programs when they do the job well, > and more complex programs when they get the job done better. Sometimes a > simple program can be useful for certain jobs, such as ones involving shell > scripting, whereas a complex program may be more useful for example in other > applications, such as using Solidworks for engineering work. LaTeX is > certainly a bloated monstrosity, but the damn thing is useful for a lot of > different tasks. > > People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity > above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal > emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with > bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive patching to add in > any useful features. The developers are also basement-dwelling losers, total > raging assholes who take personal offense to the suggestion that their code > should be better commented or that someone might fork the code to make an > improved version. > true > I tried ST for a time before realizing it was trash and just switched back to > Xterm, the gold standard of functional X11 terminal emulators, which the ST > developers talked shit about, calling "bloated" in their documentation, and > saying the code wasn't good. Actually it is not bloated, the code quality is > much higher than ST (and is actually commented!), It Just Works(TM), and it's > noticeably faster as well when ST is patched with the juvenile "scrollback > buffer support" implementation--which calls malloc() once for every line(!) > of the scrollback buffer. > > Take anything that a religious cult member says with a grain of salt. > > Dave > -- Kind regards, Hiltjo
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
I take a practical approach. I use simple programs when they do the job well, and more complex programs when they get the job done better. Sometimes a simple program can be useful for certain jobs, such as ones involving shell scripting, whereas a complex program may be more useful for example in other applications, such as using Solidworks for engineering work. LaTeX is certainly a bloated monstrosity, but the damn thing is useful for a lot of different tasks. People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any useful features. The developers are also basement-dwelling losers, total raging assholes who take personal offense to the suggestion that their code should be better commented or that someone might fork the code to make an improved version. I tried ST for a time before realizing it was trash and just switched back to Xterm, the gold standard of functional X11 terminal emulators, which the ST developers talked shit about, calling "bloated" in their documentation, and saying the code wasn't good. Actually it is not bloated, the code quality is much higher than ST (and is actually commented!), It Just Works(TM), and it's noticeably faster as well when ST is patched with the juvenile "scrollback buffer support" implementation--which calls malloc() once for every line(!) of the scrollback buffer. Take anything that a religious cult member says with a grain of salt. Dave Oof, I feel like that's gonna start one hell of a flame war right now. About suckless's software. Personally, I've got an impression that it's not about personal use. Like, you aren't really expected to install ST as you main and everyday terminal. These programs are more of a collection of tools that should be combined and embedded as a foundation for something bigger. Firefox will always be better than surf, it just will. But replacing Firefox is not what surf should strive for. It's more of a tool for situations when you need an ability to embed a website and full-blown Firefox or Chrome will be an overkill. That said, if there are any compatibility problems _(which there probably are, since why shouldn't there be any compatibility problems when your main goal when writing software is to make it as small as possible)_ than that kind of ruins the whole purpose of all of this... -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
I have analysed this a while ago, so I would point you to this nice article by me. https://humaaraartha.in/sagar/trusting_no_one.html Thanking you Sagar Acharya https://humaaraartha.in 4 Jul 2023, 21:36 by nikita.nikita.kras...@gmail.com: > Just bear with me on this one, this is not a bait or a troll, I promise. I > genuinely fell very confused. > > What would be the point of using minimalist software if bloated and > excessively complex programs completely satisfy all my needs? I am not the > kind of person that works directly with hardware, but it's not like I use my > system only as a bootloader for a web browser either. It's just that my > current workflow feels pretty complete to me. > > Take LaTeX, for example. I do all of my LaTeX in TeXstudio and, frankly, I'm > satisfied with it. Autocompletion is there by default and there are many > shortcuts that I don't need to set up myself. I simply use the all of this. > > You could say that TeXstudio is pretty bloated and isn't that flexible in > terms of configuring and using it in conjunction with other applications. And > you'd be right. But if I'll try to use more minimalist software like Neovim I > would spend an endless amount of time configuring and patching all the > features I now take for granted. And even if I succeed, there will certainly > be a time when I would need some feature I haven't thought of in advance (a > need to use a debugger inside Nvim, idk) and I would have to either avoid > this feature for the time being or abandon anything I am currently doing and > try to search information on how to integrate this thing into my system and > into my workflow. > > If I had used one of the bloated programs I probably could have found a > solution in one of the menus after reading few Stack Overflow answers. But > with Neovim I'd have to first find the program that would be suitable for > what I try to achieve, then I'd have to read many lines or pages of > documentation, after that I'd have to implement that thing and only then I'd > be able to use the thing. > > Such minimalism just seems unpractical to me. Maybe I have the wrong mindset > when it comes to these things. > > I do love using more niche and minimalist programs. I like when things are > small, simple and understandable. I really like C over C++, Rust or anything > else exactly for that reason. It's just makes computers fun, comfortable and > cute (idk how else to describe it). But am not fond of endlessly configuring > these things before they become even semi-practical. I really don't know what > to think about all of this. What do you have to say about this? > > -- > Nikita >
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
I take a practical approach. I use simple programs when they do the job well, and more complex programs when they get the job done better. Sometimes a simple program can be useful for certain jobs, such as ones involving shell scripting, whereas a complex program may be more useful for example in other applications, such as using Solidworks for engineering work. LaTeX is certainly a bloated monstrosity, but the damn thing is useful for a lot of different tasks. People on this email list tend to go to an extreme in favoring simplicity above all else, which is why they release dumpster fires like the ST terminal emulator for example which has absolutely no features at all, is riddled with bugs and compatibility problems, and requires extensive patching to add in any useful features. The developers are also basement-dwelling losers, total raging assholes who take personal offense to the suggestion that their code should be better commented or that someone might fork the code to make an improved version. I tried ST for a time before realizing it was trash and just switched back to Xterm, the gold standard of functional X11 terminal emulators, which the ST developers talked shit about, calling "bloated" in their documentation, and saying the code wasn't good. Actually it is not bloated, the code quality is much higher than ST (and is actually commented!), It Just Works(TM), and it's noticeably faster as well when ST is patched with the juvenile "scrollback buffer support" implementation--which calls malloc() once for every line(!) of the scrollback buffer. Take anything that a religious cult member says with a grain of salt. Dave
Re: [dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
On Tue, Jul 04, 2023 at 07:06:12PM +0300, Nikita Krasnov wrote: > Just bear with me on this one, this is not a bait or a troll, I promise. I > genuinely fell very confused. > > What would be the point of using minimalist software if bloated and > excessively complex programs completely satisfy all my needs? I am not the > kind of person that works directly with hardware, but it's not like I use my > system only as a bootloader for a web browser either. It's just that my > current workflow feels pretty complete to me. > > Take LaTeX, for example. I do all of my LaTeX in TeXstudio and, frankly, I'm > satisfied with it. Autocompletion is there by default and there are many > shortcuts that I don't need to set up myself. I simply use the all of this. > > You could say that TeXstudio is pretty bloated and isn't that flexible in > terms of configuring and using it in conjunction with other applications. > And you'd be right. But if I'll try to use more minimalist software like > Neovim I would spend an endless amount of time configuring and patching all > the features I now take for granted. And even if I succeed, there will > certainly be a time when I would need some feature I haven't thought of in > advance (a need to use a debugger inside Nvim, idk) and I would have to > either avoid this feature for the time being or abandon anything I am > currently doing and try to search information on how to integrate this thing > into my system and into my workflow. > > If I had used one of the bloated programs I probably could have found a > solution in one of the menus after reading few Stack Overflow answers. But > with Neovim I'd have to first find the program that would be suitable for > what I try to achieve, then I'd have to read many lines or pages of > documentation, after that I'd have to implement that thing and only then I'd > be able to use the thing. > > Such minimalism just seems unpractical to me. Maybe I have the wrong mindset > when it comes to these things. > > I do love using more niche and minimalist programs. I like when things are > small, simple and understandable. I really like C over C++, Rust or anything Why? > else exactly for that reason. It's just makes computers fun, comfortable and > cute (idk how else to describe it). But am not fond of endlessly configuring > these things before they become even semi-practical. I really don't know > what to think about all of this. What do you have to say about this? > > -- > Nikita > -- Kind regards, Hiltjo
[dev] Minimalist software. Should I care?
Just bear with me on this one, this is not a bait or a troll, I promise. I genuinely fell very confused. What would be the point of using minimalist software if bloated and excessively complex programs completely satisfy all my needs? I am not the kind of person that works directly with hardware, but it's not like I use my system only as a bootloader for a web browser either. It's just that my current workflow feels pretty complete to me. Take LaTeX, for example. I do all of my LaTeX in TeXstudio and, frankly, I'm satisfied with it. Autocompletion is there by default and there are many shortcuts that I don't need to set up myself. I simply use the all of this. You could say that TeXstudio is pretty bloated and isn't that flexible in terms of configuring and using it in conjunction with other applications. And you'd be right. But if I'll try to use more minimalist software like Neovim I would spend an endless amount of time configuring and patching all the features I now take for granted. And even if I succeed, there will certainly be a time when I would need some feature I haven't thought of in advance (a need to use a debugger inside Nvim, idk) and I would have to either avoid this feature for the time being or abandon anything I am currently doing and try to search information on how to integrate this thing into my system and into my workflow. If I had used one of the bloated programs I probably could have found a solution in one of the menus after reading few Stack Overflow answers. But with Neovim I'd have to first find the program that would be suitable for what I try to achieve, then I'd have to read many lines or pages of documentation, after that I'd have to implement that thing and only then I'd be able to use the thing. Such minimalism just seems unpractical to me. Maybe I have the wrong mindset when it comes to these things. I do love using more niche and minimalist programs. I like when things are small, simple and understandable. I really like C over C++, Rust or anything else exactly for that reason. It's just makes computers fun, comfortable and cute (idk how else to describe it). But am not fond of endlessly configuring these things before they become even semi-practical. I really don't know what to think about all of this. What do you have to say about this? -- Nikita
Re: [dev] Announcing a couple small X11 utilities
On Tue, Jul 04, 2023 at 07:51:59PM +0600, NRK wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to share some small X11 utilities that I've developed and have > been using in my daily setup. The utilities are all fairly small in > size and requires only typical X libraries. > > sxcs > > > This is a simple color picker and magnifier. My issue with all other > existing minimal color pickers were that due to no magnification, > picking out specific pixels was fairly difficult. > > The usage is simple, you launch the program and pick a color. The result > will be output to stdout in tab separated RGB, HSL and HEX format. > > Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sxcs > SLoC: ~628 > Dependencies: Xlib, libXcursor > > sxot > > > This one is a *very minimal* screenshot tool. I wrote this when I > realized that other cli screenshot tools (scrot, maim) do way too much. > > sxot on the other hand is meant to follow the unix philosophy - it > simply takes a screenshot and outputs a binary ppm image to stdout. > Any other functionalities are supposed to be handled by more specialized > tools. E.g sx4 (see below) for selection, optipng to convert to png, > xclip for copying to clipboard etc. > > Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sxot > SLoC: ~251 > Dependencies: Xlib, libXfixes > > sx4 > === > > This one is a selection tool. It outputs the selection rectangle to > stdout which can then be used for other purposes, such as screenshoting > or screen-recording a specific area. > > Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sx4 > SLoC: ~500 > Dependencies: Xlib, libXext > > --- > > And that's all. Feel free to report any bugs, send bug-fixes, request > additional features (within the project's scope) etc. > > - NRK > Nice, thanks for sharing :) -- Kind regards, Hiltjo
[dev] Announcing a couple small X11 utilities
Hi all, I'd like to share some small X11 utilities that I've developed and have been using in my daily setup. The utilities are all fairly small in size and requires only typical X libraries. sxcs This is a simple color picker and magnifier. My issue with all other existing minimal color pickers were that due to no magnification, picking out specific pixels was fairly difficult. The usage is simple, you launch the program and pick a color. The result will be output to stdout in tab separated RGB, HSL and HEX format. Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sxcs SLoC: ~628 Dependencies: Xlib, libXcursor sxot This one is a *very minimal* screenshot tool. I wrote this when I realized that other cli screenshot tools (scrot, maim) do way too much. sxot on the other hand is meant to follow the unix philosophy - it simply takes a screenshot and outputs a binary ppm image to stdout. Any other functionalities are supposed to be handled by more specialized tools. E.g sx4 (see below) for selection, optipng to convert to png, xclip for copying to clipboard etc. Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sxot SLoC: ~251 Dependencies: Xlib, libXfixes sx4 === This one is a selection tool. It outputs the selection rectangle to stdout which can then be used for other purposes, such as screenshoting or screen-recording a specific area. Repo: https://codeberg.org/NRK/sx4 SLoC: ~500 Dependencies: Xlib, libXext --- And that's all. Feel free to report any bugs, send bug-fixes, request additional features (within the project's scope) etc. - NRK
Re: [dev] Am I doing this right?
On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 6:37 PM Nikita Krasnov wrote: > While we're on it. Are there any good Android email clients > that you can recommend? I've yet to find an app that allows > you to send emails in plain text, let alone with line > hard-wrapping :( Haven't really tested out email clients on Android but if you use any of the popular mail command line clients, you can get Termux on Android and run familiar FLOSS command line/console programs on your phone using it. > It's the same thing with IRC. I recently started using it > and it feels like a huge breath of fresh air. But it's so > niche nowadays that there is barely any community around it. I think some IRC users have switched to Matrix. Speaking of Matrix, I'd like to add a quick plug for Software Freedom Day. If anyone's interested in volunteering or helping out, the Software Freedom Day organizers are meeting via: https://matrix.to/#/%23SoftwareFreedomDay:matrix.org Feel free to join in.
