Re: [dev] curses samterm
[2010-08-03 16:30] Joe joebsulli...@gmail.com [08/03/10] @11:28AM PDT, mei...@marmaro.de wrote: [2010-08-03 10:14] Joe joebsulli...@gmail.com NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [-] [-sx] [-p string] [file] It should be: ed [-] [file] I concur. fwd: sj...@apple.com. My only other choice is 9 man ed: SYNOPSIS ed [ - ] [ -o ] [ file ] or Google: ed [-] [-Gs] [-p string] [file] ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ] ed [-] [-Esx] [-p string] [file] ed [-s | -] [-p string] [-x] [-C] [file] You see, the dash is the only options provided by all implementations, except First Editon. meillo
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Luxuries like syntax coloring would be nice but really not critical. Would you like reading a book with all adjectives bolded and nouns italicized? You may want to take a look at ALGOL 68. I hadn't thought of it like that before. Good point. Excuse me while I also remove indentation from my my code. Would you indent your prose? What nonsense have I been practicing? Thanks.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:20:39 -0700 Wolf Tivy wti...@my.bcit.ca wrote: Excuse me while I also remove indentation from my my code. Would you indent your prose? http://google.com/search?q=sense-lining Robert Ransom signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On 8/3/2010 12:41 AM, Wolf Tivy wrote: I find it useful to be able to edit files using my regular editor after I break X, or if I don't feel like starting it up. X doesn't break that often for me. I like curses stuff even in X because it is nice to open up an editor and have it tempoarily reuse the terminal window without spawning another and thrashing my layout. Furthermore, as a bit of an Usually I'll have acme always running and just plumb stuff to it. Actually you can almost live inside acme like you can live inside emacs. aesthetic concern, curses editors inherit the color configuration of the terminal, which is convienient if you are into making things look nice. It was suggested before that a curses interface would be a good idea, so I am assuming that I am not the only person who would appreciate it. Very few people use sam to begin with, even fewer would like the curses interface. I'm guessing no more than 20 people. I might be happy with the p9p samterm, but I can't figure out how to get it standalone from the rest of p9p, or what kind of Not sure you can. Why don't you want p9p? It's got a lot of cool stuff in it. aesthetic variations are possible (font?, color?). These issues are I think you can change the font by setting the font environment variable, but there's no syntax highlighting because Pike doesn't like it. I used to think that was an important feature also, but after using acme for a while I don't miss it at all. I also don't miss wasting a lot of time obsessively trying to write highlighting scripts for custom languages in vim. not that big on thier own, but combined with the whole X-dependant thing, it just doesn't seem worth it. So that's my view on why a curses samterm is a good idea. If noone is interested, I will survive with nano, but if people are Why don't you just use vim? It meets all your requirements and like sam has ed-style commands. interested or if someone has started, I'm willing to throw some time at it. - Original Message - From: Joseph Xujoseph...@gmail.com Date: Monday, August 2, 2010 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dev] curses samterm To: dev@suckless.org Under what circumstance would you not be able to run sam's gui and have to resort to a curses interface? sam already provides a way to connect the gui to a remote host via ssh to edit files over a slow connection. I've even done this with an old Windows port of sam running locally and a remote linux host with p9p sam. So the only reason is if you don't want to run X on your local computer, which seems ridiculous nowadays. Rob Pike wrote sam in part because he didn't like having to cursor around in vi.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Fortune worthy: X doesn't break that often for me. --Joseph Xu, 8/3/10
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 6:41 AM, Wolf Tivy wti...@my.bcit.ca wrote: I find it useful to be able to edit files using my regular editor after I break X, or if I don't feel like starting it up. I like curses stuff even in X because it is nice to open up an editor and have it tempoarily reuse the terminal window without spawning another and thrashing my layout. Furthermore, as a bit of an aesthetic concern, curses editors inherit the color configuration of the terminal, which is convienient if you are into making things look nice. It was suggested before that a curses interface would be a good idea, so I am assuming that I am not the only person who would appreciate it. I might be happy with the p9p samterm, but I can't figure out how to get it standalone from the rest of p9p, or what kind of Sam has run on lunix since long before p9p existed. apt-get install sam should work, it is a somewhat old version of sam, but all the functionality should be there. aesthetic variations are possible (font?, color?). These issues are not that big on thier own, but combined with the whole X-dependant thing, it just doesn't seem worth it. So that's my view on why a curses samterm is a good idea. If noone is interested, I will survive with nano, but if people are interested or if someone has started, I'm willing to throw some time at it. Anyone that considers for even one second to use nano should be taken out and shot on the spot. uriel - Original Message - From: Joseph Xu joseph...@gmail.com Date: Monday, August 2, 2010 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dev] curses samterm To: dev@suckless.org Under what circumstance would you not be able to run sam's gui and have to resort to a curses interface? sam already provides a way to connect the gui to a remote host via ssh to edit files over a slow connection. I've even done this with an old Windows port of sam running locally and a remote linux host with p9p sam. So the only reason is if you don't want to run X on your local computer, which seems ridiculous nowadays. Rob Pike wrote sam in part because he didn't like having to cursor around in vi.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:01:24 +0200 Uriel ur...@berlinblue.org wrote: Anyone that considers for even one second to use nano should be taken out and shot on the spot. It's not so bad if you build it with the --disable-wrapping-as-root configure option and only use it as root. In case you're wondering why I know *that*, nano is the least bad editor on the standard Arch Linux install CD image (the others are joe and traditional, breaks-if-you-push-a-cursor-key-in-insert-mode vi; I'd be happy with ed, but they didn't provide it), and I just peeked at the PKGBUILD to see if the Arch folks had needed to patch /etc/nanorc to make it stop mangling long lines. Apparently not... Robert Ransom signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Robert Ransom rransom.8...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:01:24 +0200 Uriel ur...@berlinblue.org wrote: Anyone that considers for even one second to use nano should be taken out and shot on the spot. It's not so bad if you build it with the --disable-wrapping-as-root configure option and only use it as root. In case you're wondering why I know *that*, nano is the least bad editor on the standard Arch Linux install CD image (the others are joe and traditional, breaks-if-you-push-a-cursor-key-in-insert-mode vi; I'd be happy with ed, but they didn't provide it), What the fuck?!?!? Everyone involved in the development of lunix distributions that don't include ed as one of its most core programs should have their liver devoured by harpies and their testicles infested by maggots for the rest of eternity, Prometheus-style. uriel and I just peeked at the PKGBUILD to see if the Arch folks had needed to patch /etc/nanorc to make it stop mangling long lines. Apparently not... Robert Ransom
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, Aug 03, 2010 at 12:20:39AM -0700, Wolf Tivy wrote: I hadn't thought of it like that before. Good point. Excuse me while I also remove indentation from my my code. Would you indent your prose? What nonsense have I been practicing? I do indent my prose, by using paragraphs. Thanks. pgp7kfhqHzmtE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Hey, On 3 August 2010 09:50, Joseph Xu joseph...@gmail.com wrote: Very few people use sam to begin with, even fewer would like the curses interface. I'm guessing no more than 20 people. The best reason not to write a program ever: nobody is using it yet. Usually I'll have acme always running and just plumb stuff to it. Actually you can almost live inside acme like you can live inside emacs. Yes, indeed. Both acme and samterm ship with their very own window manager, so you can fullscreen acme in rio and pretend you're using wmii. And samterm is even worse: a stacking window manager within a stacking window manager (so you can stack while you stack). There is a good reason why a curses samterm would be useful: the standard one is a joke. I have not found any program in which it is slower to do work. With dwm and vim you can manage development tasks using nothing but muscle memory. With sam you have to move term, resize term, move flayer, resize flayer, position cursor, insert some text, move the cursor horizontally but never vertically... But I'd much prefer a sane curses samterm to vim, since (as I mentioned during one of our many flame wars) I dislike its modality and its tendency to work completely differently on each machine. And sam, after all, has lovely things like structural regular expressions. (But let's not have another flame war.) I have looked into making a curses samterm before, but it's complicated by the fact that the standard samterm is coded in a ridiculously cryptic way. Sorry Rob, but what on earth. I'm sure there must be internal Bell Labs documentation on that thing. I think step one in writing a new samterm is to work out exactly how the sam protocol works (I have a fair idea), and to write a new client implementation from scratch, not just borrowing from samterm/mesg.c. Thanks, cls
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Hey, On 3 August 2010 17:43, Joseph Xu joseph...@gmail.com wrote: I said I'm guessing no more than 20 people will find it useful if it was written. I think in this case samterm is more important than sam itself when it comes to attracting users. Few will convert to using sam if it is ugly and tedious to use. An improved curses samterm could encourage people to use sam who otherwise wouldn't because unlike us they aren't backwards 9fans. No more than 20 of the current 20 people using sam would find a new interface useful, certainly. ;) I agree the sam internal window manager is kind of ridiculous. Pike must have thought so too, since he made acme very differently. True, though he made acme manage windows too, so he clearly didn't change his mind about that. A possibility could be to make the command window set up a socket to which other windows can connect, so then you can manage windows with ^Z / screen / xterms / tabbed, without having to build it into samterm itself. The inability to move the cursor up and down lines is weird too, I think that has to do with the fact that internally both sam and acme represent buffers as streams of characters rather than lines. At least that's my understanding. I believe you're right. I think this is also why the rio scrollbars act strangely. Storing the buffer as a linked list of lines would make it quite a bit simpler. Thanks, cls
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Yes, indeed. Both acme and samterm ship with their very own window manager, so you can fullscreen acme in rio and pretend you're using wmii. And samterm is even worse: a stacking window manager within a stacking window manager (so you can stack while you stack). There is a good reason why a curses samterm would be useful: the standard one is a joke. I have not found any program in which it is slower to do work. With dwm and vim you can manage development tasks using nothing but muscle memory. With sam you have to move term, resize term, move flayer, resize flayer, position cursor, insert some text, move the cursor horizontally but never vertically... But I'd much prefer a sane curses samterm to vim, since (as I mentioned during one of our many flame wars) I dislike its modality and its tendency to work completely differently on each machine. And sam, after all, has lovely things like structural regular expressions. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I find vi(m) to be totally incomprehensible, though. I find even sam -d to be easier than vi(m). Mostly because the command set in sam is so good. I have looked into making a curses samterm before, but it's complicated by the fact that the standard samterm is coded in a ridiculously cryptic way. Sorry Rob, but what on earth. I'm sure there must be internal Bell Labs documentation on that thing. I think step one in writing a new samterm is to work out exactly how the sam protocol works (I have a fair idea), and to write a new client implementation from scratch, not just borrowing from samterm/mesg.c. Then the totally new samterm is the way to go. Especially considering that the interface should be totally different (like I mentioned earlier). How different is the protocol from sam -d? I will have to do some reading. Now that I know there is at least one other person interested, I might do some more serious thinking and see what I can code up.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
[2010-08-03 10:14] Joe joebsulli...@gmail.com ED(1)ED(1) NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [-] [-sx] [-p string] [file] It should be: ed [-] [file] meillo
Re: [dev] curses samterm
ED(1) ED(1) NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [-] [-sx] [-p string] [file] DESCRIPTION ed is a line-oriented text editor. It is used to create, display, mod- ify and otherwise manipulate text files. WARNING Everyone involved in the development of lunix distributions that don't include ed as one of its most core programs should have their liver devoured by harpies and their testicles infested by maggots for the rest of eternity, Prometheus-style. Pathetic synopsis
Re: [dev] curses samterm
So on that note, it looks like curses is the way to go (as has been previously suggested). Then the issue is how closely our curses samterm would resemble bitmap samterm. Considering all the clicky menus and scrollbars and such, it may be best for the curses interface to be a totally different design. Curses does support mouse use at this point, and seeing as the use of the mouse to select text is one of the big features of sam, I think it'd be important to keep that. Instead of using the menu, the options from it could all be mapped to single or chorded keystrokes of the left hand (user defined mappings so lefties, righties, and users of any keyboard would be happy...). The biggest question I feel is what to do about the command window vs file windows. My first thought is that we're headed towards a modal editor like vi, but then you can no longer select and edit text from the command window or paste into different files unless you have separate windows open in curses or use a clipboard outside of sam. Which brings my second thought of actually having a separate command window in the curses interface instead of being modal. Problem is, neither of these sound like a good way of going about it. Any ideas? -emg
Re: [dev] curses samterm
[08/03/10] @11:28AM PDT, mei...@marmaro.de wrote: [2010-08-03 10:14] Joe joebsulli...@gmail.com NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [-] [-sx] [-p string] [file] It should be: ed [-] [file] I concur. fwd: sj...@apple.com. My only other choice is 9 man ed: SYNOPSIS ed [ - ] [ -o ] [ file ] or Google: ed [-] [-Gs] [-p string] [file] ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ] ed [-] [-Esx] [-p string] [file] ed [-s | -] [-p string] [-x] [-C] [file] It's the *standard* text editor. Sanity, alas: http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/ed
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On Tue, Aug 03, 2010 at 04:29:34PM -0700, Wolf Tivy wrote: My current idea is just to have the screen displaying the file (where?) with dot highlighted. A few lines at the bottom would have the command line, maybe it would dynamically adjust for multiline commands, I dunno. You could cursor around using arrows or mouse (how do we scroll with mouse) or whatever to select the dot. Sounds like vi. pgpAgKcRuQeoS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Sounds like vi. except with a clean command set and less legacy baggage.
[dev] curses samterm
I noticed there is a project for a samterm on the project ideas page. Has anyone started on this? It seems like a really good idea. I guess ideally it would be usable without X (in text mode) but would still keep the nice view and selection interface. Luxuries like syntax coloring would be nice but really not critical. So on that note, it looks like curses is the way to go (as has been previously suggested). Then the issue is how closely our curses samterm would resemble bitmap samterm. Considering all the clicky menus and scrollbars and such, it may be best for the curses interface to be a totally different design. With that in mind, does anyone have good ideas for a curses samterm interface? I am enthusiastic about this project and I'd be willing to help, but I have never touched any curses code and my only familiarity with sam is the papers and an occasional sam -d.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
Under what circumstance would you not be able to run sam's gui and have to resort to a curses interface? sam already provides a way to connect the gui to a remote host via ssh to edit files over a slow connection. I've even done this with an old Windows port of sam running locally and a remote linux host with p9p sam. So the only reason is if you don't want to run X on your local computer, which seems ridiculous nowadays. Rob Pike wrote sam in part because he didn't like having to cursor around in vi. On 8/2/2010 6:15 PM, Wolf Tivy wrote: I noticed there is a project for a samterm on the project ideas page. Has anyone started on this? It seems like a really good idea. I guess ideally it would be usable without X (in text mode) but would still keep the nice view and selection interface. Luxuries like syntax coloring would be nice but really not critical. So on that note, it looks like curses is the way to go (as has been previously suggested). Then the issue is how closely our curses samterm would resemble bitmap samterm. Considering all the clicky menus and scrollbars and such, it may be best for the curses interface to be a totally different design. With that in mind, does anyone have good ideas for a curses samterm interface? I am enthusiastic about this project and I'd be willing to help, but I have never touched any curses code and my only familiarity with sam is the papers and an occasional sam -d.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
On 8/2/2010 6:15 PM, Wolf Tivy wrote: I noticed there is a project for a samterm on the project ideas page. Has anyone started on this? It seems like a really good idea. I guess ideally it would be usable without X (in text mode) but would still keep the nice view and selection interface. Luxuries like syntax coloring would be nice but really not critical. So on that note, it looks like curses is the way to go (as has been previously suggested). Then the issue is how closely our curses samterm would resemble bitmap samterm. Considering all the clicky menus and scrollbars and such, it may be best for the curses interface to be a totally different design. With that in mind, does anyone have good ideas for a curses samterm interface? I am enthusiastic about this project and I'd be willing to help, but I have never touched any curses code and my only familiarity with sam is the papers and an occasional sam -d. Under what circumstance would you not be able to run sam's gui and have to resort to a curses interface? sam already provides a way to connect the gui to a remote host via ssh to edit files over a slow connection. I've even done this with an old Windows port of sam running locally and a remote linux host with p9p sam. So the only reason is if you don't want to run X on your local computer, which seems ridiculous nowadays. Rob Pike wrote sam in part because he didn't like having to cursor around in vi.
Re: [dev] curses samterm
I find it useful to be able to edit files using my regular editor after I break X, or if I don't feel like starting it up. I like curses stuff even in X because it is nice to open up an editor and have it tempoarily reuse the terminal window without spawning another and thrashing my layout. Furthermore, as a bit of an aesthetic concern, curses editors inherit the color configuration of the terminal, which is convienient if you are into making things look nice. It was suggested before that a curses interface would be a good idea, so I am assuming that I am not the only person who would appreciate it. I might be happy with the p9p samterm, but I can't figure out how to get it standalone from the rest of p9p, or what kind of aesthetic variations are possible (font?, color?). These issues are not that big on thier own, but combined with the whole X-dependant thing, it just doesn't seem worth it. So that's my view on why a curses samterm is a good idea. If noone is interested, I will survive with nano, but if people are interested or if someone has started, I'm willing to throw some time at it. - Original Message - From: Joseph Xu joseph...@gmail.com Date: Monday, August 2, 2010 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dev] curses samterm To: dev@suckless.org Under what circumstance would you not be able to run sam's gui and have to resort to a curses interface? sam already provides a way to connect the gui to a remote host via ssh to edit files over a slow connection. I've even done this with an old Windows port of sam running locally and a remote linux host with p9p sam. So the only reason is if you don't want to run X on your local computer, which seems ridiculous nowadays. Rob Pike wrote sam in part because he didn't like having to cursor around in vi.
