Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Rémy Maucherat]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 2:35 PM Rémy Maucherat  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat 10.1.
>
> Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
> should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
> should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
> running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.
>
> Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
> Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
> still be good.
>
> After the change:
> - Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
> - Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
> - Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.
>
> Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
> the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
> main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
> release target.
>
> Comments ?

Java 22 is now final so I plan to do that FFM backport to Tomcat 10.1.
I understand this is annoying in a few ways, but there is a clear
benefit especially long term once users migrate to the next Java LTS.

Due to the release target that needs to stay at 8 for Tomcat 9.0 and
the risk that future LTS releases drop it, I don't plan to backport
further for now however.
The policy is supposed to be "documented" at: https://openjdk.org/jeps/182
It seems the previous three LTS are supported as the release target,
so the next LTS would support 21, 17 and 11 (so all good for Tomcat
10.1), but not 8.

Rémy

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Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Rémy Maucherat]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 2:25 PM Christopher Schultz
 wrote:
>
> Rémy,
>
> On 2/23/24 08:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat 10.1.
> >
> > Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
> > should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
> > should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
> > running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.
> >
> > Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
> > Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
> > still be good.
> >
> > After the change:
> > - Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
> > - Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
> > - Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.
> >
> > Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
> > the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
> > main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
> > release target.
> >
> > Comments ?
>
> I'm not sure why, but I find it annoying that you can't build some
> Tomcat releases with the versions on which they are intended to run.

I understand that. Since Tomcat 11 now runs on 17 and will be built on
22+, there's also a big gap there and it's really annoying ...
So it's your decision at this point since you're the one building:
should I backport it or not ?

> It's too bad the FFM stuff didn't land until Java 19.

22. The functionality is very beneficial, but being so late makes it
far less useful.

Rémy

> -chris
>
> -
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Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Christopher Schultz]

Rémy,

On 2/23/24 08:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:

Hi,

I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat 10.1.

Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.

Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
still be good.

After the change:
- Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
- Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
- Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.

Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
release target.

Comments ?


I'm not sure why, but I find it annoying that you can't build some 
Tomcat releases with the versions on which they are intended to run.


It's too bad the FFM stuff didn't land until Java 19.

-chris

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Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Romain Manni-Bucau]

Le lun. 26 févr. 2024 à 13:16, Rémy Maucherat  a écrit :

> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 4:39 PM Romain Manni-Bucau
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Sounds very good overall but would be great to not do it at the cost to
> > break tomcat IDE support maybe - current status since it uses a single
> > module and not all IDE support to compile supackages with different
> target
> > versions?
> > Overall stays an Apache project where we should ensure we make
> > contributions easy ;).
> >
> > Indeed just my 2cts feedback.
>
> This is possible in this particular case (all the Java 22 code is in
> separate packages, the testsuite can accommodate that it is missing
> and has no specific tests).
> However, I have a hard time believing it would actually help as a
> Tomcat developer. I often don't bother adding Ant so the ide complains
> about catalina.ant packages, and I happily ignore it. Also it is not
> bad if new developers are aware of FFM.
>

Agree it can be good if they know it but my point was it is always bad to
not enable people to open a project in their preferred IDE - current state.
At least eclipse/vscode, idea IMHO.

Module is easier to workaround than packages where it is almost impossible
in some IDE.



>
>
> Rémy
>
> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > @rmannibucau  |  Blog
> >  | Old Blog
> >  | Github <
> https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> > LinkedIn  | Book
> > <
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> >
> >
> >
> > Le ven. 23 févr. 2024 à 16:08, Mark Thomas  a écrit :
> >
> > > On 23/02/2024 13:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat
> > > 10.1.
> > > >
> > > > Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
> > > > should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
> > > > should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
> > > > running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
> > > > Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
> > > > still be good.
> > > >
> > > > After the change:
> > > > - Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
> > > > - Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
> > > > - Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.
> > > >
> > > > Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
> > > > the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
> > > > main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
> > > > release target.
> > > >
> > > > Comments ?
> > >
> > > LGTM.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
> > >
> > >
>
> -
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>
>

Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Rémy Maucherat]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 4:39 PM Romain Manni-Bucau
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Sounds very good overall but would be great to not do it at the cost to
> break tomcat IDE support maybe - current status since it uses a single
> module and not all IDE support to compile supackages with different target
> versions?
> Overall stays an Apache project where we should ensure we make
> contributions easy ;).
>
> Indeed just my 2cts feedback.

This is possible in this particular case (all the Java 22 code is in
separate packages, the testsuite can accommodate that it is missing
and has no specific tests).
However, I have a hard time believing it would actually help as a
Tomcat developer. I often don't bother adding Ant so the ide complains
about catalina.ant packages, and I happily ignore it. Also it is not
bad if new developers are aware of FFM.

Rémy

> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau  |  Blog
>  | Old Blog
>  | Github  |
> LinkedIn  | Book
> 
>
>
> Le ven. 23 févr. 2024 à 16:08, Mark Thomas  a écrit :
>
> > On 23/02/2024 13:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat
> > 10.1.
> > >
> > > Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
> > > should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
> > > should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
> > > running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.
> > >
> > > Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
> > > Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
> > > still be good.
> > >
> > > After the change:
> > > - Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
> > > - Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
> > > - Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.
> > >
> > > Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
> > > the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
> > > main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
> > > release target.
> > >
> > > Comments ?
> >
> > LGTM.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
> >
> >

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Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Romain Manni-Bucau]

Hi all,

Sounds very good overall but would be great to not do it at the cost to
break tomcat IDE support maybe - current status since it uses a single
module and not all IDE support to compile supackages with different target
versions?
Overall stays an Apache project where we should ensure we make
contributions easy ;).

Indeed just my 2cts feedback.

Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau  |  Blog
 | Old Blog
 | Github  |
LinkedIn  | Book



Le ven. 23 févr. 2024 à 16:08, Mark Thomas  a écrit :

> On 23/02/2024 13:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat
> 10.1.
> >
> > Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
> > should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
> > should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
> > running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.
> >
> > Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
> > Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
> > still be good.
> >
> > After the change:
> > - Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
> > - Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
> > - Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.
> >
> > Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
> > the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
> > main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
> > release target.
> >
> > Comments ?
>
> LGTM.
>
> Mark
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@tomcat.apache.org
>
>

Re: FFM in Tomcat 10.1

[Mark Thomas]

On 23/02/2024 13:35, Rémy Maucherat wrote:

Hi,

I would like to propose backporting the OpenSSL FFM support to Tomcat 10.1.

Java 22.0.0 should be released on March 19, and the next Java LTS
should still have no problem targeting Java 11. As a result, there
should be no negative impact to the platform support, and users
running on Java 22+ could benefit from easier OpenSSL support.

Obviously I anticipate most users will use FFM support once the next
Java LTS is out in a few years, but getting the feature out now would
still be good.

After the change:
- Compiling, running the testsuite, etc is still doable with Java 17.
- Running Tomcat 10.1 still works with Java 11.
- Building a Tomcat 10.1 release would now require Java 22+.

Backporting further to Tomcat 9.0 could be riskier however. Following
the removal of the Java 7 release target, Java 8 might be next. The
main question is if the next Java LTS will still support the Java 8
release target.

Comments ?


LGTM.

Mark

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