Re: Lossless video codec for web use?

[Adam Roach]

On 6/13/19 5:28 PM, Eric Shepherd (Sheppy) wrote:

Yeah, I know that lossless is huge, but was curious if there were any
options since it will be a question that gets asked, and therefore I want
to be prepared. My experiements suggest that even where there are codecs
that have a lossless or near-lossless feature in the spec, they tend not to
be implemented, especially in browsers. So I guess that’ll be a big “nope”
for now… unless someone has further guidance.



The only adjustment I'd make is that "for now" implies that real-time 
lossless video transmission across the public internet might become 
available in the foreseeable future.


Uncompressed 1080p video at 4:2:0 color sampling minimally takes 1.5 
Gbps. Lossless compression like FFV1 would knock that down to ~600 Mbps, 
depending on the source material (it does somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1 
for most video sources). It is going to be quite a long time before this 
is realistically something that anyone outside a research environment 
can take advantage of.


/a

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Re: Lossless video codec for web use?

[Jeremy Noring]

Regarding "near lossless," the best option I've seen is using x264 with
"-crf 18 -preset ultrafast", which is basically a very high quality copy of
the video with a high bitrate due to the "ultrafast" preset.  There's
minimal loss of fidelity, but it's also still relatively quick to do the
encode because x264 is exceptionally performant.

I use this extensively in a video processing pipeline I wrote (2
million-ish videos a month, at the moment).  It's a total lifesaver,
because processing video in a lossless way requires such a huge amount of
storage/memory that it's almost not worth consideration for anything but
digital mastering of original content. A better approach in probably ~95%
of situations is a "near lossless" approach.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 4:28 PM Eric Shepherd (Sheppy) <
esheph...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I know that lossless is huge, but was curious if there were any
> options since it will be a question that gets asked, and therefore I want
> to be prepared. My experiements suggest that even where there are codecs
> that have a lossless or near-lossless feature in the spec, they tend not to
> be implemented, especially in browsers. So I guess that’ll be a big “nope”
> for now… unless someone has further guidance.
>
>
> On June 13, 2019 at 6:23:00 PM, Martin Thomson (m...@mozilla.com) wrote:
>
> Lossless video coding isn't really a thing on the internet.  There are
> lossless modes in some encoders (x264 has one that I'm aware of), but they
> tend to inflate inputs rather than compress them.  There are systems used
> in video production that maintain all the source bits, but they use insane
> amounts of bandwidth.
>
>
> Eric Shepherd
> Senior Technical Writer
> MDN Web Docs 
> Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
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Re: Lossless video codec for web use?

[Eric Shepherd (Sheppy)]

Hit send one sentence too soon. I also meant to point out that in web apps,
the user could be working with local media files rather than something over
the web — especially if they’re doing A/V production work.

On June 13, 2019 at 6:23:00 PM, Martin Thomson (m...@mozilla.com) wrote:

Lossless video coding isn't really a thing on the internet.  There are
lossless modes in some encoders (x264 has one that I'm aware of), but they
tend to inflate inputs rather than compress them.  There are systems used
in video production that maintain all the source bits, but they use insane
amounts of bandwidth.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 6:37 AM Eric Shepherd (Sheppy) <
esheph...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> I’m working on my video codec documentation and have come across the point
> where I need to offer suggestions to developers who need to work with
> lossless video in a web app, for things like archival and video production
> work?
>
> As far as I can see, there aren’t at this time any dedicated lossless video
> codecs available in web browsers. Is there a lossless profile of one of the
> existing major codecs (AAC, AV1, VP8, or VP9 being the prime candidates, I
> suspect)?
>
> Some of them include a lossless functionality in the spec but the question
> is whether or not that capability is implemented by browsers and exposed in
> turn to the web app developer.
>
> Any input appreciated, thanks!
>
>
> Eric Shepherd
> Senior Technical Writer
> MDN Web Docs 
> Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
> ___
> dev-media mailing list
> dev-media@lists.mozilla.org
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>

Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
MDN Web Docs 
Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
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Re: Lossless video codec for web use?

[Eric Shepherd (Sheppy)]

Yeah, I know that lossless is huge, but was curious if there were any
options since it will be a question that gets asked, and therefore I want
to be prepared. My experiements suggest that even where there are codecs
that have a lossless or near-lossless feature in the spec, they tend not to
be implemented, especially in browsers. So I guess that’ll be a big “nope”
for now… unless someone has further guidance.


On June 13, 2019 at 6:23:00 PM, Martin Thomson (m...@mozilla.com) wrote:

Lossless video coding isn't really a thing on the internet.  There are
lossless modes in some encoders (x264 has one that I'm aware of), but they
tend to inflate inputs rather than compress them.  There are systems used
in video production that maintain all the source bits, but they use insane
amounts of bandwidth.


Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
MDN Web Docs 
Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
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Re: Lossless video codec for web use?

[Martin Thomson]

Lossless video coding isn't really a thing on the internet.  There are
lossless modes in some encoders (x264 has one that I'm aware of), but they
tend to inflate inputs rather than compress them.  There are systems used
in video production that maintain all the source bits, but they use insane
amounts of bandwidth.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 6:37 AM Eric Shepherd (Sheppy) <
esheph...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> I’m working on my video codec documentation and have come across the point
> where I need to offer suggestions to developers who need to work with
> lossless video in a web app, for things like archival and video production
> work?
>
> As far as I can see, there aren’t at this time any dedicated lossless video
> codecs available in web browsers. Is there a lossless profile of one of the
> existing major codecs (AAC, AV1, VP8, or VP9 being the prime candidates, I
> suspect)?
>
> Some of them include a lossless functionality in the spec but the question
> is whether or not that capability is implemented by browsers and exposed in
> turn to the web app developer.
>
> Any input appreciated, thanks!
>
>
> Eric Shepherd
> Senior Technical Writer
> MDN Web Docs 
> Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
> ___
> dev-media mailing list
> dev-media@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-media
>
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Lossless video codec for web use?

[Eric Shepherd (Sheppy)]

I’m working on my video codec documentation and have come across the point
where I need to offer suggestions to developers who need to work with
lossless video in a web app, for things like archival and video production
work?

As far as I can see, there aren’t at this time any dedicated lossless video
codecs available in web browsers. Is there a lossless profile of one of the
existing major codecs (AAC, AV1, VP8, or VP9 being the prime candidates, I
suspect)?

Some of them include a lossless functionality in the spec but the question
is whether or not that capability is implemented by browsers and exposed in
turn to the web app developer.

Any input appreciated, thanks!


Eric Shepherd
Senior Technical Writer
MDN Web Docs 
Blog: https://www.bitstampede.com/
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