Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Thorsten Leemhuis]

Lo!

Adam Jackson wrote on 17.11.2014 20:06:
>
> With that in mind, I ask for feedback on how we'd actually like that to
> work.  The kernel rebase policy seems like a pretty reasonable model:
> F21 would stay on 1.16.x until there's an upstream 1.17.1 release, and
> (if F20 were to be affected by this policy) F20 would wait until 1.17.1
> had been tested in F21.
> 
> One thing we might have to play by ear is the interaction with binary
> drivers.  The nvidia legacy driver, for instance, does not always have
> builds available for arbitrarily new servers, which means updating the X
> server might change you to an nvidia driver that no longer supports your
> hardware.  Depending on how severe that cutoff is, it might be cause to
> pin a particular Fedora release at a given server version.  I don't
> think this is presently a problem, but it could be in the future.

The same problem can and did arise with the kernel updates Fedora does.
Fglrx/catalyst in the past more than once got broken when Fedora shipped
a new major version (3.x -> 3.(x+1)) as a regular update, because the
flgrx/catalyst kernel module the flgrx/catalyst driver for X.org relies
on was incompatible with the new kernel. Sometimes (but not always!)
there were patches to work around that (and yes, they often got
integrated into RPM Fusion packages).

But in the end Fedora and its kernel maintainers didn't care. Which
might be the right thing to do for X as well, because companies then
learn that they need to keep track of ongoing development and users
notice some of the risks these driver bear.

CU
knurd
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Re: rawhide report: 20141114 changes

[Petr Pisar]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 10:47:59AM -0700, Jerry James wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 4:12 AM, Fedora Rawhide Report
>  wrote:
> > perl-5.20.1-313.fc22
> > 
> > * Thu Nov 13 2014 Petr Pisar  - 4:5.20.1-313
> > - Freeze epoch at perl-Pod-Checker and perl-Pod-Usage (bug #1163490)
> > - Remove bundled perl-ExtUtils-Command (bug #1158536)
> > - Remove bundled perl-Filter-Simple (bug #1158542)
> 
> This change made the version of perl-ExtUtils-Command in Rawhide go
> from perl-ExtUtils-Command.noarch 0:1.18-312.fc22 to
> perl-ExtUtils-Command.noarch 0:1.18-240.fc22, which is a downgrade.
> Is that intentional?

You are right. I counfounded the hunderds. I fixed both the packages by
increasing the release number to 340. Thank you for pointing to this glitch.

-- Petr


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Lars Seipel]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:05:35PM +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> True, as you also have to explicitly click a tile to send data to
> Mozilla.

Well, I don't think the act of hiding/closing an ad (by clicking on the
'x' attached to it) can be reasonably interpreted as informed consent.
Yet, it is explicitly listed among the tracked actions according to what
Darren Herman apparently told the advertiser community.

> No. We are talking about the tiles. I didn't see anyone suggesting we
> remove Google search. It's like the tiles feature crossed a line, which
> is far from truth.

I'm not sure about that. Besides the feature itself, there's also the
issue of the language used to explain it. Describing the placement of
advertisements as an "enhancement" to users, in my opinion, definitely
crosses the line to dishonesty and bullshitting of users.

Really, this stuff is communicated in a form of double-speak marketing
verbiage that I'm just not used to hear in communicating with open
source projects. Read the initial blog posts about it.

> I'm talking about the "advertisement" part. Some people seem to be
> bothered by this alone. Tiles feature indeed promotes some websites, but
> we already do that.

No, actually we don't. We promote websites because we honestly think
they're useful, not because we're paid to do so.

I don't think we should drop Firefox from the default installation. I
really like it, despite something at Mozilla going terribly wrong
lately. I do think this "feature" needs to be shipped as off by default,
though.
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Nikos Roussos
 wrote:
> On 11/16/2014 08:24 PM, Christopher wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Mustafa Muhammad
>> mailto:mustafaa.alhamda...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:

>> This doesn't seem relevant to this discussion, unless Fedora browsers
>> are automatically, and without the user's explicit knowledge or
>> permission, navigating to Google's search engine, which (AFAICT) they
>> are not.
>
> Same happens with these tiles. No data is sent back to Mozilla unless
> you *choose* to click one of the promoted tiles.

Even if not sent to Mozilla, it's accessible to the advertisers. I
could spend a long time explaining the various means, that web
advertisers track their users, ranging from crafting URL's and
metadata about the particular requests to 'web bugs', those little one
pixel transparent gifs so ubiquitous on the plethora of
ad.doublelick.net websites with fake names used to collect the data.
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Mattias Ellert]

tis 2014-11-18 klockan 00:16 +0200 skrev Nikos Roussos:
> On 11/18/2014 12:12 AM, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:27:53PM +0300, Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
> >> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
> >> by tapping is off by default.
> >> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
> >> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
> >> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
> >> and Linux distributions.
> >>
> >> What can we do to make this happen?
> > 
> > This comes up every couple of versions, so here is the reasoning for
> > disabled by default:
> > 
> > * if you don't know that tapping is a thing (or enabled by default), you get
> >   spurious button events that make the desktop feel buggy.
> > * if you do know what tapping is and you want it, you usually know where to
> >   enable it, or at least you can search for it.
> 
> Well, in practice most users just think it's broken.
> 
> You forgot one case though.
> 
> * If you know what tapping is and you don't want it (enabled by
> default), you know where to go to disable it.

Even if you know that this weird "feature" exists, it will take you
hours to disable it, since while you are trying to find your way through
setting and control panels you will get tons and tons of random clicks
that open random windows that needs to be closed and change random
settings that you need to reset. And while you try to do this you get
even more random clicks that open new windows and change other stuff.

Leaving this off by default is sane.

Mattias




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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[Corey Sheldon]

http://paste.fedoraproject.org/151650/87454141  Valient   that is my single
drive dual crypt setup MADE BY installer  no issues


Corey W Sheldon
Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
310.909.7672
www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Andrew Lutomirski  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:09 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Andrew Lutomirski  wrote:
> >> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
> >>  wrote:
> >>> Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
> >>> LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
> >>>
> >>> Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
> >>> I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
> >>> XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
> >>
> >> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
> >> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
> >> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
> >>
> >> --Andy
> >
> > Andy do you have any ideas how to disable "i915 fast suspend/resume" ?
>
> Try i915.fastboot=0, I think.  Although that seems to be the default,
> so I may be off-base here.
>
> You could also try intel_iommu=on and/or intel_iommu=off -- there are
> historical issues there.
>
> TBH, though, given the luks involvement, this could be some nasty
> plymouth interaction.  Fiddling with quiet and rhgb could help.
>
> Also, booting with no_console_suspend might give a better error message.
>
> --Andy
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Felix Miata]

Peter Hutterer composed on 2014-11-18 14:55 (UTC+1000):

> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:16:26AM +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:

>> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:27:53PM +0300, Mustafa Muhammad wrote:

>> >> on by default in most operating systems
>> >> and Linux distributions.

>> Well, in practice most users just think it's broken.

> and you have references for "most"?

Anyone have references for "most operating systems and Linux distributions"
have it on, opposite of upstream default?
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Peter Hutterer]

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:16:26AM +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> On 11/18/2014 12:12 AM, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:27:53PM +0300, Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
> >> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
> >> by tapping is off by default.
> >> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
> >> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
> >> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
> >> and Linux distributions.
> >>
> >> What can we do to make this happen?
> > 
> > This comes up every couple of versions, so here is the reasoning for
> > disabled by default:
> > 
> > * if you don't know that tapping is a thing (or enabled by default), you get
> >   spurious button events that make the desktop feel buggy.
> > * if you do know what tapping is and you want it, you usually know where to
> >   enable it, or at least you can search for it.
> 
> Well, in practice most users just think it's broken.

and you have references for "most"?

Cheers,
   Peter

> You forgot one case though.
> 
> * If you know what tapping is and you don't want it (enabled by
> default), you know where to go to disable it.


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Rejy M Cyriac]

On 11/17/2014 09:23 PM, Chuck Anderson wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 02:25:48PM +0100, Lars Seipel wrote:
>> So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
>> "New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.
> 
> I started seeing the advertisement tiles on my existing profile.
> 
It looks like the 'advertisement tiles' come up even on old profiles, if
the default start page had been left unmodified. If the default
start(home) page had earlier been explicitly set to blank or to some
other site, as I had done in one of my systems, the 'advertisement
tiles' do not come up, unless you go click that 'gear' on the top right
in a tab, and select 'enhanced' or 'classic'.

By the way, anyone know why 'enhanced' and 'classic' behave the same ?

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Fedora 21 Final Change Freeze

[Dennis Gilmore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi all,

as the Fedora 21 schedule[1] states the Final change freeze is upon
us. As of now only updates that fix an accepted Final Blocker bug or
Freeze exception will be allowed in. 

we are at the post beta stage of release, so the Pre-release[3]
stage of the updates policy applies. 

Regards

Dennis

[1] http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-21/f-21-devel-tasks.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_freeze_exception_bug_process
[3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#Pre_release
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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Samuel Sieb]

On 11/17/2014 04:16 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

1) proprietary drivers depend on the kernel


Aren't there two parts, the kernel driver and the X driver?  From the 
earlier discussion, it sounds like some part depends on the X server ABI.



2)  yes people do build from source but indirectly via the akmod system
used in RPM Fusion


Those should be able to control the dependencies.  Wouldn't that work?
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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:

My opinion is strongly in line with Kevin, but Chris has a good point.
> However, isn't it possible to have both.  I'm not familiar with the
> proprietary drivers other than knowing that the NVidia one is available
> through rpmfusion.  (Out of the many varieties of laptops I've installed
> Fedora on (at least 30 different models from various manufacturers), I've
> only had one that required the NVidia driver.)  If the proprietary driver
> has a strong dependency on a certain X version, won't that just stop the X
> server from being upgraded?  In that case, everyone using the open drivers
> can upgrade and the others will just not get the new X server until they
> have new drivers available.  I expect this doesn't work if you compile from
> source though.  Are there many people that do that?
>

1) proprietary drivers depend on the kernel
2)  yes people do build from source but indirectly via the akmod system
used in RPM Fusion

Whether we should care about those users depends on whether we care about
users or just our own repositories.   We have in the past done new releases
that broke the proprietary drivers and that's somewhat unavoidable but
breaking them in an update might too problematic.  I would suggest avoiding
that if we can.

Rahul
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Kevin Kofler]

Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
> by tapping is off by default.
> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
> and Linux distributions.
> 
> What can we do to make this happen?

Can we PLEASE not have this discussion over and over again? The reasons for 
this default have been explained many times:
1. The default we ship is the default of the upstream synaptics driver.
2. Having tapping enabled can cause accidental clicks in several different
   situations:
   * at the beginning of a move (moving the finger to the touchpad too
 strongly),
   * during a move (accidental finger trembling),
   * while doing unrelated activities such as typing (accidentally touching
 the touchpad).
3. Touchpads have dedicated buttons (or areas marked as virtual buttons) for
   clicking. Why is another way to click needed?
(Reasons 2 and 3 are probably also why upstream does 1, so it's also 
pointless to ask upstream to change the default.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Nikos Roussos]

On 11/18/2014 12:12 AM, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:27:53PM +0300, Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
>> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
>> by tapping is off by default.
>> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
>> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
>> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
>> and Linux distributions.
>>
>> What can we do to make this happen?
> 
> This comes up every couple of versions, so here is the reasoning for
> disabled by default:
> 
> * if you don't know that tapping is a thing (or enabled by default), you get
>   spurious button events that make the desktop feel buggy.
> * if you do know what tapping is and you want it, you usually know where to
>   enable it, or at least you can search for it.

Well, in practice most users just think it's broken.

You forgot one case though.

* If you know what tapping is and you don't want it (enabled by
default), you know where to go to disable it.




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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Kevin Kofler]

Björn Persson wrote:
> Possibly, but there is also the risk of accidentally tapping when you
> only want to move the pointer but your finger happens to tremble a
> little. (That's not about Parkinson's disease. Even to perfectly healthy
> people it's difficult to hold absolutely still.)

With tapping enabled, I even accidentally click as soon as I move the finger 
to the touchpad, unless I remember that it's a broken tapping-enabled setup 
and so I have to be extra soft at it. Different behavior depending on the 
strength of the finger-touchpad contact really sucks.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[Andrew Lutomirski]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:09 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
 wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Andrew Lutomirski  wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
>>  wrote:
>>> Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
>>> LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
>>>
>>> Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
>>> I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
>>> XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
>>
>> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
>> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
>> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
>>
>> --Andy
>
> Andy do you have any ideas how to disable "i915 fast suspend/resume" ?

Try i915.fastboot=0, I think.  Although that seems to be the default,
so I may be off-base here.

You could also try intel_iommu=on and/or intel_iommu=off -- there are
historical issues there.

TBH, though, given the luks involvement, this could be some nasty
plymouth interaction.  Fiddling with quiet and rhgb could help.

Also, booting with no_console_suspend might give a better error message.

--Andy
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[poma]

On 17.11.2014 22:53, Corey Sheldon wrote:
> uname -mr ?
> 

man 1 uname
...

   -r, --kernel-release
  print the kernel release
   ...
   -m, --machine
  print the machine hardware name


> Corey W Sheldon
> Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
> 310.909.7672
> www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine
> 
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:21 AM, poma  wrote:
> 
>> On 17.11.2014 13:53, Corey Sheldon wrote:
>>> It wasn't UEFI or bios on my dell -- was a issue with my pre-built luks
>>> Crypt & systemd   I let the installer create the LUKSLVM no more issues
>>>
>>> Corey W Sheldon
>>> Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
>>> 310.909.7672
>>> www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:04 PM, poma 
>> wrote:
>>>
 On 17.11.2014 01:04, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>> Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
>> LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
>>
>> Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
>> I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
>> XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
>
> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
>
> --Andy
>
>>
>> Lucky you.
>> Valentino simply gives too little information about what is happening with
>> his machine, so conclude a thing cannot be. ;)
>> Is it a hw defect, lack of functionality via the kernel acpi parameter or
>> marmot ain't wrapped chocolate, who knows.
>>

 Whatever 'smell' is, beside homework, can also inquire here:

 Lenovo Community - X Series ThinkPad Laptops


>> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/bd-p/X_Series_Thinkpads

 Linux-Thinkpad -- This list for users of Linux on IBM Thinkpads.
 http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad
 http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hardware.thinkpad

 ibm-acpi-devel -- thinkpad-acpi/ibm-acpi Linux driver development
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ibm-acpi-devel

 Resume does not work on ThinkPad X1 Carbon (2014) [NEEDINFO]
 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1084742


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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
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> 
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[valent.turko...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Corey Sheldon  wrote:
> It wasn't UEFI or bios on my dell -- was a issue with my pre-built luks
> Crypt & systemd   I let the installer create the LUKSLVM no more issues

Sheldon how have you tracked down this issue to pre-build luks and systemd?

I'm also using pre-build luks partition layout and not one that
installer wanted to setup becuase I have two drives and need custom
partitioning that it too complicated for installer to handle.

But after switching from "regular" to "debugging" kernel now Fedora 21
suspend/resume works 100% reliably, so just try for your self also and
report back the results.

Cheers,
Valent.
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Peter Hutterer]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:27:53PM +0300, Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
> by tapping is off by default.
> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
> and Linux distributions.
> 
> What can we do to make this happen?

This comes up every couple of versions, so here is the reasoning for
disabled by default:

* if you don't know that tapping is a thing (or enabled by default), you get
  spurious button events that make the desktop feel buggy.
* if you do know what tapping is and you want it, you usually know where to
  enable it, or at least you can search for it.

Cheers,
   Peter
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[valent.turko...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Andrew Lutomirski  wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>> Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
>> LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
>>
>> Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
>> I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
>> XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
>
> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
>
> --Andy

Andy do you have any ideas how to disable "i915 fast suspend/resume" ?
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[valent.turko...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Jonathan Corbet  wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:28:27 -0500
> "Jared K. Smith"  wrote:
>
>> > Currently there are reports that Fedora 21 beta fails to resume from
>> > suspend-to-ram on X1 Carbon
>>
>> Update the UEFI firmware on your X1 Carbon, and that will probably fix your
>> problem.  It certainly did for me.
>
> No such luck here.  Resume fails with 1.16 and, just recently tried, 1.17.
>
> FWIW, almost every other distribution I've tried works; this seems to be
> a Fedora-specific problem.
>
> jon

Jup, it looks to me also to be Fedora specific issue. Have you tried
using "debugging" kernel on Fedora 21? With debugging kernel
suspend/resume work as expected for me.
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[Corey Sheldon]

uname -mr ?



Corey W Sheldon
Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
310.909.7672
www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:21 AM, poma  wrote:

> On 17.11.2014 13:53, Corey Sheldon wrote:
> > It wasn't UEFI or bios on my dell -- was a issue with my pre-built luks
> > Crypt & systemd   I let the installer create the LUKSLVM no more issues
> >
> > Corey W Sheldon
> > Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
> > 310.909.7672
> > www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:04 PM, poma 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 17.11.2014 01:04, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
> >>>  wrote:
>  Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
>  LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
> 
>  Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
>  I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
>  XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
> >>>
> >>> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
> >>> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
> >>> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
> >>>
> >>> --Andy
> >>>
>
> Lucky you.
> Valentino simply gives too little information about what is happening with
> his machine, so conclude a thing cannot be. ;)
> Is it a hw defect, lack of functionality via the kernel acpi parameter or
> marmot ain't wrapped chocolate, who knows.
>
> >>
> >> Whatever 'smell' is, beside homework, can also inquire here:
> >>
> >> Lenovo Community - X Series ThinkPad Laptops
> >>
> >>
> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/bd-p/X_Series_Thinkpads
> >>
> >> Linux-Thinkpad -- This list for users of Linux on IBM Thinkpads.
> >> http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad
> >> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hardware.thinkpad
> >>
> >> ibm-acpi-devel -- thinkpad-acpi/ibm-acpi Linux driver development
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ibm-acpi-devel
> >>
> >> Resume does not work on ThinkPad X1 Carbon (2014) [NEEDINFO]
> >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1084742
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Samuel Sieb]

On 11/17/2014 12:54 PM, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler  said:

IMHO, we should not let proprietary drivers hold us hostage that way. We do
not and should not support them. We don't even ship them. So we should just
upgrade X if the software we ship is ready for it. If some proprietary
driver breaks, its users get to keep the pieces.


I agree to some extent, but in the real world, there are a significant
number of Fedora users that use such third-party software.  Breaking it
with no consideration will end up pushing users to other distributions,
which shouldn't be done without forethought.

My opinion is strongly in line with Kevin, but Chris has a good point. 
However, isn't it possible to have both.  I'm not familiar with the 
proprietary drivers other than knowing that the NVidia one is available 
through rpmfusion.  (Out of the many varieties of laptops I've installed 
Fedora on (at least 30 different models from various manufacturers), 
I've only had one that required the NVidia driver.)  If the proprietary 
driver has a strong dependency on a certain X version, won't that just 
stop the X server from being upgraded?  In that case, everyone using the 
open drivers can upgrade and the others will just not get the new X 
server until they have new drivers available.  I expect this doesn't 
work if you compile from source though.  Are there many people that do that?

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:27 PM, Reindl Harald 
wrote:

> forget it


Yup, that really perfectly sums it up.  The introduction of ads by Mozilla
breaks no Fedora policy, period, end of story.  Notwithstanding the fact
that they are unobtrusive and ridiculously simple to disable.  The only
viable real world free alternative is the Chromium project and it hasn't
yet made it into the official Fedora repository.  The only result from
removing Firefox would be to unnecessarily piss off a vast number of users.

If anything, the resources and angst over Firefox ads should be redirected
to assist in cleaning up whatever mess is preventing Chromium from finally
getting into the official Fedora repositories.
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Reindl Harald]

Am 17.11.2014 um 22:25 schrieb DJ Delorie:

Not every user understands the connection between "website does not
work" -> "firewall configuration"


True, which means that we have to use words that they *do* understand


forget it

really, after working more than a decade with every sort of users from 
high technical ones to just a ordinary user: forget it, you can use 
whatever words you want - nobody will read them






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Orphaned Packages in branched (2014-11-17)

[opensource]

The following packages are orphaned and will be retired when they
are orphaned for six weeks, unless someone adopts them. If you know for sure
that the package should be retired, please do so now with a proper reason:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

Note: If you received this mail directly you (co)maintain one of the affected
packages or a package that depends on one. Please adopt the affected package or
retire your depending package to avoid broken dependencies, otherwise your
package will be retired when the affected package gets retired.

Package(co)maintainersStatus Change 
===
clc-intercal  orphan, iarnell 1 weeks ago   
cone  orphan, steve   1 weeks ago   
create-tx-configuration   orphan, sparks  4 weeks ago   
dbus-toolsorphan, miminar 1 weeks ago   
fldigi-docorphan, dp670 weeks ago   
mojomojo  orphan, iarnell, perl-sig   1 weeks ago   
sqlgrey   orphan, steve   1 weeks ago   
vim-perl-support  orphan, iarnell 1 weeks ago   

The following packages require above mentioned packages:
Affected (co)maintainers
dp67: fldigi-doc
iarnell: mojomojo, vim-perl-support, clc-intercal
miminar: dbus-tools
perl-sig: mojomojo
sparks: create-tx-configuration
steve: sqlgrey, cone

Orphans (8): clc-intercal cone create-tx-configuration dbus-tools
fldigi-doc mojomojo sqlgrey vim-perl-support


Orphans (dependend on) (0):


Orphans for at least 6 weeks (dependend on) (0):


Orphans (not depended on) (8): clc-intercal cone
create-tx-configuration dbus-tools fldigi-doc mojomojo sqlgrey
vim-perl-support


Orphans for at least 6 weeks (not dependend on) (0):

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[DJ Delorie]

> Not every user understands the connection between "website does not
> work" -> "firewall configuration"

True, which means that we have to use words that they *do* understand.

For extra coolness, a per-user firewall and some way of popping up a
query dialog when they violate a firewall rule.  "We detected you're
trying to access *mozilla.com, which is currently blocked due to your
privacy choices.  Would you like to enable access to *mozilla.com at
this time?"

Not that I expect such a tool to be practical, if even possible... ;-)
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Orphaned Packages in rawhide (2014-11-17)

[opensource]

The following packages are orphaned and will be retired when they
are orphaned for six weeks, unless someone adopts them. If you know for sure
that the package should be retired, please do so now with a proper reason:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_remove_a_package_at_end_of_life

Note: If you received this mail directly you (co)maintain one of the affected
packages or a package that depends on one. Please adopt the affected package or
retire your depending package to avoid broken dependencies, otherwise your
package will be retired when the affected package gets retired.

  Package   (co)maintainers  Status Change 
==
clc-intercal  orphan, iarnell1 weeks ago   
cone  orphan, steve  1 weeks ago   
create-tx-configuration   orphan, sparks 4 weeks ago   
dbus-toolsorphan, miminar1 weeks ago   
fldigi-docorphan, dp67   0 weeks ago   
mojomojo  orphan, iarnell, perl-sig  1 weeks ago   
perl-Lingua-EN-Numbers-Easy   orphan, churchyard, perl-sig   2 weeks ago   
sqlgrey   orphan, steve  1 weeks ago   
vim-perl-support  orphan, iarnell1 weeks ago   

The following packages require above mentioned packages:
Affected (co)maintainers
churchyard: perl-Lingua-EN-Numbers-Easy
dp67: fldigi-doc
iarnell: mojomojo, vim-perl-support, clc-intercal
miminar: dbus-tools
perl-sig: mojomojo, perl-Lingua-EN-Numbers-Easy
sparks: create-tx-configuration
steve: sqlgrey, cone

Orphans (9): clc-intercal cone create-tx-configuration dbus-tools
fldigi-doc mojomojo perl-Lingua-EN-Numbers-Easy sqlgrey
vim-perl-support


Orphans (dependend on) (0):


Orphans for at least 6 weeks (dependend on) (0):


Orphans (not depended on) (9): clc-intercal cone
create-tx-configuration dbus-tools fldigi-doc mojomojo
perl-Lingua-EN-Numbers-Easy sqlgrey vim-perl-support


Orphans for at least 6 weeks (not dependend on) (0):

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Reindl Harald]

Am 17.11.2014 um 22:16 schrieb drago01:

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:57 PM, DJ Delorie  wrote:



Ugh .. sorry but that's the worst suggestion so far. No image the user
goes to http://addons.mozilla.org/ to install addons ... it won't
work. (just one random example but you get the idea).


I imagine the user would change the start page to about:blank, then
open the firewall, then everything works as normal.

Of course, this only works for single-user machines.  A multi-user
machine wouldn't protect the second user to run Firefox.


Not every user understands the connection between "website does not
work" -> "firewall configuration"


not a single "non-tech" user does

whatever that discussion is worth: throw away firefox because a issue 
you have on 90% of all websites and force users to use a different 
browser don't work


in the best case they download the binary from mozilla.org because they 
want it (especially users working on more than one OS trying to have the 
same software whenever possible on all of them) or ask yourself if a 
different distribution works better (better from the users point of view)


you need to outweight the win and the damage

these days you have two user groups:
 * tech users who cares: set about:blank
 * normal users -> don't care

if somebody removes Firefox from the repos i just continue to use it 
without packages - no auto updates or make the install dir writeable for 
everyone - the second option throws away security for excatly what benefit?


surely - *i can* care about that and call FF one a week for update it, 
the majority of users won't do that without any "but", "or" and "if"




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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[drago01]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:57 PM, DJ Delorie  wrote:
>
>> Ugh .. sorry but that's the worst suggestion so far. No image the user
>> goes to http://addons.mozilla.org/ to install addons ... it won't
>> work. (just one random example but you get the idea).
>
> I imagine the user would change the start page to about:blank, then
> open the firewall, then everything works as normal.
>
> Of course, this only works for single-user machines.  A multi-user
> machine wouldn't protect the second user to run Firefox.

Not every user understands the connection between "website does not
work" -> "firewall configuration"
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 17 November 2014 13:57, DJ Delorie  wrote:

>
> > Ugh .. sorry but that's the worst suggestion so far. No image the user
> > goes to http://addons.mozilla.org/ to install addons ... it won't
> > work. (just one random example but you get the idea).
>
> I imagine the user would change the start page to about:blank, then
> open the firewall, then everything works as normal.
>
> Of course, this only works for single-user machines.  A multi-user
> machine wouldn't protect the second user to run Firefox.
>

In the days of CDN's and other tricks to deal with no more IPv4 ips you
can't block *.mozilla.org without also blocking everything from CNN to your
local bank. The ips may change all the time or they may be leased to
someplace for a short time.


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[DJ Delorie]

> Ugh .. sorry but that's the worst suggestion so far. No image the user
> goes to http://addons.mozilla.org/ to install addons ... it won't
> work. (just one random example but you get the idea).

I imagine the user would change the start page to about:blank, then
open the firewall, then everything works as normal.

Of course, this only works for single-user machines.  A multi-user
machine wouldn't protect the second user to run Firefox.
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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler  said:
> IMHO, we should not let proprietary drivers hold us hostage that way. We do 
> not and should not support them. We don't even ship them. So we should just 
> upgrade X if the software we ship is ready for it. If some proprietary 
> driver breaks, its users get to keep the pieces.

I agree to some extent, but in the real world, there are a significant
number of Fedora users that use such third-party software.  Breaking it
with no consideration will end up pushing users to other distributions,
which shouldn't be done without forethought.
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[drago01]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:32 PM, DJ Delorie  wrote:
>
>> That's also a questionable "feature". Such a text box should not send
>> anything before you confirm it.
>
> Perhaps as part of the firewall installation step, the user could be
> given a list of sites that their PC may "call home" to - including
> official repos - and let them opt-in or opt-out accordingly.  If we
> block, say, *.mozilla.com at the firewall level, there's no chance
> that firefox will call home before the user has a chance to set their
> preferences.

Ugh .. sorry but that's the worst suggestion so far. No image the user
goes to http://addons.mozilla.org/ to install addons ... it won't
work. (just one random example but you get the idea).
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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Kevin Kofler]

Adam Jackson wrote:
> One thing we might have to play by ear is the interaction with binary
> drivers.  The nvidia legacy driver, for instance, does not always have
> builds available for arbitrarily new servers, which means updating the X
> server might change you to an nvidia driver that no longer supports your
> hardware.  Depending on how severe that cutoff is, it might be cause to
> pin a particular Fedora release at a given server version.  I don't
> think this is presently a problem, but it could be in the future.

IMHO, we should not let proprietary drivers hold us hostage that way. We do 
not and should not support them. We don't even ship them. So we should just 
upgrade X if the software we ship is ready for it. If some proprietary 
driver breaks, its users get to keep the pieces.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[DJ Delorie]

> That's also a questionable "feature". Such a text box should not send 
> anything before you confirm it.

Perhaps as part of the firewall installation step, the user could be
given a list of sites that their PC may "call home" to - including
official repos - and let them opt-in or opt-out accordingly.  If we
block, say, *.mozilla.com at the firewall level, there's no chance
that firefox will call home before the user has a chance to set their
preferences.

Of course, we'd need an obvious way to let them opt-in later, after
they've set their preferences, else "why doesn't google work?" and
"why can't I yum update?" will become FAQs.
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Kevin Kofler]

Florian Weimer wrote:
> And I'm sorry to say that I think the UI is still confusing and may not
> achieve the goal of obtaining informed consent.

For example, do users realize that using the retrace server means sending 
the backtrace to the server, so they have effectively uploaded it even if 
they're not attaching it to the bug report (or even not filing a bug report 
at all)?

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Kevin Kofler]

Nikos Roussos wrote:
> And a user may accidentally start searching on the Google search box
> before she realizes that she sends data to Google "as she types" (that's
> how you get recommendations).

That's also a questionable "feature". Such a text box should not send 
anything before you confirm it.

(And I don't like separate search boxes as a UI element to begin with, I 
like Konqueror's "web shortcuts" feature, where I can just type gg: and my 
search query in the address bar.)

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Suggested Freeze Policy change for Fedora 22+

[Stephen Gallagher]

On Sun, 2014-11-09 at 23:45 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Matthew Miller wrote:
> > Kevin, I'm missing something here. You're right that the QA hero runs
> > are done to prevent slips, but I'm not seeing the logical connection
> > between what Stephen suggests and _banning_ them. The idea is to make
> > them less likely to be necessary with the cooparation of packagers as
> > we go up to the release.
> 
> Well, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> > 2. At 1600 UTC on the Monday preceding Go/No-Go, a check of the known
>  
>new strict deadline
> > Blocker list must be performed. If there are any blocker bugs that are
>
>MUST
> > not marked as MODIFIED or ON_QA (meaning that they are filed as an
> > update in Bodhi), then the Go/No-Go meeting that week is canceled (or
> > converted to a Blocker Bug review) and a slip is *automatic*.
>  ^
>  says it all
> 
> > 3. Relevant to the above, a Release Candidate compose must be started
> 
> MUST
> > immediately after the above blocker review and must complete
> > successfully by 1300 UTC on Tuesday. Otherwise, the Go/No-Go meeting
>   ^^^
>   another new strict deadline
> > that week is canceled  (or converted to a Blocker Bug review) and
> > a slip is *automatic*.
>   ^
>says it all, again
> 
> > 4. If *new* blockers are discovered (or regressed) between the Monday
> > blocker review and Thursday Go/No-Go, it is *permissible* for another
> > compose to be created if the following conditions are met:
> >  a. The fix is capable of being produced and built quickly.
> >  b. There is at least 24 hours remaining between the expected completion
>^^^
>  yet another new strict deadline
> > of the compose and the Go/No-Go meeting.
> 
> So how do those new strict rules NOT ban preventing a slip? They spell out 3 
> strict deadlines which, if they are not met, AUTOMATICALLY trigger a slip.

Apologies for the late response; I've been at a conference all last
week.

These new rules don't ban "preventing a slip", they attempt to eliminate
the unreasonable demands we're putting on our volunteer QA team *every
week during Freeze*. It's gotten out of hand and it's burning people
out.

The primary problem is that when we slip, there has never been a clear
statement made about when exactly when the deadline is for devs to get
their fixes in. Historically, devs have been operating under the
assumption that as long as a package lands before the next Go/No-Go
meeting, but that has failed to account for the time needed to create a
new Test Compose (which takes approx. 8 hours right now) as well as time
to have the QA team re-run the Release Validation tests (which takes an
absolute minimum of 20 hours fueled by caffeine and adrenaline). This
constant pause-then-panic situation is untenable and needs to be
addressed.

By instituting the above plan, we will be much more transparent about
what the deadlines are for all participants (dev/maintainers, rel-eng
and QA) and we relieve the latter two of some of their panicked efforts
if we get to the Monday Blocker Review and it's clear that there is no
realistic chance that the Thursday Go/No-Go will rule in favor.

I considered making a modification to the slip-rule for the Monday
blocker meeting that would allow us to *on rare occasions* add a single
day to the devel cycle (if, for example, the last blocker fix is known
and being prepared already), but I hesitated to include it in the policy
for fear that it would be misused.

Instead, perhaps we can just add the following line to the policy as
written:

"A one-time exception to the policy may be made if there is a unanimous
agreement between the development (FESCo) representative, the rel-eng
representative and the QA representative at the Monday Blocker Review
meeting".


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Re: RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Simone Caronni]

On 17 November 2014 20:06, Adam Jackson  wrote:

> Since the modular X repackaging in FC5, we have limited X server updates
> such that the ABI does not change.  F20 shipped with xserver 1.14.4, for
> example, so we might update it to 1.14.7 but not to 1.15.0.  With the
> reduced driver set in F21 it's now much more reasonable to push updates
> to older releases as well.
>
> With that in mind, I ask for feedback on how we'd actually like that to
> work.  The kernel rebase policy seems like a pretty reasonable model:
> F21 would stay on 1.16.x until there's an upstream 1.17.1 release, and
> (if F20 were to be affected by this policy) F20 would wait until 1.17.1
> had been tested in F21.
>
> One thing we might have to play by ear is the interaction with binary
> drivers.  The nvidia legacy driver, for instance, does not always have
> builds available for arbitrarily new servers, which means updating the X
> server might change you to an nvidia driver that no longer supports your
> hardware.  Depending on how severe that cutoff is, it might be cause to
> pin a particular Fedora release at a given server version.  I don't
> think this is presently a problem, but it could be in the future.
>
> This would also want some coordination with the various desktop
> environments; the version of KDE in F21 might have latent bugs only
> exposed by switching to F22's X, for example.  I have a reasonable idea
> of how to test Gnome for that kind of thing, but for the others I'd need
> some pointers.
>
> So what do we think?  Good idea?  Bad idea?  Other things to watch for?


Looks like the policy for RHEL. Right now my RHEL 6.x systems have X 1.15
from official updates, which is even newer than the Fedora 20 X server. If
it can be done for even older RHEL releases that are supposed to keep ABI
stability I don't know why it could not be done for Fedora.

Maybe pushing not-the-very latest X.org server in stable releases would
prevent disruption with binary drivers, just like what is happening for
RHEL. Just my 2c.

Regards,
--Simone


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Re: Join to Mozilla Location Service in Fedora

[Kevin Kofler]

Martin Stransky wrote:
> as you may know [0] Firefox in Fedora [1] is using Mozilla Location
> service [2] as a location provider instead of the Google one.
> 
> I'd like to ask you to join the project, install the Mozilla Stumbler
> application [3] and help to improve the location accuracy.

The Mozilla Location database is proprietary, and thus we should neither 
contribute nor encourage contributing to it, but instead support one or both 
of the following projects:
http://www.openwlanmap.org/
http://www.openbmap.org/

Kevin Kofler

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Gerald B. Cox]

People keep bringing up policy violations, but when asked you either get
"crickets" or the subject slightly changed.  The only policy that I could
find that might apply would be Fedora Forbidden Items
 and if
you read it, you'll find that it absolutely does not apply in this
situation.

Now, let's be somewhat pragmatic here... you're going to get rid of Firefox
(which doesn't violate any Fedora policies) and replace it with exactly
what? Konqueror, Web (the browser formally known as Epiphany), Midori,
etc.?  Really?  Does anyone seriously believe that these products would be
embraced by our user base?  Someone mentioned IceCat earlier... I installed
the current version in the Fedora 20 repository and let's just say that it
had a few formatting issues and leave it at that.  The vast majority of
folks are just going to roll their eyes and install Firefox or Google
Chrome.


On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 07:08:36PM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > >>So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
> > >>"New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.
> > >So, here's a (genuine) question: how is this behavior different, from a
> > >Fedora policy point of view, than if the default for new tabs were to
> > >go to , and Mozilla ran advertisements on
> > >that page?
> > IMO, the default of https://start.mozilla.org violates fedora
> > policies and ought to be changed.
>
> Ralf, what policies are you referring to here?
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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RFC: xserver update strategy in F21+

[Adam Jackson]

Since the modular X repackaging in FC5, we have limited X server updates
such that the ABI does not change.  F20 shipped with xserver 1.14.4, for
example, so we might update it to 1.14.7 but not to 1.15.0.  With the
reduced driver set in F21 it's now much more reasonable to push updates
to older releases as well.

With that in mind, I ask for feedback on how we'd actually like that to
work.  The kernel rebase policy seems like a pretty reasonable model:
F21 would stay on 1.16.x until there's an upstream 1.17.1 release, and
(if F20 were to be affected by this policy) F20 would wait until 1.17.1
had been tested in F21.

One thing we might have to play by ear is the interaction with binary
drivers.  The nvidia legacy driver, for instance, does not always have
builds available for arbitrarily new servers, which means updating the X
server might change you to an nvidia driver that no longer supports your
hardware.  Depending on how severe that cutoff is, it might be cause to
pin a particular Fedora release at a given server version.  I don't
think this is presently a problem, but it could be in the future.

This would also want some coordination with the various desktop
environments; the version of KDE in F21 might have latent bugs only
exposed by switching to F22's X, for example.  I have a reasonable idea
of how to test Gnome for that kind of thing, but for the others I'd need
some pointers.

So what do we think?  Good idea?  Bad idea?  Other things to watch for?

- ajax

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 07:08:36PM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >>So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
> >>"New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.
> >So, here's a (genuine) question: how is this behavior different, from a
> >Fedora policy point of view, than if the default for new tabs were to
> >go to , and Mozilla ran advertisements on
> >that page?
> IMO, the default of https://start.mozilla.org violates fedora
> policies and ought to be changed.

Ralf, what policies are you referring to here?


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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Felix Miata]

drago01 composed on 2014-11-17 16:53 (UTC+0100):

> Björn Persson wrote:

>> Possibly, but there is also the risk of accidentally tapping when you
>> only want to move the pointer but your finger happens to tremble a
>> little. (That's not about Parkinson's disease. Even to perfectly healthy
>> people it's difficult to hold absolutely still.)

> Sure you can find corner cases for pretty much everything. You may
> also hit a button on the keyboard by accident.
> Its a question of how likely it will happen and what the consequences are.

-->

Björn Persson composed on 2014-11-17 15:05 (UTC+0100):

> Needing to enable a feature that I know I want doesn't bother
> me much. Being forced to grope in the dark for the cause of a weird
> problem bothers me a lot.

+1

When people get older, such accidents happen more, and get more frustrating.
I wish there was a global way at installation time to make DND not exist, so
that no user on that installation could ever be faced with an accidental DND
making something disappear.

Accidents aren't always really accidents. Mouse buttons sometimes register
two (or more) clicks when one is wanted, totally changing the consequence
from that expected.

Least surprise defaults please. Fedora doesn't need to copy Ubuntu, which
copied Windows/Mac/whatever. Better decisions make a better product. Fedora
doesn't need to exist if it can't strive to be better than the rest, and
please the users it already has.
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"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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[FREEZE REMINDER] Fedora 21 Final Freeze is tomorrow

[Stephen Gallagher]

As the $SUBJECT says, tomorrow we go into the two-week Final Freeze for
Fedora 21. That means that you need to have all of the packages that you
want to see land in Fedora 21 submitted for stable by the end of the day
*today*. After that point, we will initiate the Final Freeze Policy,
where you will need to request a Freeze Exception (or be fixing a
Blocker bug) in order to get changes into the Final release. Anything
else will be deferred to the [updates] repo for release day.


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 11/17/2014 09:35 AM, Florian Weimer wrote:

On 11/16/2014 06:31 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On 11/15/2014 11:41 PM, Johannes Lips wrote:


I don't really understand the issue at all.



We have a "no-phone-home" and "no-spy" policy in Fedora.


I don't think we do.

It's should be to be part of the FPG ;)

We (FPC) were fighting packages phoning home since the earliest days of 
FPC - You might recall the discussions on phone-home and data-privacy in 
smolt, abrt and packages wanting to add "3rd party repos".


I also believe to recall FPC once having discussed how to handle 
packages which distribute ads, but I don't recall us having taken a 
decision - I personally, would be very strongly opposed to this, because 
this would open a can of worms in many areas.



It's certainly an area, which in the ages of espionage, big-data, ads 
and virus-infected ads needs to be clarified.



Anaconda, for example, phones home even before you select the
installation media.
What does it transmit? IIRC, the only permitted "phone-home" was 
accessing "yum metadata" and mirrorlists.


Ralf


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 11/17/2014 04:14 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:


On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 02:25:48PM +0100, Lars Seipel wrote:

So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
"New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.


So, here's a (genuine) question: how is this behavior different, from a
Fedora policy point of view, than if the default for new tabs were to
go to , and Mozilla ran advertisements on
that page?


IMO, the default of https://start.mozilla.org violates fedora policies 
and ought to be changed.


It's a phone-home function, which can only be opted out by digging into 
preferences.


Ralf


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 06:31:39AM +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> >I don't really understand the issue at all.
> We have a "no-phone-home" and "no-spy" policy in Fedora.

*Is* there a formal, written policy somewhere? (And, while related to
the advertising issue, this seems separate in many ways.)


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Chuck Anderson]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 02:25:48PM +0100, Lars Seipel wrote:
> So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
> "New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.

I started seeing the advertisement tiles on my existing profile.
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[drago01]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Björn Persson  wrote:
> drago01  wrote:
>> Things are not black and white there is a "disable touchpad while typing"
>> option which would solve your problem while not making the impression that
>> something is broken like it is now.
>
> Possibly, but there is also the risk of accidentally tapping when you
> only want to move the pointer but your finger happens to tremble a
> little. (That's not about Parkinson's disease. Even to perfectly healthy
> people it's difficult to hold absolutely still.)

Sure you can find corner cases for pretty much everything. You may
also hit a button on the keyboard by accident.
Its a question of how likely it will happen and what the consequences are.
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 02:25:48PM +0100, Lars Seipel wrote:
> So Mozilla has recently gone live with its advertisement tiles on the
> "New Tab" page. Only newly created profiles get to see this stuff.

So, here's a (genuine) question: how is this behavior different, from a
Fedora policy point of view, than if the default for new tabs were to
go to , and Mozilla ran advertisements on
that page? 


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 02:32:39PM +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> Also having the Fedora policy be clear and unambiguous.  Who would
> deal with that?  FESCO?  The Board (or whatever it's called these days)?

FESCo for the technical side, board for high-level guidance.


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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Mustafa Muhammad]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Björn Persson  wrote:
> drago01  wrote:
>> Things are not black and white there is a "disable touchpad while typing"
>> option which would solve your problem while not making the impression that
>> something is broken like it is now.
>
> Possibly, but there is also the risk of accidentally tapping when you
> only want to move the pointer but your finger happens to tremble a
> little. (That's not about Parkinson's disease. Even to perfectly healthy
> people it's difficult to hold absolutely still.)
>
> Does anyone care to present some evidence showing that this works well
> for people in general? Note that I'm not against changing this default.
> I'm against changing it based on nothing but a baseless belief that it
> won't bother people.

I don't want to change this because I believe it doesn't bother
people, but because almost every other OS and Linux distribution have
it enabled by default, and when people try to use Fedora and they
can't tap to click, they have the impression that this is broken,
Linux is bad, can't handle a touchpad right.
By the way, "Disable touchpad when writing" is enabled by default, so
this should not affect typing.

Regards
Mustafa
>
> Björn Persson
>
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[poma]

On 17.11.2014 13:53, Corey Sheldon wrote:
> It wasn't UEFI or bios on my dell -- was a issue with my pre-built luks
> Crypt & systemd   I let the installer create the LUKSLVM no more issues
> 
> Corey W Sheldon
> Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
> 310.909.7672
> www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine
> 
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:04 PM, poma  wrote:
> 
>> On 17.11.2014 01:04, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:
>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
>>>  wrote:
 Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
 LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.

 Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
 I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
 XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
>>>
>>> This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
>>> i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
>>> parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
>>>
>>> --Andy
>>>

Lucky you.
Valentino simply gives too little information about what is happening with his 
machine, so conclude a thing cannot be. ;)
Is it a hw defect, lack of functionality via the kernel acpi parameter or 
marmot ain't wrapped chocolate, who knows.

>>
>> Whatever 'smell' is, beside homework, can also inquire here:
>>
>> Lenovo Community - X Series ThinkPad Laptops
>>
>> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/bd-p/X_Series_Thinkpads
>>
>> Linux-Thinkpad -- This list for users of Linux on IBM Thinkpads.
>> http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad
>> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hardware.thinkpad
>>
>> ibm-acpi-devel -- thinkpad-acpi/ibm-acpi Linux driver development
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ibm-acpi-devel
>>
>> Resume does not work on ThinkPad X1 Carbon (2014) [NEEDINFO]
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1084742
>>
>>
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> 
> 
> 

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[POC-change] Fedora packages point of contact updates

[nobody]

Change in package status over the last 168 hours


26 packages were orphaned
-
altermime [el6, epel7, el5] was orphaned by pingou
 Alter MIME-encoded mailpacks
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/altermime
cone [f20, f21, f19, master, el6, el5] was orphaned by pingou
 CONE mail reader
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/cone
fldigi-doc [f21, f19, master, f20] was orphaned by dp67
 Documentation for the Fldigi project
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/fldigi-doc
perl-Archive-Extract [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Generic archive extracting mechanism
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Archive-Extract
perl-CPANPLUS [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Ameliorated interface to the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-CPANPLUS
perl-Cache-Cache [epel7] was orphaned by psabata
 Generic cache interface and implementations
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Cache-Cache
perl-Convert-TNEF [el6, epel7, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Perl module to read TNEF files
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Convert-TNEF
perl-DBD-CSV [el6, epel7, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 DBI driver for CSV files
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-DBD-CSV
perl-Devel-StackTrace [el6] was orphaned by psabata
 Perl module implementing stack trace and stack trace frame objects
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Devel-StackTrace
perl-File-Fetch [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Generic file fetching mechanism
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-File-Fetch
perl-IO-Tty [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Perl interface to pseudo tty's
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-IO-Tty
perl-IPC-Cmd [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Finding and running system commands made easy
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-IPC-Cmd
perl-IPC-Shareable [el6, epel7, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Share Perl variables between processes
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-IPC-Shareable
perl-Log-Dispatch-FileRotate [el6, epel7, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Log to files that archive/rotate themselves
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Log-Dispatch-FileRotate
perl-Log-Log4perl [el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Log4j implementation for Perl
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Log-Log4perl
perl-Log-Message [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Generic message storing mechanism
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Log-Message
perl-Log-Message-Simple [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Simplified interface to Log::Message
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Log-Message-Simple
perl-MLDBM [epel7] was orphaned by psabata
 Store multi-level hash structure in single level tied hash
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-MLDBM
perl-Module-Build [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Build and install Perl modules
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Module-Build
perl-Module-Load [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Run-time require of both modules and files
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Module-Load
perl-Module-Load-Conditional [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Looking up module information and loading at run-time
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Module-Load-Conditional
perl-Module-Pluggable [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Automatically give your module the ability to have plugins
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Module-Pluggable
perl-Params-Check [el6, el5] was orphaned by psabata
 Generic input parsing/checking mechanism
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perl-Params-Validate [el6] was orphaned by psabata
 Params-Validate Perl module
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/perl-Params-Validate
perl-TeX-Hyphen [epel7] was orphaned by psabata
 Hyphenate words using TeX's patterns
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sqlgrey [f20, f21, f19, master, el6, el5] was orphaned by pingou
 Postfix grey-listing policy service
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/sqlgrey

44 packages were retired
-
MiniCopier [master] was retired by till
 Graphical copy manager
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/MiniCopier
PgsLookAndFeel [master] was retired by till
 Nice looking LookAndFeel for Swing
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/PgsLookAndFeel
golang-github-gorilla-context [epel7] was retired by till
 A golang registry for global request variables
 https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/golang-github-g

[389-devel] please review: Ticket 47958 - Memory leak in password admin if the admin entry does not exist

[Mark Reynolds]

https://fedorahosted.org/389/ticket/47958/

https://fedorahosted.org/389/attachment/ticket/47958/0001-Ticket-47958-Memory-leak-in-password-admin-if-the-ad.patch
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Björn Persson]

drago01  wrote:
> Things are not black and white there is a "disable touchpad while typing"  
> option which would solve your problem while not making the impression that
> something is broken like it is now.

Possibly, but there is also the risk of accidentally tapping when you
only want to move the pointer but your finger happens to tremble a
little. (That's not about Parkinson's disease. Even to perfectly healthy
people it's difficult to hold absolutely still.)

Does anyone care to present some evidence showing that this works well
for people in general? Note that I'm not against changing this default.
I'm against changing it based on nothing but a baseless belief that it
won't bother people.

Björn Persson


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Reindl Harald]

Am 17.11.2014 um 15:28 schrieb Bruno Wolff III:

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 15:06:21 +0100,
  Reindl Harald  wrote:

Am 17.11.2014 um 14:41 schrieb Bruno Wolff III:

The referer header is sent by default. It isn't obvious how to disable
that


please don't propose disable the Referer globally
a samrt default would be
https://addons.mozilla.org/DE/firefox/addon/smart-referer/ to send it
only to the same domain


Having to install a third party package to do this doesn't make it
simple. This feature should be built in.


agreed - please try to convience Mozilla for that change instead propose 
send none at all



Some people may not want to supply referer headers when moving around
within sites. For that there should be a per domain override similar to
cookies.


everytime when people come out with "how to disable referrer,
javascript and the useragent" they have no clue what harm they are
doing for sane websites wich try to protect themself and their owners
from automated attacks / junk


Web sites should work just fine without a supplied user agent. If they
don't, they are broken. bots can forge common user agent strings easily,
relying on checking for user agent for security purposes is silly


i really do not need here to explain over a lot of text how you can 
*improve* the security of froms meaning "make it harder to submit them 
automated"



number of sites think there are only 3 or 4 different browers and refuse
to work if you aren't using one of them. Other web sites aren't designed
to handle the optional user agent header not being supplied and will
break needlessly


and a number of sites works around horrible browser bugs of old client 
software which sadly exists (the more business related a website is that 
more stone old clients are coming you can't refuse)


it would be way off-topic to explain what workarounds i needed to 
implement based on the user-agent to not hurt standard conform browsers 
and if it is only for image silders *only and really only* for MSIE8 add 
a ?random=time() to URL's because the cached ones break while other 
browsers happily can cache them instead load again and again the same stuff


if you ever worked more than 10 years in producing standard conform 
websites working on *any* browsers you would know what i mean




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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 15:06:21 +0100,
 Reindl Harald  wrote:


Am 17.11.2014 um 14:41 schrieb Bruno Wolff III:

Firefox is really not set up with privacy as a high priority. Some bad
things it does from a privacy perspective are:

If you type a name in the url bar and send, if the name dosn't match a
domain google is contacted. (And it is google even if you have some
other search engine set.)

OSCP is used to check for certificate revocations. For some threat
models this cure is worse than the disease. There should be an easy way
to disable this.


not such problem if more sites would be configured properly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCSP_stapling


That does sound like an improvement, but I haven't run across an easy way 
to enable that while disabling normal OCSP.



Javascript is not easy to disable without installing a third party
plugin, and the way that plugin works still leaves some exposure to
javascript related issues.


and everytime a newspaper recommends to disable it weeks later we got 
complaints that some forms don't work because tech to make it harder 
submit them automated until analyze what JS actions are expected


javascript is way too powerful to leave on for any old web site. Most 
web sites way over use it. Yes it is needed for web sites that are 
really applications, but most websites could be set up so they are 
usable without it. They just don't bother.



The referer header is sent by default. It isn't obvious how to disable
that


please don't propose disable the Referer globally
a samrt default would be 
https://addons.mozilla.org/DE/firefox/addon/smart-referer/ to send it 
only to the same domain


Having to install a third party package to do this doesn't make it simple. 
This feature should be built in.


Some people may not want to supply referer headers when moving around 
within sites. For that there should be a per domain override similar 
to cookies.


everytime when people come out with "how to disable referrer, 
javascript and the useragent" they have no clue what harm they are 
doing for sane websites wich try to protect themself and their owners 
from automated attacks / junk


Web sites should work just fine without a supplied user agent. If they 
don't, they are broken. bots can forge common user agent strings easily, 
relying on checking for user agent for security purposes is silly. 
A number of sites think there are only 3 or 4 different browers and refuse 
to work if you aren't using one of them. Other web sites aren't designed 
to handle the optional user agent header not being supplied and will 
break needlessly.

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 07:41:22AM -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:05:35 +0200,
>  Nikos Roussos  wrote:
> >
> >No. We are talking about the tiles. I didn't see anyone suggesting we
> >remove Google search. It's like the tiles feature crossed a line, which
> >is far from truth.
> 
> Firefox is really not set up with privacy as a high priority. Some
> bad things it does from a privacy perspective are:
> 
> If you type a name in the url bar and send, if the name dosn't match
> a domain google is contacted. (And it is google even if you have
> some other search engine set.)
> 
> OSCP is used to check for certificate revocations. For some threat
> models this cure is worse than the disease. There should be an easy
> way to disable this.
> 
> There is not a way to disable fetching all offsite references that
> aren't whitelisted. There is a hard way to do this for images, but
> there does not appear to be a way to do this for other object types.
> 
> The initial initial page is not set to about:blank, so that some
> site will be contacted (I think it is a Fedora page now.) before you
> have a chance to set it to about:blank in firefox. (It is possible
> to change this outside of Firefox, but it is hard.)
> 
> When firefox has a version update mozilla is contacted to present
> you with the release notes for the new version. It is possible to
> disable this, but it isn't really obvious how. (Even if you have
> done it before.)
> 
> Javascript is not easy to disable without installing a third party
> plugin, and the way that plugin works still leaves some exposure to
> javascript related issues.
> 
> There is a safe browsing feature that also will phone home.
> 
> If you look at the about:config menu you will see lots of URLs and
> it isn't clear when these URLs are used in many cases.
> 
> The referer header is sent by default. It isn't obvious how to disable that.
> 
> It isn't obvious how to disable remotes sites storing data locally.
> This feature can be used like cookies and should be easily
> controllable.

This is a good analysis.  However I hope people don't take away from
it "OMG there's nothing we can do".  We can work on making it better
incrementally, and fixing this advert tabs thing is a good place to
start.

Also having the Fedora policy be clear and unambiguous.  Who would
deal with that?  FESCO?  The Board (or whatever it's called these days)?

Rich.

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Re: Enable tapping by default

[drago01]

On Monday, November 17, 2014, Björn Persson  wrote:

> Mustafa Muhammad > wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Björn Persson  > wrote:
> > > Perhaps demonstrate that it won't cause the rest of us to click on
> > > random things by accident, instead of just thinking so?
> >
> > I didn't say that, I said, "I don't think it bothers the others that
> much".
>
> Then I can only conclude that you don't think it bothers people that
> much if they click on random things by accident. I know it would bother
> me, and I know one Windows user who had to disable tapping because the
> cursor kept jumping to random places in the text while she was typing.
>
> > It can be disabled, but we are talking about the what the default
> > behavior should be.
>
> Defaults should follow the principle of least surprise. A user who taps
> the touchpad and finds that nothing happens will have a good idea of
> what to look for in the settings. A user who repeatedly finds herself
> suddenly typing in the wrong place may have lots of trouble before she
> figures out that it happens when her palm gets too close to the
> touchpad. Needing to enable a feature that I know I want doesn't bother
> me much. Being forced to grope in the dark for the cause of a weird
> problem bothers me a lot.
>
>
> Things are not black and white there is a "disable touchpad while typing"
option which would solve your problem while not making the impression that
something is broken like it is now.
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Re: Removing packages that have broken dependencies in F21 tree

[Kalev Lember]

On 11/13/2014 02:20 PM, Kalev Lember wrote:
> To avoid that, I'll file a FESCo ticket next Monday to approve dropping
> the following packages, unless they get fixed first:

I've filed the ticket now: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1368

In addition, 3 broken dependencies have pending fixes. Would be good to
karma those up today so that they can be pushed to stable in advance of
the freeze tomorrow:

juffed: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/juffed-0.10-11.fc21
meshmagick: 
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/meshmagick-0.6.0-23.svn2898.fc21
totpcgi: 
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2014-15164/totpcgi-0.5.5-4.fc21

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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Reindl Harald]

Am 17.11.2014 um 14:41 schrieb Bruno Wolff III:

Firefox is really not set up with privacy as a high priority. Some bad
things it does from a privacy perspective are:

If you type a name in the url bar and send, if the name dosn't match a
domain google is contacted. (And it is google even if you have some
other search engine set.)

OSCP is used to check for certificate revocations. For some threat
models this cure is worse than the disease. There should be an easy way
to disable this.


not such problem if more sites would be configured properly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCSP_stapling


Javascript is not easy to disable without installing a third party
plugin, and the way that plugin works still leaves some exposure to
javascript related issues.


and everytime a newspaper recommends to disable it weeks later we got 
complaints that some forms don't work because tech to make it harder 
submit them automated until analyze what JS actions are expected



The referer header is sent by default. It isn't obvious how to disable
that


please don't propose disable the Referer globally
a samrt default would be 
https://addons.mozilla.org/DE/firefox/addon/smart-referer/ to send it 
only to the same domain


as example i require a referrer for captchas from the own domain to make 
it harder embed the captcha into some porn site and let users type it in


everytime when people come out with "how to disable referrer, javascript 
and the useragent" they have no clue what harm they are doing for sane 
websites wich try to protect themself and their owners from automated 
attacks / junk




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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Björn Persson]

Mustafa Muhammad  wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Björn Persson  wrote:
> > Perhaps demonstrate that it won't cause the rest of us to click on
> > random things by accident, instead of just thinking so?
> 
> I didn't say that, I said, "I don't think it bothers the others that much".

Then I can only conclude that you don't think it bothers people that
much if they click on random things by accident. I know it would bother
me, and I know one Windows user who had to disable tapping because the
cursor kept jumping to random places in the text while she was typing.

> It can be disabled, but we are talking about the what the default
> behavior should be.

Defaults should follow the principle of least surprise. A user who taps
the touchpad and finds that nothing happens will have a good idea of
what to look for in the settings. A user who repeatedly finds herself
suddenly typing in the wrong place may have lots of trouble before she
figures out that it happens when her palm gets too close to the
touchpad. Needing to enable a feature that I know I want doesn't bother
me much. Being forced to grope in the dark for the cause of a weird
problem bothers me a lot.

Björn Persson


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:05:35 +0200,
 Nikos Roussos  wrote:


No. We are talking about the tiles. I didn't see anyone suggesting we
remove Google search. It's like the tiles feature crossed a line, which
is far from truth.


Firefox is really not set up with privacy as a high priority. 
Some bad things it does from a privacy perspective are:


If you type a name in the url bar and send, if the name dosn't match a 
domain google is contacted. (And it is google even if you have some 
other search engine set.)


OSCP is used to check for certificate revocations. For some threat models 
this cure is worse than the disease. There should be an easy way to 
disable this.


There is not a way to disable fetching all offsite references that aren't 
whitelisted. There is a hard way to do this for images, but there does 
not appear to be a way to do this for other object types.


The initial initial page is not set to about:blank, so that some site will 
be contacted (I think it is a Fedora page now.) before you have a chance 
to set it to about:blank in firefox. (It is possible to change this outside 
of Firefox, but it is hard.)


When firefox has a version update mozilla is contacted to present you 
with the release notes for the new version. It is possible to disable 
this, but it isn't really obvious how. (Even if you have done it before.)


Javascript is not easy to disable without installing a third party plugin, 
and the way that plugin works still leaves some exposure to javascript 
related issues.


There is a safe browsing feature that also will phone home.

If you look at the about:config menu you will see lots of URLs and it 
isn't clear when these URLs are used in many cases.


The referer header is sent by default. It isn't obvious how to disable that.

It isn't obvious how to disable remotes sites storing data locally. This 
feature can be used like cookies and should be easily controllable.

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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Mustafa Muhammad]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Björn Persson  wrote:
> Mustafa Muhammad  wrote:
>> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
>> by tapping is off by default.
>> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
>> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
>> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
>> and Linux distributions.
>>
>> What can we do to make this happen?
>
> Perhaps demonstrate that it won't cause the rest of us to click on
> random things by accident, instead of just thinking so?

I didn't say that, I said, "I don't think it bothers the others that much".
It can be disabled, but we are talking about the what the default
behavior should be.

>
> Björn Persson
>
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Re: Suspend/resume broken on Lenovo laptops (Fedora 21 beta)

[Corey Sheldon]

It wasn't UEFI or bios on my dell -- was a issue with my pre-built luks
Crypt & systemd   I let the installer create the LUKSLVM no more issues

Corey W Sheldon
Freelance IT Consultant, Multi-Discipline Tutor
310.909.7672
www.facebook.com/1stclassmobileshine

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:04 PM, poma  wrote:

> On 17.11.2014 01:04, Andrew Lutomirski wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:01 PM, valent.turko...@gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >> Just a quick update - i got suspend/resume to once randomly work in
> >> LXDE environment, but after that again everytime it failed.
> >>
> >> Then I tried using "debugging" kernel on GRUB menu, and now each time
> >> I tried suspend/resume in all environments (GNOME 3, LXDE, Cinnamon,
> >> XFCE) it worked every time as expected.
> >
> > This smells like a no_console_suspend and/or whatever the new drm or
> > i915 fast suspend/resume thing is.  Are there interesting boot
> > parameters that differ between working and non-working configurations?
> >
> > --Andy
> >
>
> Whatever 'smell' is, beside homework, can also inquire here:
>
> Lenovo Community - X Series ThinkPad Laptops
>
> https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/bd-p/X_Series_Thinkpads
>
> Linux-Thinkpad -- This list for users of Linux on IBM Thinkpads.
> http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hardware.thinkpad
>
> ibm-acpi-devel -- thinkpad-acpi/ibm-acpi Linux driver development
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ibm-acpi-devel
>
> Resume does not work on ThinkPad X1 Carbon (2014) [NEEDINFO]
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1084742
>
>
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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Nikos Roussos]

On 11/17/2014 01:49 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
> Mustafa Muhammad  wrote:
>> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
>> by tapping is off by default.
>> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
>> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
>> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
>> and Linux distributions.
>>
>> What can we do to make this happen?
> 
> Perhaps demonstrate that it won't cause the rest of us to click on
> random things by accident, instead of just thinking so?

Although I also never user 'tap to click' I think most users expect this
to work by default.




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Re: Enable tapping by default

[Björn Persson]

Mustafa Muhammad  wrote:
> Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
> by tapping is off by default.
> Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
> tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
> the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
> and Linux distributions.
> 
> What can we do to make this happen?

Perhaps demonstrate that it won't cause the rest of us to click on
random things by accident, instead of just thinking so?

Björn Persson


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F-21 Branched report: 20141117 changes

[Fedora Branched Report]

Compose started at Mon Nov 17 07:15:03 UTC 2014
Broken deps for armhfp
--
[audtty]
audtty-0.1.12-9.fc20.armv7hl requires libaudclient.so.2
[authhub]
authhub-0.1.2-3.fc19.armv7hl requires libjson.so.0
[avro]
avro-mapred-1.7.5-9.fc21.noarch requires hadoop-mapreduce
avro-mapred-1.7.5-9.fc21.noarch requires hadoop-client
[deltacloud-core]
deltacloud-core-rackspace-1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch requires 
rubygem(cloudservers)
deltacloud-core-rackspace-1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch requires 
rubygem(cloudfiles)
[django-recaptcha]
django-recaptcha-0.1-7.20091212svn6.fc21.noarch requires python-django14
[dragonegg]
dragonegg-3.4-0.3.rc0.fc21.armv7hl requires gcc = 0:4.8.2-14.fc21
[edelib]
edelib-2.1-5.fc21.armv7hl requires libedelib.so
edelib-devel-2.1-5.fc21.armv7hl requires libedelib.so
[fatrat]
1:fatrat-1.2.0-0.21.beta2.fc21.armv7hl requires 
libtorrent-rasterbar.so.7
[flush]
flush-0.9.12-10.fc21.armv7hl requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.7
[gdesklet-SlideShow]
gdesklet-SlideShow-0.9-16.fc21.noarch requires gdesklets
[gdesklets-citation]
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[gofer]
ruby-gofer-0.77.1-2.fc21.noarch requires rubygem(qpid) >= 0:0.16.0
[juffed]
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[libghemical]
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libghemical-2.99.1-24.fc20.armv7hl requires libatlas.so.3
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[meshmagick]
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meshmagick-libs-0.6.0-20.svn2898.fc21.armv7hl requires 
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[monodevelop-vala]
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[openstack-nova]
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openvas-client-3.0.3-8.fc20.armv7hl requires libopenvas_hg.so.6
openvas-client-3.0.3-8.fc20.armv7hl requires libopenvas_base.so.6
[ostree]
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[php-pecl-sphinx]
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[pootle]
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[python-askbot-fedmsg]
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[python-django-longerusername]
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[spring-maps-default]
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[syntastic]
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[totpcgi]
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[transifex]
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[zyGrib]
zyGrib-6.1.4-3.fc20.armv7hl requires libnova-0.13.so.0



Broken deps for i386
--
[audtty]
audtty-0.1.12-9.fc20.i686 requires libaudclient.so.2
[authhub]
authhub-0.1.2-3.fc19.i686 requires libjson.so.0
[deltacloud-core]
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deltacloud-core-rackspace-1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch requires 
rubygem(cloudfiles)
[django-recaptcha]
django-recaptcha-0.1-7.20091212svn6.fc21.noarch requires python-django14
[dragonegg]
dragonegg-3.4-0.3.rc0.fc21.i686 requires gcc = 0:4.8.2-14.fc21
[edelib]
edelib-2.1-5.fc21.i686 requires libedelib.so
ed

Enable tapping by default

[Mustafa Muhammad]

Hi, I am testing Fedora 21 beta and -like all previous versions- click
by tapping is off by default.
Several bug reports concerning this were closed as NOTABUG, but
tapping is useful for us (people who use it), I don't think it bothers
the others that much, and is on by default in most operating systems
and Linux distributions.

What can we do to make this happen?

Regards
Mustafa Muhammad
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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[drago01]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Well, how to put it ... Mozilla.com's role in fedora has many times been
>> subject to controvercies, but doubts have always been ruled ;)
>
> They always get special exceptions for any and all Fedora policies that
> upstream does not want to comply with, with the excuse that otherwise we
> might lose the right to use the "Firefox" name (as if that were a
> catastrophe – Debian has been doing fine with "Iceweasel"). I'm totally fed
> up of that kind of unfair privileged treatment that NO other package in
> Fedora is getting.

Maybe no other package but Fedora itself. Criticizing Mozilla for
doing the same that we (Fedora) do is well ... hypocritical.
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Re: Geting back a package to a previous version

[Ismael Olea]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Kalev Lember  wrote:

> Yes


Thanks!


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rawhide report: 20141117 changes

[Fedora Rawhide Report]

Compose started at Mon Nov 17 05:15:04 UTC 2014
Broken deps for i386
--
[3Depict]
3Depict-0.0.16-3.fc22.i686 requires libmgl.so.7.2.0
[Sprog]
Sprog-0.14-27.fc20.noarch requires perl(:MODULE_COMPAT_5.18.0)
[audtty]
audtty-0.1.12-9.fc20.i686 requires libaudclient.so.2
[authhub]
authhub-0.1.2-3.fc19.i686 requires libjson.so.0
[cab]
cab-0.1.9-12.fc22.i686 requires cabal-dev
[condor]
condor-plumage-8.1.4-7.a1a7df5.fc22.i686 requires libmongoclient.so
[deltacloud-core]
deltacloud-core-rackspace-1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch requires 
rubygem(cloudservers)
deltacloud-core-rackspace-1.1.3-1.fc20.noarch requires 
rubygem(cloudfiles)
[django-recaptcha]
django-recaptcha-0.1-7.20091212svn6.fc21.noarch requires python-django14
[dnssec-check]
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.i686 requires libval-threads.so.14
dnssec-check-1.14.0.1-4.fc20.i686 requires libsres.so.14
[dragonegg]
dragonegg-3.4-0.3.rc0.fc21.i686 requires gcc = 0:4.8.2-14.fc21
[edelib]
edelib-2.1-5.fc22.i686 requires libedelib.so
edelib-devel-2.1-5.fc22.i686 requires libedelib.so
[fatrat]
1:fatrat-1.2.0-0.21.beta2.fc22.i686 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.7
[flush]
flush-0.9.12-10.fc22.i686 requires libtorrent-rasterbar.so.7
[gdesklet-SlideShow]
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[gdesklets-citation]
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gdesklets
[gedit-valencia]
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[ghc-hjsmin]
ghc-hjsmin-0.1.4.7-3.fc22.i686 requires 
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[glances]
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[gofer]
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[iwhd]
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[kdegraphics]
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[kmid2]
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[leiningen]
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[libopensync-plugin-irmc]
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[perl-MooseX-Declare]
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perl-MooseX-Declare-0.40-1.fc22.noarch requires 
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perl-MooseX-Declare-0.40-1.fc22.noarch requires 
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[pootle]
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[python-askbot-fedmsg]
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[python-coffin]
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[python-django-addons]
python-django-addons-0.6.6-2.fc21.noarch requires python-django14
[python-django-longerusername]
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requires python-django14
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libcsound.so.5.2
[transifex]
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[uwsgi]
   

Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Nikos Roussos]

On 11/17/2014 11:47 AM, Mathieu Bridon wrote:
> On Mon, 2014-11-17 at 11:37 +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
>> I don't consider my IP address a call to home. [...] Even Gnome checks my
>> IP's location to fix my timezone.
> 
> Not by default, you have to enable this explicitly.

True, as you also have to explicitly click a tile to send data to
Mozilla. But the main point here was that your IP (the only thing
Firefox gets before you click anything) is not sensitive data.

>>> Second, a user can easily accidentally click on ad, since it is mixed
>>> among other tiles, with the user's browsing habits. 
>>
>> And a user may accidentally start searching on the Google search box
>> before she realizes that she sends data to Google "as she types" (that's
>> how you get recommendations).
> 
> Indeed, this is in Firefox though, which is the application people are
> saying they'd like to change, so it stops doing that without explicit
> user opt-in.

No. We are talking about the tiles. I didn't see anyone suggesting we
remove Google search. It's like the tiles feature crossed a line, which
is far from truth.

>> Again, this thing we discuss is already happening on Gnome Shell. Type
>> "twitter" on your Gnome's search box.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that no network query is done when you search for
> that, and that instead GNOME Software searches in its local metadata
> cache.

I'm talking about the "advertisement" part. Some people seem to be
bothered by this alone. Tiles feature indeed promotes some websites, but
we already do that.

> All examples you have given of such opt-out network calls are either in
> Firefox or incorrect.
> 
> So maybe there is a need to change something in the Firefox default
> configuration after all? :)

I'm not much in favor of that, since that's the way this open source
project gets revenues, but that could be indeed a first step. And I
don't think we'll have any problems with the branding. But changing
default browser is a totally different discussion.






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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Mathieu Bridon]

On Mon, 2014-11-17 at 11:37 +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> I don't consider my IP address a call to home. [...] Even Gnome checks my
> IP's location to fix my timezone.

Not by default, you have to enable this explicitly.

> > Second, a user can easily accidentally click on ad, since it is mixed
> > among other tiles, with the user's browsing habits. 
> 
> And a user may accidentally start searching on the Google search box
> before she realizes that she sends data to Google "as she types" (that's
> how you get recommendations).

Indeed, this is in Firefox though, which is the application people are
saying they'd like to change, so it stops doing that without explicit
user opt-in.

> Again, this thing we discuss is already happening on Gnome Shell. Type
> "twitter" on your Gnome's search box.

I'm pretty confident that no network query is done when you search for
that, and that instead GNOME Software searches in its local metadata
cache.

Nothing outside of your own computer knows that you searched for
"twitter" in the GNOME search box.

> And I don't think there is a way
> currently to disable this. So please get your facts straight before
> start suggesting we change default browser.

All examples you have given of such opt-out network calls are either in
Firefox or incorrect.

So maybe there is a need to change something in the Firefox default
configuration after all? :)


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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Nikos Roussos]

> > This doesn't seem relevant to this discussion, unless Fedora browsers
> > are automatically, and without the user's explicit knowledge or
> > permission, navigating to Google's search engine, which (AFAICT) they
> > are not.
> 
> Same happens with these tiles. No data is sent back to Mozilla unless
> you *choose* to click one of the promoted tiles.
> 
> 
> 
> First, that's not quite true. Firefox does a call home first, where
> Mozilla will then determine your location from your IP (and possibly
> other data presented to them in the future), in order to present you
> with ads. As I understand it, it will do this the first time you open a
> new tab, before you even navigate to any site (such as about:config).

I don't consider my IP address a call to home. Every website you visit
records your IP, so it's hardly sensitive data. Even Gnome checks my
IP's location to fix my timezone.

> Second, a user can easily accidentally click on ad, since it is mixed
> among other tiles, with the user's browsing habits. 

And a user may accidentally start searching on the Google search box
before she realizes that she sends data to Google "as she types" (that's
how you get recommendations).

Again, this thing we discuss is already happening on Gnome Shell. Type
"twitter" on your Gnome's search box. And I don't think there is a way
currently to disable this. So please get your facts straight before
start suggesting we change default browser.



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Re: Mozilla enabled ads in Firefox and they're active in Fedora

[Florian Weimer]

On 11/16/2014 06:31 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On 11/15/2014 11:41 PM, Johannes Lips wrote:


I don't really understand the issue at all.



We have a "no-phone-home" and "no-spy" policy in Fedora.


I don't think we do.

Anaconda, for example, phones home even before you select the 
installation media.


Perhaps more significantly, at least in my tests, the Firefox URL 
classifier reports some kind of data about matches (which reflect user 
browsing behavior) to Google, along with long-term Google tracking 
cookies.  This is not readily apparent from the browser source code, and 
the data exchanged with Google has been obfuscated to make independent 
review difficult.


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