Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:59 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sat, 2020-11-21 at 12:01 +0100, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 20.11.2020 19:52, Radka Gustavsson wrote: > > > Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that > > > doesn't have a peer out there. > > > > 1. Proprietary software. The open source community should not use > > proprietary software as the official chat source. > > No-one suggested using it as the official chat source. > > > 2. Discord has the worst ToS[1] I've ever seen. > > 3. They don't have a public API and third party clients are prohibited. > > This is true, but doesn't really relate to the reasons discord was > mentioned in the first place. > What Adam said. I strongly suggest reading the context of my original message Vitaly. > -- > Adam Williamson > Fedora QA > IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha > http://www.happyassassin.net > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:56 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:27:08AM +0100, Marius Schwarz wrote: > > Am 19.11.20 um 21:13 schrieb José Abílio Matos: > > > > > > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 5:54:52 PM WET Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not sure that message editing is a feature. > > > > > > > > > In fairness as long as the grace period is fixed and small that is not > a > > > bad thing. > > > > > > E.g it allows you to fix lots of cases where you found that the message > > > was incomplete after sending it or it had incorrect information that > you > > > only found after sending it. > > > > > > > > > That allows to clean some noise and it is not a bad thing. :-) > > > > Just imagine to fix a typo in a cmd you gave as advise.. it's very > usefull. > > Sure, but also imagine: > > usera: "Hey everyone, say yea, Fedora is great!" > userb: "yea!" > userc: "yea!" > usera "Say yea if you love osx!" > > IMHO editing is fine, as long as it notes it was edited and provides you > a way to see what was changed. I have no idea how the matrix editing > works however. > That's what moderators are for who can see edits. But even then, in so many years on Discord, never had that problem in any of the many and large communities that I manage. Users know that they get in trouble if they try to do such things. > > kevin > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 6:03 PM John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:17:15 AM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > The move to having our own Matrix server is being driven by Fedora > > subcommunities already wanting to move primacy from IRC to Matrix. > > Many of our adjunct upstreams have done so (Mozilla, KDE, etc.) or are > > in the process of doing so (GNOME, openSUSE, etc.). > > > > The intent isn't to drop IRC as a gateway to these communities, and > > indeed the Freenode IRC channels would remain bridged to the Fedora > > Matrix server. > > > > To be blunt, we're struggling to get new folks to come talk to us on > > IRC. > > Has this been documented anywhere? If so, we can likely review these > issues, > and see what would need to be done to solve this problem, if there is one. > > > Our largest user community is on Discord today, which eclipses > > *everything* else by a wide margin. > > It's worth questioning whether those folks are actually Fedora uses, or > people > who are just a bit interested in Fedora. Given that the use of proprietary > software, where a superior Free alternative exists, is against the Four > Foundations, it's questionable that they'd be Discord users. > I manage the place we're talking about so I can tell you all about it. Many open source lovers use Discord. Quite a few became Fedora contributors through our Discord community as well. Perhaps you shouldn't judge without ever participating. People aren't automatically bad or whatever just because they don't mind using proprietary software when its benefits far outweigh the downsides and when it enables them to work at their peak efficiency. Discord is in fact an amazing chat platform for the end user that doesn't have a peer out there. (I could talk for hours about its flaws, but the end user won't notice or realise most of them.) You're extremely wrong in saying that there is a "superior" libre alternative. There isn't, nowhere near. If there was, it would have been popular and not Discord. Those masses chose it for its features and ease of use. It allows people to do whatever they want and doesn't disable anyone, regardless how "out there" their requirements may be. Our Discord community is not "against the Four Foundations" like you say. It definitely hits 3/4 - Features Friends and First, and by proxy, by enabling people to reach Fedora contributors easier, it also enables the FREE in the end, by further contribution from the members. I could easily turn your logic against IRC - it's definitely not First to introduce new Features and because of it, it doesn't bring Friends together anymore. All it's got really going for it is the FREE. > > > Next up is Telegram, which we have > > been using somewhat for years through influence by the Russian Fedora > > community who brought it to us in the first place. Neither of these > > platforms are FOSS, and we want to provide a rich real-time > > communications platform that is FOSS and open in many of the same ways > > that IRC is. Matrix is open, federated, and gaining share in the > > marketplace, making it a solid replacement for IRC. And unlike > > alternatives, maintaining links to historical IRC channels with Matrix > > rooms is easy and straightforward. > > > > We want to be approachable, and we want to be appealing. Right now, > > our usage of IRC hurts us. > > If Matrix bridges so well with IRC, and many upstream communities are > using it > already, surely they could just join our channels through their bridges? > > -- > John M. Harris, Jr. > Splentity > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: video meeting to discuss Matrix/Element and IRC
On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:11 PM Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:22:26PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > [I posted to the Fedora Council list, but reposting here for wider > > distribution.] > > > > As mentioned, we're looking at moving the Fedora Council's main chat to > > Matrix. And as part of that, we're considering a hosted Element server -- > > which obviously could go quite beyond just #fedora-council. Neal > suggested a > > video meeting to talk with interested people about this, and so I set up > > this when-is-good > > > >http://whenisgood.net/k5brwbd > > > > Anyone interested in a preliminary chat about all of this, please sign up > > with your FAS id and availability. Nothing is sent in stone or decided > > already, although I must say I'm pretty excited about Element's open > source > > software-as-a-service offering based on what I've heard from them so far. > > There's quite a lot wrong here - a video meeting(!) to discuss > dropping a commonly used and well established channel of > communication. Well, I guess at least you didn't decide to use the > proprietary awfulness of Slack. > Rich, IRC is not being dropped, it is being bridged to modern, "IRC-native" (for lack of better word in my vocabulary) platform. Contributors who prefer to stay on IRC are welcome to do so and won't really notice any difference. > > Couldn't you just talk about this on email? > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-real-time-chat-discussion-for-the-fedora-council/24628 > > Let me start off: > > What's the reason why hosting your own server for a fairly uncommon > chat protocol is better than continuing to use IRC? > I too love dinosaurs... but I also work on 4 different computers and two mobile devices every day. Having to literally switch hardware to participate in IRC meetings is pain in the ass for some of our contributors (myself included.) > > Rich. > > -- > Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat > http://people.redhat.com/~rjones > Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com > virt-builder quickly builds VMs from scratch > http://libguestfs.org/virt-builder.1.html > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
