Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
Hi all, Thank you very much for your responses. I criticized just the abscence of mail to prevent ambassadors for the creation of WG. I understand your position. You're right. I overestimate the place of ambassador in the developpement production. Please forgive me about this big mistake. Alexandre. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Mon, 2013-10-28 at 10:01 +0100, Nobrakal wrote: Hi all, Thank you very much for your responses. I criticized just the abscence of mail to prevent ambassadors for the creation of WG. As a French native speaker, I know what you meant here, but prevent means empêcher, not prévenir ;) For others, Alexandre meant: ... the absence of mail to **let ambassadors know** about... Hopefully nobody got confused. :) -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On 10/27/2013 11:34 AM, Nobrakal wrote: 2013/10/27, Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com: On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 19:05:37 +0800 Christopher Mengcicku...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that most of members from the new formed groups are working for Red Hat. Well it's helpful to strengthen our technical base but are there any plots for other people? Well, if I believe this ticket [1]: Each working group should be comprised of no more than half (rounded up) of Red Hat employees. This is to avoid the misconception that Red Hat is dictating the planning here. That a good rule. That rule did not get approved by fesco quite the opposite + FESCO members they themselves where supposed to be the ones that selected initial members for the WG but they did not do so for all groups as in the Workstation WG initial selection was conducted by Josh Boyer ( former FESCO member,board kernel and what not everybody should know him ) as well as the Base WG was selected by Phil Knirsch, which is entirely unassociated with fesco afaik but is (co)-maintaining bunch of obsoleted stuff there in the base/core OS. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
2013/10/28 Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com On 10/27/2013 11:34 AM, Nobrakal wrote: 2013/10/27, Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com: On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 19:05:37 +0800 Christopher Mengcicku...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that most of members from the new formed groups are working for Red Hat. Well it's helpful to strengthen our technical base but are there any plots for other people? Well, if I believe this ticket [1]: Each working group should be comprised of no more than half (rounded up) of Red Hat employees. This is to avoid the misconception that Red Hat is dictating the planning here. That a good rule. That rule did not get approved by fesco quite the opposite + FESCO members they themselves where supposed to be the ones that selected initial members for the WG but they did not do so for all groups as in the Workstation WG initial selection was conducted by Josh Boyer ( former FESCO member,board kernel and what not everybody should know him ) as well as the Base WG was selected by Phil Knirsch, which is entirely unassociated with fesco afaik but is (co)-maintaining bunch of obsoleted stuff there in the base/core OS. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/develhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-**of-conducthttp://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
Hi, Fesco is entitled to delegate their authority to anyone they see fit to do so. For instance, FPC members are designated by Fesco and rule packaging guidelines. Besides, the final decision was taken by Fesco. H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On 10/27/2013 09:45 AM, Alexandre Moine wrote: Recently, some Working Groups has been created [1]. In the most of case (except in the Server WG with Truong Anh. Tuan), we don't have any representant of the ambassador group. Actually the server WG has two ambasssadors ( I myself am also ambassador ) as well as atleast the Workstation WG with Christoph Wickert but there was no rule in place how the initial selection process should be conducted other then it should be conducted by FESCO members*. *Stephen decided to use role based selection process to form his initial WG, some chose to follow his process other not. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10/27/2013 07:34 AM, Nobrakal wrote: 2013/10/27, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com: On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 19:05:37 +0800 Christopher Meng cicku...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that most of members from the new formed groups are working for Red Hat. Well it's helpful to strengthen our technical base but are there any plots for other people? Well, if I believe this ticket [1]: Each working group should be comprised of no more than half (rounded up) of Red Hat employees. This is to avoid the misconception that Red Hat is dictating the planning here. That a good rule. I suggested that (and in the Server WG I tried to meet it), but the simple truth was that this was impossible for most of the WGs because there were fewer than four non-Red Hat self-nominees. I do think that the other FESCo coordinators attempted to balance the Red Hat and non-Red Hat voices as best as possible. Certainly, the nominees are not the only people that can participate in this process. As I stated for the Server WG, the voting members are only there to rule on final decisions and resolve disputes. If they are the only ones working towards these goals, we've failed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlJuULcACgkQeiVVYja6o6NltACggJ51skJh7WES1kPBGEirl9Ky Yq0Anix7uwpsscd5ofhNfBOsVTuUp9Ye =xneg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 10:45:02AM +0100, Alexandre Moine wrote: I think it's a great idea to strengthens the links between ambassadors and WG. The ambassador is an important link between users and developpers, on my mind, he must be in these groups. We've tried to include as broad a section of volunteers as possible while still keeping the voting groups small enough to be functional. I want to stress as strongly as possible that participation isn't limited to initial WG members. If there are ambassadors that are interested in working directly with each of the WGs, that would be excellent. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/27/2013 09:45 AM, Alexandre Moine wrote: Recently, some Working Groups has been created [1]. In the most of case (except in the Server WG with Truong Anh. Tuan), we don't have any representant of the ambassador group. Actually the server WG has two ambasssadors ( I myself am also ambassador ) as well as atleast the Workstation WG with Christoph Wickert but there was no rule in place how the initial selection process should be conducted other then it should be conducted by FESCO members. Not entirely accurate. The WG coordinators had to select the initial voting members from those that were nominated for the WG during the nomination period. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
Hi all, Sorry for the double-post, but I think it's necessary. Recently, some Working Groups has been created [1]. In the most of case (except in the Server WG with Truong Anh. Tuan), we don't have any representant of the ambassador group. I exaggerate, because some developers are ambassadors (like C. Wickert, H. Guémar...), but they are in these groups primary for their skills in programming. I don't say they are bad ambassadors, but I think developper task + ambassador reprensentant task are too much for one person. I think it's a great idea to strengthens the links between ambassadors and WG. The ambassador is an important link between users and developpers, on my mind, he must be in these groups. Alexandre, Fedora User and Ambassador Ps: For more information, see the Working Group Nominations part in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora.nexthttps://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Ffedoraproject.org%2Fwiki%2FFedora.nextsa=Dsntz=1usg=AFQjCNF70FWDOFWahZiDLLwO2Wu77lBZ5g [1]: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-October/190732.htmlhttps://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Flists.fedoraproject.org%2Fpipermail%2Fdevel%2F2013-October%2F190732.htmlsa=Dsntz=1usg=AFQjCNGPbVvna9V4r7u_2zVUbfJY0Wue0A -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
Hi, Thanks for your concern on that topic, off course, fedora.next would be an half-assed initiative if we forget communication and community mgmt. And i'm pretty sure that everyone here agrees with you on that point. As for myself, I also intend to represent users inside the Cloud WG, so i'll be glad to serve as a liaison officer with both Ambassadors and Marketing groups. I can't speak on the behalf of cwickert, but as one of the most supportive member of the Ambassadors group, I'm confident that he'll do an outstanding job -as usual- on that matter best regards, H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
2013/10/27, H. Guémar hgue...@fedoraproject.org: Hi, Thanks for your concern on that topic, off course, fedora.next would be an half-assed initiative if we forget communication and community mgmt. And i'm pretty sure that everyone here agrees with you on that point. As for myself, I also intend to represent users inside the Cloud WG, so Yes, that the most important point, represent user. i'll be glad to serve as a liaison officer with both Ambassadors and Marketing groups. I can't speak on the behalf of cwickert, but as one of the most supportive member of the Ambassadors group, I'm confident that he'll do an outstanding job -as usual- on that matter I have no doubt about cwickert and you, that sure! But, neither email was sent on the ambassador mailing list, so, this mail is more a reminder to not forget communication and community management (I like your expression :) ). @frankly3d: Why does the user need a middleman, who in this instance is a distraction. from his (user) talk of code to a dev also code. Users don't need a middle man, yes. But, during the event, some people talk to you about problem, or others things in the project. Ambassadors is just a link. As hguemar has said, we musn't forget communicaton people best regards, H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
It seems that most of members from the new formed groups are working for Red Hat. Well it's helpful to strengthen our technical base but are there any plots for other people? Thanks. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
Hi, I think that coordinators and Fesco tried to integrate as much as possible community members. But truth is that most people who self-nominated were RH employees, so i'd rather say that RH employees even had an handicap. As for the Cloud WG -i can't speak for other WG-, we wish that non-voting members are integrated as much as possible in defining the future of Fedora in the clouds. We can't do everything and we don't intend to close the door to anyone. Remember that we're just kickstarting a major overhaul on how we think and build Fedora, these WG are only there to lead the definition of our products in the open and keep the process focused. Either i would have been appointed into the Cloud WG or not, i would have participated anyway in that effort. H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
2013/10/27, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com: On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 19:05:37 +0800 Christopher Meng cicku...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that most of members from the new formed groups are working for Red Hat. Well it's helpful to strengthen our technical base but are there any plots for other people? Well, if I believe this ticket [1]: Each working group should be comprised of no more than half (rounded up) of Red Hat employees. This is to avoid the misconception that Red Hat is dictating the planning here. That a good rule. Thanks. The working groups are about code, how it interacts with other code. Then marketing will be needed to spread what has been accepted to the world. What other need do you see? In my mind, Ambassadors are more near of users than developers or marketing team. Ambassadors organize all the events, submit new idea... It is really important to have at least an ambassador in WG Alexandre -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 12:34:01 +0100 Nobrakal nobra...@gmail.com wrote: In my mind, Ambassadors are more near of users than developers or marketing team. Ambassadors organize all the events, submit new idea... It is really important to have at least an ambassador in WG Alexandre It is also important to have them in freemedia, don't see that happening, too often. -- Regards, Frank www.frankly3d.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
2013/10/27, Ankur Sinha sanjay.an...@gmail.com: On Sun, 2013-10-27 at 12:27 +0100, Nobrakal wrote: In my mind, Ambassadors are more near of users than developers or marketing team. Ambassadors organize all the events, submit new idea... It is really important to have at least an ambassador in WG I don't think Amabssdors must be part of the WGs, unless they also have a skill set relevant to the WG. For example, Tuan isn't just an ambassador. He works with servers and therefore brings certain knowledge that will be useful to the WG. That great, for Tuan and Cwickert. But my problem is that neither email was sent on the ambassadors list. And, as you say, they are ambassadors additional. We need real representant of Ambassadors (I don't say Tuan ans Cwickert are bad ambassadors) Elected members of the WG are ones who will *lead* them. Ambassadors are more than welcome to keep tabs on these working groups and provide them with feedback when required, like the rest of the community. Yes, but we need a mentor for this ambassador, to coordinate their action in the WG. Ambassadors generally jump into action in the last stage of a release: when it's ready, and we need to spread information about it. We don't do much during rest of the release cycle, with tasks that *create* a release. As I understand it, this is the order of information flow: Development/WGs (Develop) - Marketing/Docs team (Keep tabs + create collateral: flyers etc.) - Ambassadors + and the community, in general (Spread the word) - rest of the world. It's for the first release. After, for your product, you need feedback, and other suggestion, to best help them. The user is the center of all contributors. So, your order become Development/WGs (Develop) - Marketing/Docs team (Keep tabs + create collateral: flyers etc.) - Ambassadors + and the community, in general (Spread the word) - rest of the world. - User - Development/WGs (Develop) This last step require ambassadors. It's similar to what we have now, which is why I keep requesting folks that aren't developers to help out with marketing/docs, or at least to keep tabs on their tasks. That very good. This is why you need ambassadors, for all steps in the developpement. Users don't create software. They use it. That the most important thing ! Softwares are make to users. If you exclude user of your process, it's a big mistake Most users don't know or care at all about how software is created. In most cases, users are only involved during the first phase of software development, when requirements are being collected. The WGs already have their requirements figured out. You forget the post-production. After a software, user have some other idea of improvement. For example, what would you as a user contribute to the server (or another) working group? For example, I'm a user. I want php on my server, but it isn't in the server group on yum. I can tell developpers to add php in their group. 2013/10/27, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com: On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 12:34:01 +0100 Nobrakal nobra...@gmail.com wrote: Then why do Ambassadors not reply to emails even from other Ambassadors, the perception I have been given is that Ambassadors should not be disturbed. Ankur (FranciscoD), could fill you in more on this *do not contact aspect of *some* Ambassadors. If some ambassadors do not their jobs, it's another problem. I speak about the 'normal' ambassadors. It is also important to have them in freemedia, don't see that happening, too often. Yes, you're right, but it's another problem. But, now, freemedia isn't longer required. Live usb is very useful, on my mind. Alexandre -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Sun, 2013-10-27 at 14:46 +0100, Nobrakal wrote: 2013/10/27, Ankur Sinha sanjay.an...@gmail.com: On Sun, 2013-10-27 at 12:27 +0100, Nobrakal wrote: In my mind, Ambassadors are more near of users than developers or marketing team. Ambassadors organize all the events, submit new idea... It is really important to have at least an ambassador in WG I don't think Amabssdors must be part of the WGs, unless they also have a skill set relevant to the WG. For example, Tuan isn't just an ambassador. He works with servers and therefore brings certain knowledge that will be useful to the WG. That great, for Tuan and Cwickert. But my problem is that neither email was sent on the ambassadors list. Honestly, if you don't follow up the other lists, then I can't understand how you can do a good job of representing Fedora. And really, the working groups are about **making** Fedora. Ambassadors are about **promoting** it. If you want to be part of those who make Fedora, then you're not just an ambassador any more, you become one of the developers. (and then you really should follow the lists where this was announced) -- Mathieu -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors places in new Working Groups
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Nobrakal nobra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Sorry for the double-post, but I think it's necessary. Recently, some Working Groups has been created [1]. In the most of case (except in the Server WG with Truong Anh. Tuan), we don't have any representant of the ambassador group. As others have pointed out we do have ambassadors in at least almost every group and it is really important to understand these announcements are only regarding the initial voting membership of the groups. Everyone is encouraged and welcome to participate and they will be listened to during any discussions. Not being a voting member of the group does not mean your input to the process is any less valuable to it succeeding. It really isn't any different than only FAmSCo members getting to vote during FAmSCo meetings. You can still attend FAmSCo meetings and give your input on any issues. It is up to you to participate though. John -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
