Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-05 Thread Petr Pisar 
V Mon, Jun 05, 2023 at 03:27:58PM +0200, Michal Schorm napsal(a):
> Thought:
> (disclaimer: I don't know much about networking)
> IPv4 addresses are in some cases 'human readable' / 'human usable' /
> 'human friendly'.
> 
> How can one set up a temporary network of several devices for a LAN
> party or any similar connecting application use cases?
> From my own experience, the vast majority of people have no idea that
> when one tells you "write in: ten zero zero eight", they have to put
> dots in between. Because they have no idea what IP address is and how
> it's formatted.
> 
> I can't imagine I would say this out loud to even a tech experienced
> person and they would get it right the first time.
> 1a01:4204:b07d:af00:21c6:542a:611:73ea
> 
> Not mentioning all the times I need to connect devices in many rooms
> across several floors in the whole building.
> 
> Is there any easy way to keep exchanging the IP address 'human usable' ?
> 
It is. And it works exactly the same way as in IPv4. You pick a well-known
prefix and then append a simple number. Should I continue your example with
LAN, then the prefix is fe80::/64. E.g. fe80::1, fe80::2 etc. are valid
addresses.

(The fe80::/64 prefix has some theoretical constraints on some higher bits in
the address, but I guess nobody invites more than 2^24 people on a party, so
you don't have to be concerned. There are also practical constraints, like
this prefix is not routable and if you have more network interfaces, you would
have to follow it with a network interface identifier in your applications.)

-- Petr


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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-05 Thread Petr Menšík 
The easy way is definitely pushing both IPv6 and IPv4 addresses of any 
service into DNS. Use at least mdns (which is not resolving also IPv6 in 
our default configuration sadly), which converts names to ipaddress  and 
back. That in my opinion is the target. To use human friendly names, not 
IP addresses. Sure, IPv4 are shorter and easier to type in or even 
spell. But we need the address bits, there is no workaround. IP 
addresses are not user-friendly way.


Dnsmasq for example creates name<->IP address mapping for every machine 
asking DHCP from it. That is the way to go. Name your machine and 
reference it by name from others. Avahi is a good alternative for 
locating your device, even when network does not do mapping to it. If 
some device does not insert names automatically (hello Mikrotik!), ask 
their vendor to fix that. Usage of IP addresses should be reduced to 
strictly necessary minimum. Copy & paste should help with that.


Tomorrow is IPv6 Seminar at Prague [3], I am going to attend that. I 
have still many questions, I am not really IPv6 guru (yet?).


On 05. 06. 23 15:27, Michal Schorm wrote:

Thought:
(disclaimer: I don't know much about networking)
IPv4 addresses are in some cases 'human readable' / 'human usable' /
'human friendly'.

How can one set up a temporary network of several devices for a LAN
party or any similar connecting application use cases?
 From my own experience, the vast majority of people have no idea that
when one tells you "write in: ten zero zero eight", they have to put
dots in between. Because they have no idea what IP address is and how
it's formatted.

I can't imagine I would say this out loud to even a tech experienced
person and they would get it right the first time.
1a01:4204:b07d:af00:21c6:542a:611:73ea


For real addresses which users actually has to type it is usually better.

dns.google: 2001:4860:4860::8844

dns9.quad9.net: 2620:fe::9



Not mentioning all the times I need to connect devices in many rooms
across several floors in the whole building.

Is there any easy way to keep exchanging the IP address 'human usable' ?


No. But we have DNS there for decades to make them human usable. We just 
need to use it everytime we can. Autoconfigure it when possible. What I 
am not sure is how should SLAAC allocated addresses be paired with a 
name provided by the network, into which they are connected to. It is 
supported with DHCP(v6), but I don't know a good way for router 
advertisements. A question for experts!


Though domain name services is the area I am expert in already. If there 
is integration missing in some area, fill a bug! Even to me.



--

Michal Schorm
Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat

--

On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 10:51 PM Petr Menšík  wrote:

Hello everyone,

I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting
presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not
something I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6
readiness with some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack
IPv4 and IPv6 networks just fine. But the presentation were about future
case where we run most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older
devices to take and use also IPv4 address.

Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which
took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk
about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about
how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me
we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.

What do you think about it?

[1] https://indico.csnog.eu/event/13/contributions/121/
[2] https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/923/

3. https://www.cesnet.cz/akce/seminar-ipv6-2023/

--
Petr Menšík
Software Engineer, RHEL
Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com/
PGP: DFCF908DB7C87E8E529925BC4931CA5B6C9FC5CB
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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-05 Thread Chris Adams 
Once upon a time, Michal Schorm  said:
> How can one set up a temporary network of several devices for a LAN
> party or any similar connecting application use cases?
> From my own experience, the vast majority of people have no idea that
> when one tells you "write in: ten zero zero eight", they have to put
> dots in between. Because they have no idea what IP address is and how
> it's formatted.
> 
> I can't imagine I would say this out loud to even a tech experienced
> person and they would get it right the first time.
> 1a01:4204:b07d:af00:21c6:542a:611:73ea
> 
> Not mentioning all the times I need to connect devices in many rooms
> across several floors in the whole building.
> 
> Is there any easy way to keep exchanging the IP address 'human usable' ?

There are some ways, but really, for those uses, just have a router
handling it, just like setting up DHCP for IPv4 is much easier than
having everybody type IPs (and then making sure there are no IP
conflicts and such).  Even if you don't have Internet connectivity, you
can set up what's known as a ULA prefix (IIRC OpenWRT chooses a random
ULA prefix by default).  That plus SLAAC and/or DHCPv6 means people plug
in and it "just works".

And from there, things like Zerconf/Avahi allow you to find other
systems on the local LAN without having to type IPs.  Unless you are a
network person, the majority of the time now you shouldn't have to care
about IP addresses (v4 or v6).

But... since v6 addresses are hex, that does give a little more room for
manually assigning "creative" addresses... you'll see a number of things
that have an address that includes :dead:beef: for example. :)

Also, for people who like to use public DNS resolvers (you shouldn't)
like Google's 8.8.8.8, the shortest addresses on the Internet are 2a09::
and 2a11:: (shorter than any possible v4 address).
-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-05 Thread Michal Schorm 
Thought:
(disclaimer: I don't know much about networking)
IPv4 addresses are in some cases 'human readable' / 'human usable' /
'human friendly'.

How can one set up a temporary network of several devices for a LAN
party or any similar connecting application use cases?
From my own experience, the vast majority of people have no idea that
when one tells you "write in: ten zero zero eight", they have to put
dots in between. Because they have no idea what IP address is and how
it's formatted.

I can't imagine I would say this out loud to even a tech experienced
person and they would get it right the first time.
1a01:4204:b07d:af00:21c6:542a:611:73ea

Not mentioning all the times I need to connect devices in many rooms
across several floors in the whole building.

Is there any easy way to keep exchanging the IP address 'human usable' ?

--

Michal Schorm
Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat

--

On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 10:51 PM Petr Menšík  wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting
> presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not
> something I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6
> readiness with some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack
> IPv4 and IPv6 networks just fine. But the presentation were about future
> case where we run most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older
> devices to take and use also IPv4 address.
>
> Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which
> took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk
> about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about
> how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me
> we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.
>
> What do you think about it?
>
> [1] https://indico.csnog.eu/event/13/contributions/121/
> [2] https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/923/
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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-05 Thread Petr Menšík 
FYI, I have created tracker bug ipv6-mostly [1], which links bugs in 
different components to make that possible.


More below

On 01. 06. 23 21:05, Björn Persson wrote:

Petr Menšík wrote:

...
Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which
took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk
about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about
how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me
we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.

Having watched the latter presentation, I understand that the idea is
that, on a network with a limited pool of globally routable IPv4
addresses, IPv6-capable clients should use only IPv6 and refrain from
requesting IPv4 addresses, so that addresses will be available to
legacy devices that need IPv4.

It seems to me that it would be very difficult for a DHCP client
program to know whether the Fedora installation it's running on needs
an IPv4 address. I think it would have to be manually configured.


I think this is not expected from any clients. Of course we as a Fedora 
vendor cannot know how the user will use it. I do not have native IPv6 
connectivity myself. The presentation explains that it should keep the 
IPv4 connectivity by using CLAT. How I understood that it would mean NM 
would configure just IPv6 address on the interface, but should configure 
also x464clat interface automatically for you. It would make your 
machine to have IPv4 address on nat64 device, which would have also IPv4 
default route directed to it. So ping 8.8.8.8 should work out of the 
box, but your wifi or eth interface wouldn't have it assigned. Even in 
case you request a tool to use just IPv4, it should work. Like curl -4 
http://example.org or even curl http://93.184.216.34/.


We have already clatd package, but the ability to autoconfigure it is 
missing. Current NM does not even parse information what DNS64 prefixes 
are used on this network. That is required to make it autoconfigured IMO.




It's mentioned in the presentation that IPv6 support is required in
Apple's App Store. That's not currently the case in Fedora. In my own
opinion everything should by now assume IPv6 as the norm, and treat
IPv4 as the legacy protocol that must still be supported for
compatibility – but that's not Fedora's policy. The policy is as
follows:

| If an application contains native and stable support for both IPv4 and
| IPv6, and support for IPv6 does not negatively affect IPv4 then both
| MUST be enabled in the Fedora package.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/#_networking_support

That means that IPv4-only programs are still quite welcome in Fedora if
their lack of IPv6 support is an upstream limitation and not introduced
by the packager. Thus the network configuration must expect that the
user might run such a program and might need IPv4 connectivity. The
policy should probably be changed before Fedora begins requesting only
IPv6 addresses by default.


Do we have any IPv4 only packages in Fedora? It would be nice to have 
tracker bug for missing features in upstream packages. I don't know 
about any more popular or used. But especially because such programs 
still exist we need something like this. The solution provides client 
IPv4 connectivity, because it expects private AS112 ranges to be used. 
Maybe it could be used with public IPv4, but I don't think that makes 
any sense.


We should definitely encourage and recommend full IPv6 support. For 
applications not ready this is a way to make them working in most of cases.



Another concern is that the entire IPv6-mostly concept seems to assume
devices that are strictly clients. It doesn't seem like it would work
for anyone who runs any kind of server or peer-to-peer program. The idea
seems to be that IPv6 clients will access IPv4-only servers over NAT64.
Like all address translation, NAT64 is an obstacle to peer-to-peer
communication. If you need to communicate with a peer who is stuck with
an RFC 1918 address behind NAT on an IPv4-only network – a case that is
still far too common – and you're using IPv6 and NAT64, then you and
your peer will both be unable to connect to each other. If globally
routable IPv4 addresses are available on the network where you are,
then you'll want one so that your peer can at least connect to you.
Users of peer-to-peer programs will want to configure their DHCP client
to request an IPv4 address in case that need arises.

Björn Persson


I expect servers should have dual stack if they need to provide IPv4 
services. I admit couldn't test this concept myself, because I do not 
have a network with at least native dual stack. Peer to peer 
connectivity should be possible in the same way as with cascaded IPv4 
routers used today. I expect UDP port punching should work. NAT64 should 
be for a IPv4 server side just another client behind NAT. Most of 
machines today do not require that. For relevan

Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-06-01 Thread Björn Persson 
Petr Menšík wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting 
> presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not 
> something I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6 
> readiness with some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack 
> IPv4 and IPv6 networks just fine. But the presentation were about future 
> case where we run most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older 
> devices to take and use also IPv4 address.
> 
> Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which 
> took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk 
> about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about 
> how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me 
> we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.

Having watched the latter presentation, I understand that the idea is
that, on a network with a limited pool of globally routable IPv4
addresses, IPv6-capable clients should use only IPv6 and refrain from
requesting IPv4 addresses, so that addresses will be available to
legacy devices that need IPv4.

It seems to me that it would be very difficult for a DHCP client
program to know whether the Fedora installation it's running on needs
an IPv4 address. I think it would have to be manually configured.

It's mentioned in the presentation that IPv6 support is required in
Apple's App Store. That's not currently the case in Fedora. In my own
opinion everything should by now assume IPv6 as the norm, and treat
IPv4 as the legacy protocol that must still be supported for
compatibility – but that's not Fedora's policy. The policy is as
follows:

| If an application contains native and stable support for both IPv4 and
| IPv6, and support for IPv6 does not negatively affect IPv4 then both
| MUST be enabled in the Fedora package.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/#_networking_support

That means that IPv4-only programs are still quite welcome in Fedora if
their lack of IPv6 support is an upstream limitation and not introduced
by the packager. Thus the network configuration must expect that the
user might run such a program and might need IPv4 connectivity. The
policy should probably be changed before Fedora begins requesting only
IPv6 addresses by default.

Another concern is that the entire IPv6-mostly concept seems to assume
devices that are strictly clients. It doesn't seem like it would work
for anyone who runs any kind of server or peer-to-peer program. The idea
seems to be that IPv6 clients will access IPv4-only servers over NAT64.
Like all address translation, NAT64 is an obstacle to peer-to-peer
communication. If you need to communicate with a peer who is stuck with
an RFC 1918 address behind NAT on an IPv4-only network – a case that is
still far too common – and you're using IPv6 and NAT64, then you and
your peer will both be unable to connect to each other. If globally
routable IPv4 addresses are available on the network where you are,
then you'll want one so that your peer can at least connect to you.
Users of peer-to-peer programs will want to configure their DHCP client
to request an IPv4 address in case that need arises.

Björn Persson


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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-05-30 Thread Petr Pisar 
V Thu, May 25, 2023 at 10:51:26PM +0200, Petr Menšík napsal(a):
> I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting
> presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not something
> I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6 readiness with
> some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack IPv4 and IPv6
> networks just fine. But the presentation were about future case where we run
> most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older devices to take and
> use also IPv4 address.
> 
> Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which took
> the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk about
> Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about how any
> linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me we should
> improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.
> 
> What do you think about it?
> 
> [1] https://indico.csnog.eu/event/13/contributions/121/
> [2] https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/923/
>
The presentation was about CLAT (RFC 6877) implementations on end hosts.
Fedora already delivers clatd package
. Though
I have no idea whether it works.

-- Petr


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Re: Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-05-30 Thread Peter Robinson 
Hi,

> I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting
> presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not
> something I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6
> readiness with some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack
> IPv4 and IPv6 networks just fine. But the presentation were about future
> case where we run most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older
> devices to take and use also IPv4 address.

I've been running Fedora on dual stack v4/v6 for well over a decade
without issues as my ISP has long supported it.

> Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which
> took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk
> about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about
> how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me
> we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.
>
> What do you think about it?

There was a UK IPv6 Council meeting recently [1] that I was hoping to
attend but had conflicts, thankfully they've also published most of
the slides/videos which are useful and interesting.

Overall I have a bunch of thoughts as IPv6 is of large interest to
IoT/Edge so I have been following it somewhat. Reviewing a bunch of
the slides from that event, some referenced RIPE meetings, it lead me
to file a NetworkManager RFE [2] for RFC-8925 support. I also intend
to investigate setting up a IPv6 only VLAN but a quick look at my
Unifi GW UX didn't make it easy and I'm yet to dig into what's needed
from a cli PoV there :)

Overall I suspect there's some work directly in Fedora around defaults
but quite a bit may well be in upstream projects like NM. Happy to
help where I can.

Peter

[1] https://www.ipv6.org.uk/2023/02/03/enterprise-ipv6-workshop/
[2] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/-/issues/1298

>
> [1] https://indico.csnog.eu/event/13/contributions/121/
> [2] https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/923/
>
> --
> Petr Menšík
> Software Engineer, RHEL
> Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com/
> PGP: DFCF908DB7C87E8E529925BC4931CA5B6C9FC5CB
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Are we ready for ipv6-mostly networks?

2023-05-25 Thread Petr Menšík 

Hello everyone,

I have attended recently csnog.eu conference [1], where some interesting 
presentations took place. They were usually in Czech, so it is not 
something I am going to share more. But what took my interest were ipv6 
readiness with some exceptions. Fedora is ready to be run on dual-stack 
IPv4 and IPv6 networks just fine. But the presentation were about future 
case where we run most hosts on IPv6 network only, but allow some older 
devices to take and use also IPv4 address.


Fortunately there is roughly the same presentation[2] in English, which 
took the place on RIPE 85 meeting. What catched my interest were talk 
about Windows 11 and Apple systems are ready, but not really talk about 
how any linux distribution is ready for such situation. It seems to me 
we should improve the support for mentioned mechanisms in Fedora.


What do you think about it?

[1] https://indico.csnog.eu/event/13/contributions/121/
[2] https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/923/

--
Petr Menšík
Software Engineer, RHEL
Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com/
PGP: DFCF908DB7C87E8E529925BC4931CA5B6C9FC5CB
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