Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:07 PM Jerry James wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:08 PM Antonio M wrote: > > confirmed that running on 5.1.20-300 this issue is not present > > Same here. It does seem to be the 5.2 kernel that triggered this > behavior. I also managed to reproduce it once today without > virt-manager running, so maybe VMs have nothing to do with it. > Interacting with them seems to be the easiest way to trigger the > behavior, though. I also experienced it today, no VM's running, no virt-manager running. Just gnome-shell. I briefly had it consistently disappearing upon pressing the super key (show activities), and then it would reappear upon pressing super again (hide activities). And then I went to a different computer with ssh into the one experiencing the problem, to look at logs, but there were no messages at all in the journal for this time frame (no kernel or shell message or anything at all). And then just as inexplicably, the problem stopped, mouse pointer was visible with activities showing and hidden. -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:08 PM Antonio M wrote: > confirmed that running on 5.1.20-300 this issue is not present Same here. It does seem to be the 5.2 kernel that triggered this behavior. I also managed to reproduce it once today without virt-manager running, so maybe VMs have nothing to do with it. Interacting with them seems to be the easiest way to trigger the behavior, though. -- Jerry James http://www.jamezone.org/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
confirmed that running on 5.1.20-300 this issue is not present Antonio Montagnani Linux Fedora 30 Workstation da/from Gmail Il giorno gio 8 ago 2019 alle ore 21:43 Owen Taylor ha scritto: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:34 PM Antonio M > wrote: > >> I am the reporter of bug >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1738614 >> I have never such an issue before kernels 5..2.x and it is not always >> true that clicking on notation bar solves the issue >> > > Do you think you could try downgrading your system to an older kernel? If > that fixes the issue, that woudl make it clear that it's not some other > package that was coincidentally upgraded at the same time as the kernel. > > Thanks! > Owen > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 2:34 PM Antonio M wrote: > I am the reporter of bug > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1738614 > I have never such an issue before kernels 5..2.x and it is not always true > that clicking on notation bar solves the issue > Do you think you could try downgrading your system to an older kernel? If that fixes the issue, that woudl make it clear that it's not some other package that was coincidentally upgraded at the same time as the kernel. Thanks! Owen ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
I am the reporter of bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1738614 I have never such an issue before kernels 5..2.x and it is not always true that clicking on notation bar solves the issue Antonio Montagnani Linux Fedora 30 Workstation da/from Gmail Il giorno gio 8 ago 2019 alle ore 19:10 Owen Taylor ha scritto: > Recently filed bugs about similar issues: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1738614 > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1739169 > > Not sure if they are the *same* problem or different problems. They > look like the same issue (cursor only visible over application > windows) - but one reporter claims is started with a kernel upgrade, > and the other reporter reports an associated shell backtrace in their > log. And while a kernel upgrade could cause this (some problem with > overlays in the intel driver, perhaps), or the backtrace could > potentially cause this (shell is confused about what is an application > window and what is not), it's unexpected that a kernel upgrade would > cause the backtrace! > > More information about a) whether that backtrace occurs for everybody > who is seeing the problem b) whether it was associated with a kernel > upgrade, and whether downgrading to an older kernel helps would > definitely be useful! > > Owen > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
Recently filed bugs about similar issues: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1738614 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1739169 Not sure if they are the *same* problem or different problems. They look like the same issue (cursor only visible over application windows) - but one reporter claims is started with a kernel upgrade, and the other reporter reports an associated shell backtrace in their log. And while a kernel upgrade could cause this (some problem with overlays in the intel driver, perhaps), or the backtrace could potentially cause this (shell is confused about what is an application window and what is not), it's unexpected that a kernel upgrade would cause the backtrace! More information about a) whether that backtrace occurs for everybody who is seeing the problem b) whether it was associated with a kernel upgrade, and whether downgrading to an older kernel helps would definitely be useful! Owen ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
I'm seeing this with Intel graphics, but not involving virt-manager. My pointer disappears when I open the GNOME 3 notifications dialog, and reappears when I move off it or close it. -- Gwyn Ciesla she/her/hers in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 11:48 PM, Antonio M wrote: > same here, but I am using only Intel graphics. Pointer disappears only out of > application windows, and sometimes it comes backagain > Filed a bug against gnome but not sure of the component. Reported link says > unavailable > Antonio Montagnani > > Linux Fedora 30 Workstation > da/from Gmail > > Il giorno gio 8 ago 2019 alle ore 06:21 Peter Hutterer > ha scritto: > > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 09:55:02AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM Jerry James wrote: > > > > > > > > I use the default GNOME desktop, using Wayland with Intel graphics. I > > > > have a web browser, a terminal, and an editor running on desktop 1. > > > > On desktop 2 (i.e., where Ctrl-Alt-Down takes you) I have virt-manager > > > > running, with open windows for whichever VMs are currently in use. > > > > > > > > Yesterday, I updated my Fedora 30 machine. See the list of updated > > > > packages below. After rebooting into the new kernel, I interacted > > > > with a CentOS 7 VM for maybe 10 minutes. When I moved the mouse > > > > pointer out of the VM window on desktop 2, the pointer vanished. That > > > > is, the mouse pointer is now invisible on desktop 2, except when it is > > > > inside the VM window. If I switch back to desktop 1, the mouse > > > > pointer is visible, unless I move it onto the menu bar at the top of > > > > the screen, where it also vanishes. > > > > > > > > Logging out and then back in restored the mouse pointer, but after > > > > working with the VM for just a few minutes, the mouse pointer > > > > disappeared again, exactly as before. Opening system settings brought > > > > the mouse pointer back, for some reason. > > > > > > Weirdly I'm not seeing this on Fedora 30, I'm only seeing it on > > > Rawhide, and I haven't figured out a pattern because it doesn't always > > > happen. > > > > > > Also I'm only using Rawhide VM's in virt-manager, so I'm not certain > > > the guest matters but that's speculative. Definitely it's related to > > > virt-manager and intel graphics because I'm not using anything other > > > than those two. > > > > > > My Fedora 30 laptop has > > > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation Skylake > > > GT2 [HD Graphics 520] [8086:1916] (rev 07) (prog-if 00 [VGA > > > controller]) > > > > > > My Fedora 31 laptop (with this transient issue) has > > > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation 2nd > > > Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller > > > [8086:0126] (rev 09) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) > > > > > > So it might be a controller specific bug, possibly kernel regression. > > > But I'm not sure what components are responsible for the drawing of > > > the pointer, and how it's negotiated when it transitions a > > > virt-manager guest window, and all the ways that could cause confusion > > > in a way to make the pointer vanish. > > > > maybe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/spice-gtk/issues/83 or related to > > it. > > > > Cheers, > > Peter > > ___ > > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Fedora Code of Conduct: > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > > List Archives: > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
same here, but I am using only Intel graphics. Pointer disappears only out of application windows, and sometimes it comes backagain Filed a bug against gnome but not sure of the component. Reported link says unavailable Antonio Montagnani Linux Fedora 30 Workstation da/from Gmail Il giorno gio 8 ago 2019 alle ore 06:21 Peter Hutterer < peter.hutte...@who-t.net> ha scritto: > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 09:55:02AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM Jerry James wrote: > > > > > > I use the default GNOME desktop, using Wayland with Intel graphics. I > > > have a web browser, a terminal, and an editor running on desktop 1. > > > On desktop 2 (i.e., where Ctrl-Alt-Down takes you) I have virt-manager > > > running, with open windows for whichever VMs are currently in use. > > > > > > Yesterday, I updated my Fedora 30 machine. See the list of updated > > > packages below. After rebooting into the new kernel, I interacted > > > with a CentOS 7 VM for maybe 10 minutes. When I moved the mouse > > > pointer out of the VM window on desktop 2, the pointer vanished. That > > > is, the mouse pointer is now invisible on desktop 2, except when it is > > > inside the VM window. If I switch back to desktop 1, the mouse > > > pointer is visible, unless I move it onto the menu bar at the top of > > > the screen, where it also vanishes. > > > > > > Logging out and then back in restored the mouse pointer, but after > > > working with the VM for just a few minutes, the mouse pointer > > > disappeared again, exactly as before. Opening system settings brought > > > the mouse pointer back, for some reason. > > > > Weirdly I'm not seeing this on Fedora 30, I'm only seeing it on > > Rawhide, and I haven't figured out a pattern because it doesn't always > > happen. > > > > Also I'm only using Rawhide VM's in virt-manager, so I'm not certain > > the guest matters but that's speculative. Definitely it's related to > > virt-manager and intel graphics because I'm not using anything other > > than those two. > > > > My Fedora 30 laptop has > > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation Skylake > > GT2 [HD Graphics 520] [8086:1916] (rev 07) (prog-if 00 [VGA > > controller]) > > > > My Fedora 31 laptop (with this transient issue) has > > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation 2nd > > Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller > > [8086:0126] (rev 09) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) > > > > So it might be a controller specific bug, possibly kernel regression. > > But I'm not sure what components are responsible for the drawing of > > the pointer, and how it's negotiated when it transitions a > > virt-manager guest window, and all the ways that could cause confusion > > in a way to make the pointer vanish. > > maybe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/spice-gtk/issues/83 or related > to > it. > > Cheers, >Peter > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 09:55:02AM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM Jerry James wrote: > > > > I use the default GNOME desktop, using Wayland with Intel graphics. I > > have a web browser, a terminal, and an editor running on desktop 1. > > On desktop 2 (i.e., where Ctrl-Alt-Down takes you) I have virt-manager > > running, with open windows for whichever VMs are currently in use. > > > > Yesterday, I updated my Fedora 30 machine. See the list of updated > > packages below. After rebooting into the new kernel, I interacted > > with a CentOS 7 VM for maybe 10 minutes. When I moved the mouse > > pointer out of the VM window on desktop 2, the pointer vanished. That > > is, the mouse pointer is now invisible on desktop 2, except when it is > > inside the VM window. If I switch back to desktop 1, the mouse > > pointer is visible, unless I move it onto the menu bar at the top of > > the screen, where it also vanishes. > > > > Logging out and then back in restored the mouse pointer, but after > > working with the VM for just a few minutes, the mouse pointer > > disappeared again, exactly as before. Opening system settings brought > > the mouse pointer back, for some reason. > > Weirdly I'm not seeing this on Fedora 30, I'm only seeing it on > Rawhide, and I haven't figured out a pattern because it doesn't always > happen. > > Also I'm only using Rawhide VM's in virt-manager, so I'm not certain > the guest matters but that's speculative. Definitely it's related to > virt-manager and intel graphics because I'm not using anything other > than those two. > > My Fedora 30 laptop has > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation Skylake > GT2 [HD Graphics 520] [8086:1916] (rev 07) (prog-if 00 [VGA > controller]) > > My Fedora 31 laptop (with this transient issue) has > 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation 2nd > Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller > [8086:0126] (rev 09) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) > > So it might be a controller specific bug, possibly kernel regression. > But I'm not sure what components are responsible for the drawing of > the pointer, and how it's negotiated when it transitions a > virt-manager guest window, and all the ways that could cause confusion > in a way to make the pointer vanish. maybe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/spice-gtk/issues/83 or related to it. Cheers, Peter ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Disappearing mouse pointer
On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM Jerry James wrote: > > I use the default GNOME desktop, using Wayland with Intel graphics. I > have a web browser, a terminal, and an editor running on desktop 1. > On desktop 2 (i.e., where Ctrl-Alt-Down takes you) I have virt-manager > running, with open windows for whichever VMs are currently in use. > > Yesterday, I updated my Fedora 30 machine. See the list of updated > packages below. After rebooting into the new kernel, I interacted > with a CentOS 7 VM for maybe 10 minutes. When I moved the mouse > pointer out of the VM window on desktop 2, the pointer vanished. That > is, the mouse pointer is now invisible on desktop 2, except when it is > inside the VM window. If I switch back to desktop 1, the mouse > pointer is visible, unless I move it onto the menu bar at the top of > the screen, where it also vanishes. > > Logging out and then back in restored the mouse pointer, but after > working with the VM for just a few minutes, the mouse pointer > disappeared again, exactly as before. Opening system settings brought > the mouse pointer back, for some reason. Weirdly I'm not seeing this on Fedora 30, I'm only seeing it on Rawhide, and I haven't figured out a pattern because it doesn't always happen. Also I'm only using Rawhide VM's in virt-manager, so I'm not certain the guest matters but that's speculative. Definitely it's related to virt-manager and intel graphics because I'm not using anything other than those two. My Fedora 30 laptop has 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation Skylake GT2 [HD Graphics 520] [8086:1916] (rev 07) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) My Fedora 31 laptop (with this transient issue) has 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation 2nd Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller [8086:0126] (rev 09) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) So it might be a controller specific bug, possibly kernel regression. But I'm not sure what components are responsible for the drawing of the pointer, and how it's negotiated when it transitions a virt-manager guest window, and all the ways that could cause confusion in a way to make the pointer vanish. -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Disappearing mouse pointer
I use the default GNOME desktop, using Wayland with Intel graphics. I have a web browser, a terminal, and an editor running on desktop 1. On desktop 2 (i.e., where Ctrl-Alt-Down takes you) I have virt-manager running, with open windows for whichever VMs are currently in use. Yesterday, I updated my Fedora 30 machine. See the list of updated packages below. After rebooting into the new kernel, I interacted with a CentOS 7 VM for maybe 10 minutes. When I moved the mouse pointer out of the VM window on desktop 2, the pointer vanished. That is, the mouse pointer is now invisible on desktop 2, except when it is inside the VM window. If I switch back to desktop 1, the mouse pointer is visible, unless I move it onto the menu bar at the top of the screen, where it also vanishes. Logging out and then back in restored the mouse pointer, but after working with the VM for just a few minutes, the mouse pointer disappeared again, exactly as before. Opening system settings brought the mouse pointer back, for some reason. I would like to file a bug on this, if it is not already a known bug. Could this be due to the libinput update? Before the following updates were installed, I never saw this happen. Now it seems to be repeatable: cppcheck-1.88-3.fc30.x86_64 hwdata-0.326-1.fc30.noarch kernel-headers-5.2.5-200.fc30.x86_64 libdnf-0.35.1-3.fc30.x86_64 libinput-1.13.902-1.fc30.x86_64 librepo-1.10.5-1.fc30.x86_64 pcre2-10.33-9.fc30.i686 pcre2-10.33-9.fc30.x86_64 pcre2-devel-10.33-9.fc30.x86_64 pcre2-utf16-10.33-9.fc30.x86_64 pcre2-utf32-10.33-9.fc30.x86_64 perf-5.2.5-200.fc30.x86_64 perl-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-Attribute-Handlers-1.01-438.fc30.noarch perl-Devel-Peek-1.27-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-Devel-SelfStubber-1.06-438.fc30.noarch perl-Errno-1.29-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-ExtUtils-Embed-1.35-438.fc30.noarch perl-ExtUtils-Miniperl-1.08-438.fc30.noarch perl-IO-1.39-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-IO-Zlib-1:1.10-438.fc30.noarch perl-Locale-Maketext-Simple-1:0.21-438.fc30.noarch perl-Math-Complex-1.59-438.fc30.noarch perl-Memoize-1.03-438.fc30.noarch perl-Module-Loaded-1:0.08-438.fc30.noarch perl-Net-Ping-2.62-438.fc30.noarch perl-Pod-Html-1.24-438.fc30.noarch perl-SelfLoader-1.25-438.fc30.noarch perl-Test-1.31-438.fc30.noarch perl-Time-Piece-1.33-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-devel-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-interpreter-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-libnetcfg-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.noarch perl-libs-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-macros-4:5.28.2-438.fc30.x86_64 perl-open-1.11-438.fc30.noarch perl-utils-5.28.2-438.fc30.noarch python3-hawkey-0.35.1-3.fc30.x86_64 python3-libdnf-0.35.1-3.fc30.x86_64 selinux-policy-3.14.3-43.fc30.noarch selinux-policy-targeted-3.14.3-43.fc30.noarch subversion-1.12.2-1.fc30.x86_64 subversion-libs-1.12.2-1.fc30.x86_64 Hints welcome. Thank you, -- Jerry James http://www.jamezone.org/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
