Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:49 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > - Original Message - >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >> >> It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for. >> >> Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope >> >> and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default >> >> python >> >> for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for >> >> those >> >> who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3. >> > >> > Plus, this is also about Python packaging guidelines suggesting usage of >> > #!/usr/bin/python3 hashbang by default [1] (assuming, of course, the >> > upstream supports Python 3). >> >> I don't see that listed in the Change, but I don't think it needs to >> be. The packaging guidelines can be changed to that independently of >> the "default" claim. Frankly, I think the packaging guidelines should >> be changed and in place as a prerequisite for this being approved >> anyway. > > The guidelines have already been changed to say that. Please see the link > that I provided in my previous mail. Ah, excellent. I misread your email and thought it was still to be done. Thank you for clarifying. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message - > On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > >> It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for. > >> Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope > >> and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default > >> python > >> for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for > >> those > >> who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3. > > > > Plus, this is also about Python packaging guidelines suggesting usage of > > #!/usr/bin/python3 hashbang by default [1] (assuming, of course, the > > upstream supports Python 3). > > I don't see that listed in the Change, but I don't think it needs to > be. The packaging guidelines can be changed to that independently of > the "default" claim. Frankly, I think the packaging guidelines should > be changed and in place as a prerequisite for this being approved > anyway. The guidelines have already been changed to say that. Please see the link that I provided in my previous mail. > josh -- Regards, Slavek Kabrda -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: >> It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for. >> Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope >> and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default python >> for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for those >> who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3. > > Plus, this is also about Python packaging guidelines suggesting usage of > #!/usr/bin/python3 hashbang by default [1] (assuming, of course, the upstream > supports Python 3). I don't see that listed in the Change, but I don't think it needs to be. The packaging guidelines can be changed to that independently of the "default" claim. Frankly, I think the packaging guidelines should be changed and in place as a prerequisite for this being approved anyway. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Robert Kuska wrote: > > > - Original Message - >> From: "Kevin Fenzi" >> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:11:36 PM >> Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default >> >> Greetings. >> >> In today's FESCo meeting we had a lot of discussion about this change. >> >> You can read the meeting yourself in: >> http://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2015-06-17/fesco.2015-06-17-18.00.log.html#l-109 >> >> Speaking only for myself here: >> >> I am very happy we are moving more things to python3 and I appreciate >> it's a lot of work and effort. :) >> >> I don't think we should use the word 'default' in this change unless we >> define really what that means. It seems like it means different things >> to different people. >> >> It would be great to come up with an "finished" state for this, but I >> don't know what it would really be. When all our tools used to build >> Fedora are ported? When no python2 depending packages are in repos? >> When python2 is no longer shipped? >> > > It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for. Which is exactly what not everyone agrees with. Specifically for me, claiming an implementation is the default when the tools we have to use to build the distro don't work with python3 is pretty dubious (fedora-packager, bodhi client, koji client, etc). > Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope > and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default python > for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for those > who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3. I doubt that very much. Progress continues to be made. Claiming it is default by cutting out things we still need from the scope doesn't make it magically more important for everyone else. > After we get this change through we may focus on additional porting in next > fedora > releases (new system wide change [if needed] for fedora packaging tools for > example) > and again, use the already accepted fact about python3 being the default > fedora python. The porting needs to happen regardless, and it should already be in plan. > From my POV it is very important to keep the 'default' in the change name. > > My 2 cents. This was said in F21 and F22 as well. We've seen this change 3 releases in a row and a _lot_ of progress has still been made even without the "default" claim. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message -
> - Original Message -
> > From: "Kevin Fenzi"
> > To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:11:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
> >
> > Greetings.
> >
> > In today's FESCo meeting we had a lot of discussion about this change.
> >
> > You can read the meeting yourself in:
> > http://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2015-06-17/fesco.2015-06-17-18.00.log.html#l-109
> >
> > Speaking only for myself here:
> >
> > I am very happy we are moving more things to python3 and I appreciate
> > it's a lot of work and effort. :)
> >
> > I don't think we should use the word 'default' in this change unless we
> > define really what that means. It seems like it means different things
> > to different people.
> >
> > It would be great to come up with an "finished" state for this, but I
> > don't know what it would really be. When all our tools used to build
> > Fedora are ported? When no python2 depending packages are in repos?
> > When python2 is no longer shipped?
> >
>
> It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for.
> Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope
> and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default python
> for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for those
> who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3.
Plus, this is also about Python packaging guidelines suggesting usage of
#!/usr/bin/python3 hashbang by default [1] (assuming, of course, the upstream
supports Python 3).
> After we get this change through we may focus on additional porting in next
> fedora
> releases (new system wide change [if needed] for fedora packaging tools for
> example)
> and again, use the already accepted fact about python3 being the default
> fedora python.
>
> From my POV it is very important to keep the 'default' in the change name.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> > kevin
> >
> --
> Robert Kuska
> {rkuska}
--
Regards,
Slavek Kabrda
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Python#Guidelines
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message -
> From: "Kevin Fenzi"
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
>
> Greetings.
>
> In today's FESCo meeting we had a lot of discussion about this change.
>
> You can read the meeting yourself in:
> http://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2015-06-17/fesco.2015-06-17-18.00.log.html#l-109
>
> Speaking only for myself here:
>
> I am very happy we are moving more things to python3 and I appreciate
> it's a lot of work and effort. :)
>
> I don't think we should use the word 'default' in this change unless we
> define really what that means. It seems like it means different things
> to different people.
>
> It would be great to come up with an "finished" state for this, but I
> don't know what it would really be. When all our tools used to build
> Fedora are ported? When no python2 depending packages are in repos?
> When python2 is no longer shipped?
>
It is written in a scope what does 'default' stands for.
Also from a additional porting POV (packages which ain't covered by scope
and are python2 only) it is important to have stated that the default python
for Fedora is python3 as it will help (a bit at least) as leverage for those
who are reluctant to port their codebase to python3.
After we get this change through we may focus on additional porting in next
fedora
releases (new system wide change [if needed] for fedora packaging tools for
example)
and again, use the already accepted fact about python3 being the default fedora
python.
From my POV it is very important to keep the 'default' in the change name.
My 2 cents.
> kevin
>
> --
> devel mailing list
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
> Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
--
Robert Kuska
{rkuska}
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
Greetings. In today's FESCo meeting we had a lot of discussion about this change. You can read the meeting yourself in: http://meetbot-raw.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2015-06-17/fesco.2015-06-17-18.00.log.html#l-109 Speaking only for myself here: I am very happy we are moving more things to python3 and I appreciate it's a lot of work and effort. :) I don't think we should use the word 'default' in this change unless we define really what that means. It seems like it means different things to different people. It would be great to come up with an "finished" state for this, but I don't know what it would really be. When all our tools used to build Fedora are ported? When no python2 depending packages are in repos? When python2 is no longer shipped? kevin pgpsmD2pvowXB.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: dnf-2 on F23 (Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default)
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 04:22:38AM -0400, Radek Holy wrote: > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek" > > To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:05:41 PM > > Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default > > > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 08:50:14AM -0400, Jan Kurik wrote: > > > = Proposed System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default = > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default > > > > > > Change owner(s): > > > * Slavek Kabrda > > > * Matej Stuchlik > > > * Miro Hroncok > > > * Thomas Spura > > > * Robert Kuska > > > > > > Up until now, Fedora has used Python 2 as the default Python > > > implementation. This change proposes switching to Python 3. The details of > > > the term "switching" are explained thoroughly in the Scope section. > > > > > > == Detailed Description == > > > It is currently mature and stable, since it has been under active > > > development for five years > > More than that, I'm sure. > > > > > == Scope == > > > The main goal is switching to Python 3 as a default, in which state: > > > * DNF is the default package manager instead of Yum, which only works > > > with Python 2 > > Does that mean that dnf-3 is going to become the default which is installed > > as /usr/bin/dnf? > > Will "old" dnf be available as /usr/bin/dnf-2? > Why and how long would you need the "old" DNF? dnf-2 and dnf-3 are > functionally the same. I don't need it at all :), both work fine for me. I was just asking because I think it is good to be very clear about such details and the Change page is vague in some places. Zbyszek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
dnf-2 on F23 (Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default)
- Original Message -
> From: "Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek"
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:05:41 PM
> Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 08:50:14AM -0400, Jan Kurik wrote:
> > = Proposed System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default =
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default
> >
> > Change owner(s):
> > * Slavek Kabrda
> > * Matej Stuchlik
> > * Miro Hroncok
> > * Thomas Spura
> > * Robert Kuska
> >
> > Up until now, Fedora has used Python 2 as the default Python
> > implementation. This change proposes switching to Python 3. The details of
> > the term "switching" are explained thoroughly in the Scope section.
> >
> > == Detailed Description ==
> > It is currently mature and stable, since it has been under active
> > development for five years
> More than that, I'm sure.
>
> > == Scope ==
> > The main goal is switching to Python 3 as a default, in which state:
> > * DNF is the default package manager instead of Yum, which only works
> > with Python 2
> Does that mean that dnf-3 is going to become the default which is installed
> as /usr/bin/dnf?
> Will "old" dnf be available as /usr/bin/dnf-2?
Why and how long would you need the "old" DNF? dnf-2 and dnf-3 are functionally
the same.
> > Changes in packaging:
> > * Change definition of default python interpreter to python3.
> What does that mean?
>
> > * Change unversioned python macros to python3 (Possibly do that change
> > in upstream rpm)
> Hm, I think that this will break hundreds of packages... Not everything has
> been updated to use %{__python2} or %{__python3}, and of those that haven't
> been
> updated, many probably are not ready for switching to python3. I think it
> would be better to avoid a flag day, and simply slowly switch packages
> one by one.
>
> > * All applications that use only a single python version MUST use
> >python3 (unless they have a good reason not to do so).
> Do you intend to file bugs for all such packages or notify maintainers
> in some other way?
>
> Zbyszek
>
>
> --
> devel mailing list
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
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--
Radek Holý
Associate Software Engineer
Software Management Team
Red Hat Czech
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message - > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 04:40 PM, Adam Miller wrote: > > > I think the point that Colin is trying to make is that while Atomic > > Host does not depend on Ansible being installed, it is a very popular > > utility used to remotely manage (potentially large) sets of Atomic > > Hosts. > > Right, see > https://github.com/eparis/kubernetes-ansible > as well as > https://lists.projectatomic.io/projectatomic-archives/atomic-devel/2015-April/msg00027.html > > > Also, while Ansible is agentless it does require the remote > > machine to have python2 installed. Therefore, Fedora Atomic Host is > > likely to continue to ship Python 2.x as a part of it's default > > installation as it's in the best interest of a large population of > > it's user base. > > Right. Ah, ok, that's what I needed to hear :) > > So for the time being, the switch to python3 as default for Atomic > > Host might not be an option or at the very least will be non-trivial > > in terms of what is in the best interest of the users. > > This could be read in multiple ways, so to restate this (again for > the Nth time, not sure why I'm having trouble getting the point across), > I am just saying that the end result will be *both* versions. > > Again: *both* versions. Python 2 *and* Python 3. > > Everything could be ported, except Python 2 would still be installed > even if no package on the host depended on it explicitly. > > (Hmm, I should propose a patch to add it to the manifest, > right now it's pulled in indirectly) Yeah, that'd be very good. I'd probably also advise to add a comment explaining why it's there. Just to make sure that people who come across are aware of it. > Which is a space increase, but we'll just live with it. > > (I'm not the only person who works on Atomic Host so don't > take my opinions here as entirely representative or final, but I'm > stating my opinions based on current resourcing) Thanks. > For how long would Python 2 be installed? I don't know > but the conservative answer would probably be measured in > units of major versions. -- Regards, Slavek Kabrda -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 04:40 PM, Adam Miller wrote: > I think the point that Colin is trying to make is that while Atomic > Host does not depend on Ansible being installed, it is a very popular > utility used to remotely manage (potentially large) sets of Atomic > Hosts. Right, see https://github.com/eparis/kubernetes-ansible as well as https://lists.projectatomic.io/projectatomic-archives/atomic-devel/2015-April/msg00027.html > Also, while Ansible is agentless it does require the remote > machine to have python2 installed. Therefore, Fedora Atomic Host is > likely to continue to ship Python 2.x as a part of it's default > installation as it's in the best interest of a large population of > it's user base. Right. > So for the time being, the switch to python3 as default for Atomic > Host might not be an option or at the very least will be non-trivial > in terms of what is in the best interest of the users. This could be read in multiple ways, so to restate this (again for the Nth time, not sure why I'm having trouble getting the point across), I am just saying that the end result will be *both* versions. Again: *both* versions. Python 2 *and* Python 3. Everything could be ported, except Python 2 would still be installed even if no package on the host depended on it explicitly. (Hmm, I should propose a patch to add it to the manifest, right now it's pulled in indirectly) Which is a space increase, but we'll just live with it. (I'm not the only person who works on Atomic Host so don't take my opinions here as entirely representative or final, but I'm stating my opinions based on current resourcing) For how long would Python 2 be installed? I don't know but the conservative answer would probably be measured in units of major versions. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 09:30 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > >> Could you please be more specific with your answers? What does *there* mean? > > there = Atomic Host I think the point that Colin is trying to make is that while Atomic Host does not depend on Ansible being installed, it is a very popular utility used to remotely manage (potentially large) sets of Atomic Hosts. Also, while Ansible is agentless it does require the remote machine to have python2 installed. Therefore, Fedora Atomic Host is likely to continue to ship Python 2.x as a part of it's default installation as it's in the best interest of a large population of it's user base. So for the time being, the switch to python3 as default for Atomic Host might not be an option or at the very least will be non-trivial in terms of what is in the best interest of the users. Colin, please correct me if i am incorrect. -AdamM > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 09:30 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > Could you please be more specific with your answers? What does *there* mean? there = Atomic Host -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message - > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 09:03 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > > > > Which means that it isn't *in* the Atomic host itself, but it is only used > > to *control instances* of Atomic host, is that correct? If so, I see no > > conflict with the proposed change. > > It's not a conflict. I'm just making the point that in the end *both* > versions will be there. Could you please be more specific with your answers? What does *there* mean? Atomic host instance itself or a machine from which you control Atomic host instance? Generally, we expect that not all software will be ported to Python 3, so we do expect that on some systems you'll end up having both. We'd just like to minimize the number of these as much as possible. Thanks. -- Regards, Slavek Kabrda -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 09:03 AM, Bohuslav Kabrda wrote: > > Which means that it isn't *in* the Atomic host itself, but it is only used to > *control instances* of Atomic host, is that correct? If so, I see no conflict > with the proposed change. It's not a conflict. I'm just making the point that in the end *both* versions will be there. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message - > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 04:01 AM, Robert Kuska wrote: > > > Does it mean that Ansible is shipped by default with Atomic host? > > > > We were working with data provided by > > https://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-atomic.git > > and there is no ansible listed within packages. > > Ansible is agentless, you install it on your client machine, and it uploads > Python > code to the server, without requiring anything other than that to be > installed. Which means that it isn't *in* the Atomic host itself, but it is only used to *control instances* of Atomic host, is that correct? If so, I see no conflict with the proposed change. -- Regards, Slavek Kabrda -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015, at 04:01 AM, Robert Kuska wrote: > Does it mean that Ansible is shipped by default with Atomic host? > > We were working with data provided by > https://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-atomic.git > and there is no ansible listed within packages. Ansible is agentless, you install it on your client machine, and it uploads Python code to the server, without requiring anything other than that to be installed. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message -
> From: "Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek"
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 10:05:41 PM
> Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 08:50:14AM -0400, Jan Kurik wrote:
> > = Proposed System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default =
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default
> >
> > Change owner(s):
> > * Slavek Kabrda
> > * Matej Stuchlik
> > * Miro Hroncok
> > * Thomas Spura
> > * Robert Kuska
> >
> > Up until now, Fedora has used Python 2 as the default Python
> > implementation. This change proposes switching to Python 3. The details of
> > the term "switching" are explained thoroughly in the Scope section.
> >
> > == Detailed Description ==
> > It is currently mature and stable, since it has been under active
> > development for five years
> More than that, I'm sure.
>
> > == Scope ==
> > The main goal is switching to Python 3 as a default, in which state:
> > * DNF is the default package manager instead of Yum, which only works
> > with Python 2
> Does that mean that dnf-3 is going to become the default which is installed
> as /usr/bin/dnf?
Yes
> Will "old" dnf be available as /usr/bin/dnf-2?
This decision is solely in the hands of dnf maintainers.
Looking at current state (f22):
rkuska@deimos ~ [11:03:23]
> $ rpm -ql dnf | grep bin
/usr/bin/dnf
rkuska@deimos ~ [11:03:31]
> $ rpm -ql python-dnf | grep bin
/usr/bin/dnf-2
rkuska@deimos ~ [11:03:35]
> $ rpm -ql python3-dnf | grep bin
/usr/bin/dnf-3
the answer seems to be yes.
>
> > Changes in packaging:
> > * Change definition of default python interpreter to python3.
> What does that mean?
>
> > * Change unversioned python macros to python3 (Possibly do that change
> > in upstream rpm)
> Hm, I think that this will break hundreds of packages... Not everything has
> been updated to use %{__python2} or %{__python3}, and of those that haven't
> been
> updated, many probably are not ready for switching to python3. I think it
> would be better to avoid a flag day, and simply slowly switch packages
> one by one.
This is already part of packaging guidelines so any package that is not using
versioned macros doesn't comply the guidelines and therefore should be fixed.
So either packagers will fix their packages themselves once they fail to build
during mass rebuild or we (owners of the change) will step in.
>
> > * All applications that use only a single python version MUST use
> >python3 (unless they have a good reason not to do so).
> Do you intend to file bugs for all such packages or notify maintainers
> in some other way?
This applies for new reviewed packages and for those who are installed
by default on different target releases (do we have a common name for different
fedora releases such as LiveDVD, Atomic, Cloud etc?) listed in scope and for
these
either already exist or we plan to open bugzilla reports.
>
> Zbyszek
>
>
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
- Original Message -
> From: "Colin Walters"
> To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 3:15:27 PM
> Subject: Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015, at 08:50 AM, Jan Kurik wrote:
> >
> > * Python 3 is the only Python implementation in Atomic host
>
> That's not going to happen unless Ansible learns how to deal
> with Python 3 at least:
Does it mean that Ansible is shipped by default with Atomic host?
We were working with data provided by
https://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-atomic.git
and there is no ansible listed within packages.
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2015-January/206903.html
>
> So again, this change is very likely to be "Add Python 3 by default and port
> a lot of things" at least for the base Server and Atomic Host". Other
> configurations like the Docker base image are more realistic to have Python
> 3 only.
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 08:50:14AM -0400, Jan Kurik wrote:
> = Proposed System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default =
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default
>
> Change owner(s):
> * Slavek Kabrda
> * Matej Stuchlik
> * Miro Hroncok
> * Thomas Spura
> * Robert Kuska
>
> Up until now, Fedora has used Python 2 as the default Python implementation.
> This change proposes switching to Python 3. The details of the term
> "switching" are explained thoroughly in the Scope section.
>
> == Detailed Description ==
> It is currently mature and stable, since it has been under active
> development for five years
More than that, I'm sure.
> == Scope ==
> The main goal is switching to Python 3 as a default, in which state:
> * DNF is the default package manager instead of Yum, which only works
> with Python 2
Does that mean that dnf-3 is going to become the default which is installed as
/usr/bin/dnf?
Will "old" dnf be available as /usr/bin/dnf-2?
> Changes in packaging:
> * Change definition of default python interpreter to python3.
What does that mean?
> * Change unversioned python macros to python3 (Possibly do that change in
> upstream rpm)
Hm, I think that this will break hundreds of packages... Not everything has
been updated to use %{__python2} or %{__python3}, and of those that haven't been
updated, many probably are not ready for switching to python3. I think it
would be better to avoid a flag day, and simply slowly switch packages
one by one.
> * All applications that use only a single python version MUST use
>python3 (unless they have a good reason not to do so).
Do you intend to file bugs for all such packages or notify maintainers
in some other way?
Zbyszek
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Re: F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015, at 08:50 AM, Jan Kurik wrote: > > * Python 3 is the only Python implementation in Atomic host That's not going to happen unless Ansible learns how to deal with Python 3 at least: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2015-January/206903.html So again, this change is very likely to be "Add Python 3 by default and port a lot of things" at least for the base Server and Atomic Host". Other configurations like the Docker base image are more realistic to have Python 3 only. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
F23 System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default
= Proposed System Wide Change: Python 3 as Default = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default Change owner(s): * Slavek Kabrda * Matej Stuchlik * Miro Hroncok * Thomas Spura * Robert Kuska Up until now, Fedora has used Python 2 as the default Python implementation. This change proposes switching to Python 3. The details of the term "switching" are explained thoroughly in the Scope section. == Detailed Description == Python 3 is the next generation of Python programming language. It is currently mature and stable, since it has been under active development for five years - version 3.0 was released in December 2008, current latest stable version is 3.4.3 released in February 2015. The main reason to switch to Python 3 as the default implementation is that Python 2 is in maintenance mode, thus only bugfixes and security fixes are accepted upstream. Further reasons are mentioned in the Benefit to Fedora section. For this Change to be carried out successfully, it is necessary that the key packages in the Fedora software stack be ported to Python 3. These are parts of the minimal buildroot, the default package manager, programs present on the LiveCD etc. == Scope == The main goal is switching to Python 3 as a default, in which state: * DNF is the default package manager instead of Yum, which only works with Python 2 * Python 3 is the only Python implementation in the minimal buildroot (already done since F22) * Python 3 is the only Python implementation on the Workstation LiveDVD * Python 3 is the only Python implementation in minimal cloud image * Python 3 is the only Python implementation in Atomic host * It'd also be nice to have Python 3 as the only implementation on the Server LiveDVD, but it's not likely Changes in packaging: * Change definition of default python interpreter to python3. * Change unversioned python macros to python3 (Possibly do that change in upstream rpm) * All applications that use only a single python version MUST use python3 (unless they have a good reason not to do so). Fate of /usr/bin/python: * /usr/bin/python will still point to Python2 version of interpreter as suggested in PEP0394. * There will be no /usr/bin/python on LiveDVD as python3 will became the only python interpreter shipped by default. * Python (python2 version of the interpreter) package will be still available (via dnf install) and will provide /usr/bin/python. Work in Fedora 23 Timeframe: * Proposal owners: - Continue the work from F21 and F22 timeframe - Modify comps accordingly - Apply the changes to Python packaging guidelines * Other developers: Introduce python3- subpackages where appropriate, build against Python 3 if the package supports it * Release engineering: Nothing * Policies and guidelines: TODO: changes in packaging -- Jan Kuřík ___ devel-announce mailing list devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
