Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Jonathan Wright via devel]

Uh no?  There's nothing headed to any Fedora release that will replace or
touch redis in any way.  The "obsoletes" is commented out in the spec and
non-functional, it's only there for note/intent purposes depending on what
comes of this change proposal.

If I mistakenly pushed something somewhere that would touch redis in any
way please point me to it and I'll fix it immediately.

On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 12:01 AM Nathan Scott  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 2:29 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
> > On Fri Apr 19, 2024 at 14:23 +1000, Nathan Scott wrote:
> >
> > The package does not have any Obsoletes, so nothing should happen unless
> > users take explicit action to install valkey.
> >
>
> Yes, that's my point - if someone installs valkey, their redis
> installation is essentially trashed.
>
> I'd say "fair enough" if this was rawhide and we're working on the
> transition still, but this is stable Fedora, EPEL and user's data.
>
> cheers.
>
> --
> Nathan
>
>

-- 
Jonathan Wright
AlmaLinux Foundation
Mattermost: chat 
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Nathan Scott]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 2:29 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
> On Fri Apr 19, 2024 at 14:23 +1000, Nathan Scott wrote:
>
> The package does not have any Obsoletes, so nothing should happen unless
> users take explicit action to install valkey.
>

Yes, that's my point - if someone installs valkey, their redis
installation is essentially trashed.

I'd say "fair enough" if this was rawhide and we're working on the
transition still, but this is stable Fedora, EPEL and user's data.

cheers.

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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Maxwell G]

On Fri Apr 19, 2024 at 14:23 +1000, Nathan Scott wrote:
> Hi Neal,
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:02 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:43 PM Nathan Scott  wrote:
> > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:29 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > retaining Redis will just hurt us in the long term.
> > >
> > > Noone is saying we should retain Redis.  I'm advocating for a more
> > > appropriate transition that is respectful of the work and expertise the
> > > existing package maintainers bring.
> > >
> > > I think f41 is appropriate and possible, but "more haste, less speed"
> > > is the way to get there, with minimal breakage to Fedora and users.
> > >
> >
> > From my perspective, I don't see any breakage happening. We also
> > haven't *done* anything yet.
> >
>
> Sooo, about that... :)   I see there is a valkey build winging its way
> toward f39 and f38 now:
> https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/?packages=valkey
>
> If someone has an active redis installation on those systems and
> install that - aren't they in for a bit of a surprise?  Correct me if I'm
> wrong, but this will replace redis - leaving /var/lib/redis with their
> current data, and start a new "redis-server" (aka "valkey-server")
> process writing into a new, empty rdb file below /var/lib/valkey, no?
> If so, how do they reconcile those split rdb files?
>
> Let's slow down a bit, it's not so urgent that we risk peoples data.

The package does not have any Obsoletes, so nothing should happen unless
users take explicit action to install valkey.
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Neal,

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 1:02 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:43 PM Nathan Scott  wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:29 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > retaining Redis will just hurt us in the long term.
> >
> > Noone is saying we should retain Redis.  I'm advocating for a more
> > appropriate transition that is respectful of the work and expertise the
> > existing package maintainers bring.
> >
> > I think f41 is appropriate and possible, but "more haste, less speed"
> > is the way to get there, with minimal breakage to Fedora and users.
> >
>
> From my perspective, I don't see any breakage happening. We also
> haven't *done* anything yet.
>

Sooo, about that... :)   I see there is a valkey build winging its way
toward f39 and f38 now:
https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/?packages=valkey

If someone has an active redis installation on those systems and
install that - aren't they in for a bit of a surprise?  Correct me if I'm
wrong, but this will replace redis - leaving /var/lib/redis with their
current data, and start a new "redis-server" (aka "valkey-server")
process writing into a new, empty rdb file below /var/lib/valkey, no?
If so, how do they reconcile those split rdb files?

Let's slow down a bit, it's not so urgent that we risk peoples data.

cheers.

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Nathan
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Maxwell G]

On Thu Apr 18, 2024 at 11:51 +1000, Nathan Scott wrote:
> > > == Owner ==
> > > * Name: [[User:jonathanspw|Jonathan Wright]]
> > > * Email: jonat...@almalinux.org
> >
> > It would be nice to have Remi who currently maintains redis on board as 
> > well.
> >
>
> This is the second time this has been requested, but not yet actioned.
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2274206
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/valkey
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/redis
>
> Can we resolve this before allowing this Change Proposal to proceed,
> please?  I think its in Fedora's interest to see 'new redis' maintained
> by group, rather than an individual, if the existing maintainers wish to
> (continue to) be involved.
>
> The 'new' valkey package is very closely derived from redis packaging
> which other Fedora maintainers have been looking after for ~14 years.

Yeah, I strongly agree. Thank you, Nathan and Remi, for the work you've
done to maintain redis up until now.
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Maxwell G]

On 4/18/24 00:51, Remi Collet wrote:

Le 17/04/2024 à 18:37, Maxwell G a écrit :

On Wed Apr 17, 2024 at 16:38 +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
Thank you for submitting this!


I agree we’ll have to get rid of redis in the future, and than such a 
switch will make a strong statement about our disapproval to redis 
about this License change.


But I also think this is a bit early (F41)

- Valkey is very young, and they is no proof it will be best choice

- Redis 7.2 is still there and maintained (even version 6.2 and 7.0 
are maintained), and keeping it have no security issue.


So I’m -1 for F41 and probably +1 for F42



One option is to introduce {valkey,redict}-redis-compat packages now 
(users could "dnf swap redis " themselves) and then 
consider making one "the default" and Obsoleting redis in F42.

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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Nathan Scott wrote:
> - it could be advantageous if the new compat sub-package contained
> the redis binary symlinks & not the primary valkey package (this could
> allow valkey and redict packages to coexist, for example).  Long-term
> we may want to drop those entirely (along with the compat package, to
> complete the transition away from Redis).

I do not see why we need a separate compat subpackage at all. Valkey should 
just Obsolete/Provide redis and include all the compat symlinks in the main 
package.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Remi Collet]

Le 17/04/2024 à 18:37, Maxwell G a écrit :

On Wed Apr 17, 2024 at 16:38 +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
Thank you for submitting this!


I agree we’ll have to get rid of redis in the future, and than such a 
switch will make a strong statement about our disapproval to redis about 
this License change.


But I also think this is a bit early (F41)

- Valkey is very young, and they is no proof it will be best choice

- Redis 7.2 is still there and maintained (even version 6.2 and 7.0 are 
maintained), and keeping it have no security issue.


So I’m -1 for F41 and probably +1 for F42


Remi
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 10:43 PM Nathan Scott  wrote:
>
> Hi Neal,
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:29 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > [...]
> > retaining Redis will just hurt us in the long term.
>
> Noone is saying we should retain Redis.  I'm advocating for a more
> appropriate transition that is respectful of the work and expertise the
> existing package maintainers bring.
>
> I think f41 is appropriate and possible, but "more haste, less speed"
> is the way to get there, with minimal breakage to Fedora and users.
>

From my perspective, I don't see any breakage happening. We also
haven't *done* anything yet.


--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Neal,

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 12:29 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> [...]
> retaining Redis will just hurt us in the long term.

Noone is saying we should retain Redis.  I'm advocating for a more
appropriate transition that is respectful of the work and expertise the
existing package maintainers bring.

I think f41 is appropriate and possible, but "more haste, less speed"
is the way to get there, with minimal breakage to Fedora and users.

cheers.

--
Nathan
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 9:52 PM Nathan Scott  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 2:38 AM Maxwell G  wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for submitting this!
>
> +1
>
> > > == Owner ==
> > > * Name: [[User:jonathanspw|Jonathan Wright]]
> > > * Email: jonat...@almalinux.org
> >
> > It would be nice to have Remi who currently maintains redis on board as 
> > well.
> >
>
> This is the second time this has been requested, but not yet actioned.
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2274206
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/valkey
> https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/redis
>
> Can we resolve this before allowing this Change Proposal to proceed,
> please?  I think its in Fedora's interest to see 'new redis' maintained
> by group, rather than an individual, if the existing maintainers wish to
> (continue to) be involved.
>
> The 'new' valkey package is very closely derived from redis packaging
> which other Fedora maintainers have been looking after for ~14 years.
>
> There is no big rush to switch AFAICT though, as Redis[Labs] stated
> they continue to provide updates for redis-7.2.4 (including CVE fixes,
> which is a big part of the Fedora workload) for the foreseeable future.
>

On the contrary, we *have* to do it sooner rather than later. As
divergence among the forks occurs and the community shifts away,
retaining Redis will just hurt us in the long term. Not to mention,
now that they've pulled this change on us (after saying they wouldn't
five years ago), there's no guarantee that they'd continue to do
anything. Their word isn't worth a lot anymore.

> Some other technical questions:
> - it could be advantageous if the new compat sub-package contained
> the redis binary symlinks & not the primary valkey package (this could
> allow valkey and redict packages to coexist, for example).  Long-term
> we may want to drop those entirely (along with the compat package, to
> complete the transition away from Redis).

We will probably never be able to completely drop this, as stuff may
exist for a very long time that needs it.

> - what happened to the man page patch Remi made?  we should carry
> it forward into the new package (and try again with new upstream folks
> to get it merged there).

That patch should be completely rewritten for upstreaming anyway. It's
not written in a maintainable format, which really doesn't help for
upstreaming at all.



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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

On Thu, Apr 18, 2024 at 2:38 AM Maxwell G  wrote:
>
> Thank you for submitting this!

+1

> > == Owner ==
> > * Name: [[User:jonathanspw|Jonathan Wright]]
> > * Email: jonat...@almalinux.org
>
> It would be nice to have Remi who currently maintains redis on board as well.
>

This is the second time this has been requested, but not yet actioned.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2274206
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/valkey
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/redis

Can we resolve this before allowing this Change Proposal to proceed,
please?  I think its in Fedora's interest to see 'new redis' maintained
by group, rather than an individual, if the existing maintainers wish to
(continue to) be involved.

The 'new' valkey package is very closely derived from redis packaging
which other Fedora maintainers have been looking after for ~14 years.

There is no big rush to switch AFAICT though, as Redis[Labs] stated
they continue to provide updates for redis-7.2.4 (including CVE fixes,
which is a big part of the Fedora workload) for the foreseeable future.

Some other technical questions:
- it could be advantageous if the new compat sub-package contained
the redis binary symlinks & not the primary valkey package (this could
allow valkey and redict packages to coexist, for example).  Long-term
we may want to drop those entirely (along with the compat package, to
complete the transition away from Redis).
- what happened to the man page patch Remi made?  we should carry
it forward into the new package (and try again with new upstream folks
to get it merged there).
- we need to coordinate on the handling of the redis modules in Fedora -
RediSearch, rebloom and rejson.  I've begun transitioning these working
with upstream, but more time would be helpful.

cheers.

--
Nathan
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Maxwell G]

On Wed Apr 17, 2024 at 16:38 +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
Thank you for submitting this!

> == Owner ==
> * Name: [[User:jonathanspw|Jonathan Wright]]
> * Email: jonat...@almalinux.org

It would be nice to have Remi who currently maintains redis on board as well.


> == Detailed Description ==
> We will replace Redis with Valkey due to the recent licensing changes
> in Redis, which have rendered it incompatible with Free and Open
> Source Software (FOSS) principles. This shift in Redis's licensing can
> impact Fedora's commitment to FOSS, potentially limiting users'
> freedom to modify and redistribute the software under the same terms.
> Valkey, a fork of Redis, emerges as a viable alternative because it
> retains a FOSS-compatible license and has robust community and
> developmental support. Adopting Valkey allows us to continue offering
> users a powerful in-memory data structure store without compromising
> on licensing restrictions.

I assume you've also considered https://codeberg.org/redict/redict as an
alternative? Redict seems more open to helping distributions. Redict
already plans to remove its in-tree, patched lua copy to benefit
distributions like ours that favor system libraries. It has committed to
using FOSS infrastructure (Codeberg, builds.sr.ht, Matrix, IRC, FOSS
container registry) instead of proprietary infrastructure (Github,
Discord) which is something that Fedora also values. It was started by
Drew Devault of Sourcehut who has a strong commitment to FOSS. On the
other hand, some of the original contributors and the Linux Foundation
have gotten behind Valkey. I would at least address Redict in passing in
the Change proposal even if you've already decided that Valkey is the
better choice.
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Replace Redis with Valkey (system-wide)

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 04:38:32PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> == Contingency Plan ==
> * Contingency mechanism: (What to do?  Who will do it?) Do not
> obsolete Redis with Valkey
> * Contingency deadline: N/A

Hmm, is this coningency. plan realistic at all? IIUC, we can't update
redis, so we wouldn't want to make a new release with it.

Zbyszek
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