Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/ and https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora developer experience... Agree. They can start with the interesting part - coding - first. ...We may want to pick out particular assistants and highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push the comprehensive side of the story further upstream... Exactly. We would provide information how to get it running on Fedora - like the current Ruby guide. (They can, of course, use DevAssistant) ..., and have developers.fedoraproject.org present a more filtered view, just as the main Fedora repos represent a filtered view of the upstream software repositories. My rationale for that is that DA provides an abstraction layer over various mundane technical details - if you're using a well-maintained DA Assistant to automate setting up a particular kind of project, then your own practices can automatically adapt as recommendations change... Good point. I didn't think about it this way. ...If folks want to learn more about the details of a recommendation, they can dig into the implementation of the relevant assistant, but if they don't want to care, they don't have to. The DA folks are also actively working on offering good support for the Container Tools workflow coming out of Project Atomic - that's a Vagrant+containers based approach designed to be cross-platform for development purposes and cross-distro for both development and deployment, so adopting it for web service development means folks are automatically lowering the barriers to entry to contributing to and deploying their project. That workflow also actively encourages folks to clearly separate their unit testing from their behavioural testing. Given a default assumption that folks are willing to use DevAssistant (either through the GUI or through the CLI), then the following kinds of questions could help guide site users to appropriate assistants: * I want to build a web application, where do I start? * I want to build a command line application, where do I start? * I want to build a desktop GUI application, where do I start? * I want to build a mobile application, where do I start? * I want to work with the Raspberry Pi, where do I start? * I want to work with Arduino devices, where do I start? * I want to work with other embedded devices, where do I start? * I want to provide online documentation for my project, where do I start? * I want to collaborate effectively with others on my project, where do I start? That last one wouldn't be a pointer to any DA Assistants, but rather a pointer to resources like choosealicence.com, and a review of some of the available project hosting options (most notably GitLab, GitHub, BitBucket and FedoraHosted) I really like the point about collaboration and choosing a license. It's essential and I totally missed it in the initial plan. P.S. A note regarding the Raspberry Pi: I think this is a good example of a case where cross-distro development support is important, as we'd like to make it easy for folks to develop for the Raspberry Pi on Fedora while targeting both the default Raspbian image and the Fedora Pi remix, rather than only supporting developing for the latter. I like the hidden message in this note: We don't want to vendor-lock you to Fedora. We want you to use it because it helps you, not because you have to. - Original Message - From: Nick Coghlan ncogh...@redhat.com To: Adam Samalik asama...@redhat.com, Development discussions related to Fedora devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list env-and-sta...@lists.fedoraproject.org, du...@redhat.com Sent: Monday, 27 July, 2015 6:41:40 AM Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept On 07/24/2015 07:16 PM, Adam Samalik wrote: Hi Nick, thanks! What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the problem to be solved starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django, Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and deployment option would show up as well. What do you think? I think it probably makes sense to focus on http://devassistant.org/ and https://dapi.devassistant.org/ as the entry points to the Fedora developer experience. We may want to pick out particular assistants and highlight them (especially if we design the Fedora DA package to come with some assistants pre-installed), but I think it makes sense to push the comprehensive side of the story
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On 23 Jul 2015 01:17, Adam Samalik asama...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everyone, I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback: https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/ Very nice! What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would like to have a session with you, people interested in this project, to discuss the content, structure and basically everything related to this. For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the Fedora Developer Portal is not that big, it would be really nice. I'd be interested in attending a session like that (but would also understand if having Australia in the time zone mix proved impractical from the point of view of scheduling a discussion). Regards, Nick. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
Hi Nick, thanks! What I'm still missing in the current prototype is the problem to be solved starting point - as you pointed out at the env-and-stacks meeting. For example: I want to develop a web application. The site would give me options like Django, Flask, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Jekyll,... Or even better, something more precise like deciding the type of the web app: an application with backend and database, a static site, blog or a wiki page? The tech-specific overview would show up afterwards. Suitable tools and deployment option would show up as well. What do you think? About the session vs time zones, I haven't realized that we are literally all around the world :-) Personally, I'm very flexible with timing and willing to do a session at (I know I will regret that at 3 AM) any time. It's very important for me to make it successful. Or we can do more than one. I will attend both/all of them. Adam - Original Message - From: Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com To: Development discussions related to Fedora devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list env-and-sta...@lists.fedoraproject.org, ncogh...@redhat.com, du...@redhat.com Sent: Friday, 24 July, 2015 10:45:06 AM Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept On 23 Jul 2015 01:17, Adam Samalik asama...@redhat.com wrote: Hi everyone, I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback: https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/ Very nice! What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would like to have a session with you, people interested in this project, to discuss the content, structure and basically everything related to this. For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the Fedora Developer Portal is not that big, it would be really nice. I'd be interested in attending a session like that (but would also understand if having Australia in the time zone mix proved impractical from the point of view of scheduling a discussion). Regards, Nick. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
Hi everyone, I updated the prototype and tried apply your feedback: https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/ I removed everything random from the home page and changed it - so it better explains the purpose of the portal. The previous version was more about previewing the technology and structure in the main menu. The homepage itself wasn't that important - sorry again for not making this clear in advance. We should be now able to use the prototype to: - preview the content from our content repo [1] (it's better than reading markdown) - decide whether this structure is acceptable (and probably change it a lot) - and basically have something running What it's not in the prototype: - section with docker images and vagrant boxes to download - section with blogs and updates What I would like to do next? Ideally, if you find some time, I would like to have a session with you, people interested in this project, to discuss the content, structure and basically everything related to this. For example, I really like how the Fedora Hubs project [2] is going. If we could do something similar, even when the Fedora Developer Portal is not that big, it would be really nice. If you don't know what this is all about, please visit our project wiki [3] or ask me any question. Adam [1] https://github.com/developer-portal/content [2] http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2015/07/01/fedora-hubs-update/ [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer - Original Message - From: Petr Hracek phra...@redhat.com To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 July, 2015 3:24:11 PM Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept On 07/21/2015 04:00 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Wakely jwak...@redhat.com wrote: On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. Under The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora and ready to use! would it be worth mentioning C and C++? GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the latest C++ standard library extensions than any other compiler. There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited by shiny dynamic languages ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrasing Fedora is made for developers. It implies that we don't do anything to make it great for non-developers, which is not true at all. Is there a better way we can word this? As I mentioned in the first mail. This is proof of concept and will be definitely changed. UX team could look at it and let us know whether is fullfield with fedoraproject UX layouts. Other pages which could be developed later on could have the same faces so that all pages looks the same. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- Petr Hracek Software Engineer Developer Experience Red Hat, Inc Mob: +420777056169 email: phra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On 07/21/2015 04:00 PM, Neal Gompa wrote: On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Wakely jwak...@redhat.com mailto:jwak...@redhat.comwrote: On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. Under The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora and ready to use! would it be worth mentioning C and C++? GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the latest C++ standard library extensions than any other compiler. There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited by shiny dynamic languages ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org mailto:devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrasing Fedora is made for developers. It implies that we don't do anything to make it great for non-developers, which is not true at all. Is there a better way we can word this? As I mentioned in the first mail. This is *proof of concept* and will be definitely changed. UX team could look at it and let us know whether is fullfield with fedoraproject UX layouts. Other pages which could be developed later on could have the same faces so that all pages looks the same. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- Petr Hracek Software Engineer Developer Experience Red Hat, Inc Mob: +420777056169 email: phra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
Thank you all for the feedback! The site is just a prototype to see how the technology works and to be able to preview the content in a better way than reading markdown from the git repo. Fedora is made for developers - To be honest, I wasn't trying to write something great, I just added a line of text to fill the space up. The homepage itself is very far away from the final state. The main purpose [of the currently deployed version] of this prototype is to be able to preview the content from git. There is no C and C++ - Sory guys, again, the homepage is just filled up with random stuff. C and C++ will be definitely a part of the content! I promise I will use Lorem Ipsum more often to avoid these unpleasant situations :-) Thanks again for the feedback! Any ideas and more feedback is very very welcome! Please feel free to get engaged in any way. Git repos and the project wiki are mentioned in Petr's first email. Everything on the current prototype might be (and probably will be) changed according to your feedback. Adam - Original Message - From: Josh Boyer jwbo...@fedoraproject.org To: Máirín Duffy du...@redhat.com Cc: Development discussions related to Fedora devel@lists.fedoraproject.org, Fedora Environment and Stacks Working Group mailing list env-and-sta...@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Tuesday, 21 July, 2015 4:05:03 PM Subject: Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Máirín Duffy du...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/21/2015 09:51 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: I'm curious how this is going to be tied into the Fedora Hubs work? If it isn't, I'm curious why not :) So Fedora Hubs' main audiences are folks who are contributing to Fedora, whether they are new or experienced Fedora contributors. It's my understanding that the developer.fpo site is more focused towards: - developers who may develop apps for Linux but do not exclusively focus on Fedora in terms of as a target for their own applications - developers who may want to or do use Fedora, and while they happen to be developers but don't actually develop Fedora itself. That being said, there is no reason why we couldn't have a hub tied to developer.fpo that aggregates info from developer.fpo and provides a social space for Fedora contributors who also fit into the developer.fpo audience. Hope that makes sense? Yes, thank you. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On 07/21/2015 10:48 AM, Adam Samalik wrote: There is no C and C++ - Sory guys, again, the homepage is just filled up with random stuff. C and C++ will be definitely a part of the content! I promise I will use Lorem Ipsum more often to avoid these unpleasant situations :-) I don't know if this content is similarly random then, but with the aforementioned target audiences in mind, I'm not sure what's up with the Fedora.next section (far right on the nav bar) and the content under that. I'm not sure of the context in which the target audience devs would need this info? Another suggestion - I think the language-specific documentation was a core and valuable feature in the proposal but it's a bit hidden in this design. Under the runtimes/frameworks section on the front, maybe add a button for each one More info for $LANG/FRAMEWORK developers that would drive users to those lang/framework-specific pages (similar to how you did 'learn more' for the tools.) Having these accessible only from a drop-down menu obscures them a lot unfortunately. I think the main thing the site is missing is a narrative for how/why you'd want to use it. I know you don't have final content, but I think users are really going to need more guidance to understand how/why they're going to use the site. I think a good next step is developing that narrative. You might also get more helpful / useful feedback by reposting part of the proposal on the wiki here on list so folks can get more of an idea of the background / context around the site. It was in your footnotes but not everybody reads all of those :) ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On 21.7.2015 16:04, Josh Boyer wrote: The site is specifically targeted at developers. The URL will likely be something like developers.fedoraproject.org. This isn't a generic, front-page site. Given the targeted nature of it, I think it's perfectly fine to say Fedora is built for developers. I mean, you wouldn't want a developer coming to this page and seeing Fedora is built for everyone and then a bunch of text explaining that. josh Agree -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Petr Hracek phra...@redhat.com wrote: Hi Fedora devels and other folks, Adam Samalik and me we create a first proof of concept Fedora Developer Portal. Testing instance is already available here [1]. Fedora Developer Portal is a new place for developers and not only for them, providing information about tools, projects, technologies and other features that are packaged in Fedora. This page would be mainly used for developers building on Fedora and help them with tools. But of course other users can use main technologies developed on Fedora. It is plan to have reference to this portal from [2]. What is possible structure of Fedora Developer Portal is on [3] page under section 'Structure'. If anyone is interested with helping us to create this portal please clone repository [4] and provide any contents. We will review it together with other colleagues and add it to this Page. UX design is going to be discussed and reviewed by Mairin. Thanks for your help. I'm curious how this is going to be tied into the Fedora Hubs work? If it isn't, I'm curious why not :) josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. Under The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora and ready to use! would it be worth mentioning C and C++? GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the latest C++ standard library extensions than any other compiler. There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited by shiny dynamic languages ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Wakely jwak...@redhat.com wrote: On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. Under The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora and ready to use! would it be worth mentioning C and C++? GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the latest C++ standard library extensions than any other compiler. There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited by shiny dynamic languages ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrasing Fedora is made for developers. It implies that we don't do anything to make it great for non-developers, which is not true at all. Is there a better way we can word this? -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
(resending with my fpo email; my rht email isn't sub'ed to devel@) On 07/21/2015 09:51 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: I'm curious how this is going to be tied into the Fedora Hubs work? If it isn't, I'm curious why not :) So Fedora Hubs' main audiences are folks who are contributing to Fedora, whether they are new or experienced Fedora contributors. It's my understanding that the developer.fpo site is more focused towards: - developers who may develop apps for Linux but do not exclusively focus on Fedora in terms of as a target for their own applications - developers who may want to or do use Fedora, and while they happen to be developers but don't actually develop Fedora itself. That being said, there is no reason why we couldn't have a hub tied to developer.fpo that aggregates info from developer.fpo and provides a social space for Fedora contributors who also fit into the developer.fpo audience. Hope that makes sense? ~m -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Máirín Duffy du...@redhat.com wrote: On 07/21/2015 09:51 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: I'm curious how this is going to be tied into the Fedora Hubs work? If it isn't, I'm curious why not :) So Fedora Hubs' main audiences are folks who are contributing to Fedora, whether they are new or experienced Fedora contributors. It's my understanding that the developer.fpo site is more focused towards: - developers who may develop apps for Linux but do not exclusively focus on Fedora in terms of as a target for their own applications - developers who may want to or do use Fedora, and while they happen to be developers but don't actually develop Fedora itself. That being said, there is no reason why we couldn't have a hub tied to developer.fpo that aggregates info from developer.fpo and provides a social space for Fedora contributors who also fit into the developer.fpo audience. Hope that makes sense? Yes, thank you. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Neal Gompa ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Jonathan Wakely jwak...@redhat.com wrote: On 21/07/15 15:45 +0200, Petr Hracek wrote: Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. Under The latest stable runtimes and frameworks Packaged in Fedora and ready to use! would it be worth mentioning C and C++? GCC 5 is the first compiler to default to the latest C11 standard, and we ship more of the latest C++ standard library extensions than any other compiler. There's a lot happening in that space, and not everyone gets excited by shiny dynamic languages ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrasing Fedora is made for developers. It implies that we don't do anything to make it great for non-developers, which is not true at all. Is there a better way we can word this? The site is specifically targeted at developers. The URL will likely be something like developers.fedoraproject.org. This isn't a generic, front-page site. Given the targeted nature of it, I think it's perfectly fine to say Fedora is built for developers. I mean, you wouldn't want a developer coming to this page and seeing Fedora is built for everyone and then a bunch of text explaining that. josh -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Fedora developer portal - proof of concept
Hi Fedora devels and other folks, Adam Samalik and me we create a first proof of concept Fedora Developer Portal. Testing instance is already available here [1]. * **Fedora Developer Portal* is a new place for developers and not only for them, providing information about tools, projects, technologies and other features that are packaged in Fedora. This page would be mainly used for developers building on Fedora and help them with tools. But of course other users can use main technologies developed on Fedora. It is plan to have reference to this portal from [2]. What is possible structure of Fedora Developer Portal is on [3] page under section *'Structure'. *If anyone is interested with helping us to create this portal please clone repository [4] and provide any contents. We will review it together with other colleagues and add it to this Page. UX design is going to be discussed and reviewed by Mairin. Thanks for your help. Some discussion about this portal is on EnvStack mailing list. What Fedora developer portal should cover at all is here [3] and can be extended of course. GitHub repository for content is [4]. GitHub repository for website is [5]. Feel free to send us any comment or improvements. We would like to improve Fedora for developers. Just contents are missing. [1] https://developer-phracek.rhcloud.com/ [2] https://getfedora.org/ [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer [4] https://github.com/developer-portal/content [5] https://github.com/developer-portal/website -- Petr Hracek Software Engineer Developer Experience Red Hat, Inc Mob: +420777056169 email: phra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
