Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
Michal Schmidt wrote: > On 05/14/2012 10:11 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: >> Miloslav Trmač wrote: >>> I'm pretty sure that naming conflicts in /usr/bin have happened before >>> in Fedora, I'm not sure how they were resolved. >> >> Even in a relatively minimal system, I see many programs installed >> in both /sbin and /bin, though none seem to conflict: >> [...] >> Odd that some point from /bin to /sbin, and others from /sbin to /bin. >> Some use relative symlinks, others use absolute. > > These are not comparable to the "lid" situation. They are either: > - programs using consolehelper, the legacy privilege escalation >mechanism, which depends on one of the names being a symlink to >consolehelper and the other name being the program itself, >or > - cases where the program historically lived in one directory, then >was moved to the other and a symlink in the old directory was added >for backwards compat. But it is the same program. > > They're not comparable to the "lid" name conflict between two different > programs. Thanks for confirming my "none seem to conflict" comment. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:07:40PM +0200, Jim Meyering wrote: > > Put it this way: in the package review process, > *must* the name conflict be cause for rejection? > A direct file conflict would definitely be a blocker ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Conflicts ) The case where one command is in /usr/sbin and another is in /usr/bin seems to violate the spirit of the Guidelines but not the letter. I would hope that a reviewer would try to resolve the conflict as the guidelines advise anyway. We typically have people first attempt to talk to both upstreams and get one or the other to rename. Failing that, we normally make a decision.for the Fedora package and try to coordinate that with other distros (or at least make other distros aware of it). "We" in this case is preferentially the package maintainers but if they can't agree, then the FPC examines it. This case seems like it will be pretty tough to make a decision on should it come to the FPC as both programs have a long history. id-utils' longer history is somewhat persuasive in one direction but libuser's longer history in Fedora is persuasive in the other. The compromise where a lid script that asks the user to create an alias sounds suboptimal but may be the best choice in the end. The FPC would consider it along with other proposals for how to deal with it. -Toshio pgpndWrGC7LRX.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
2012-05-11 12:07 keltezéssel, Jim Meyering írta: Pádraig Brady wrote: id-utils (1996) seems to predate libuser (2001), so it's unfortunate that libuser picked the clashing name. It goes back pretty far. From idutils.texi's history node: First posted to comp.sources.unix in September 1987 under the name "id". "mkid version 2" was posted to alt.sources in 1990. Renamed to id-utils in 1996. The honest solution would be that libuser renames it utility to luserid. ;-) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On 05/14/2012 10:11 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: Miloslav Trmač wrote: I'm pretty sure that naming conflicts in /usr/bin have happened before in Fedora, I'm not sure how they were resolved. Even in a relatively minimal system, I see many programs installed in both /sbin and /bin, though none seem to conflict: [...] Odd that some point from /bin to /sbin, and others from /sbin to /bin. Some use relative symlinks, others use absolute. These are not comparable to the "lid" situation. They are either: - programs using consolehelper, the legacy privilege escalation mechanism, which depends on one of the names being a symlink to consolehelper and the other name being the program itself, or - cases where the program historically lived in one directory, then was moved to the other and a symlink in the old directory was added for backwards compat. But it is the same program. They're not comparable to the "lid" name conflict between two different programs. Michal -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
Miloslav Trmač wrote: > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: >> Miloslav Trmač wrote: >>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. id-utils has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. >>> >>> Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, >>> one or the other will have to change >> >> Technically there is no need to change a name. >> In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin >> and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? > > Apart from being confusing, it effectively overrides libuser's use of lid. > >> Sure, a different solution would be better, but renaming a command like >> idutils' lid (in use by some for >15 years) does not seem reasonable. > Right. > >> Any opinions on whether this issue is big enough to NAK >> a review request or addition of the package to Fedora? > I'm pretty sure that naming conflicts in /usr/bin have happened before > in Fedora, I'm not sure how they were resolved. Even in a relatively minimal system, I see many programs installed in both /sbin and /bin, though none seem to conflict: $ comm -12 <(cd /sbin;env ls -1) <(cd /bin;env ls -1) authconfig authconfig-gtk authconfig-tui dracut eject halt hddtemp makemap mock ping6 poweroff preupgrade preupgrade-cli rdistd reboot setup system-config-authentication system-config-keyboard system-config-network system-config-network-cmd tmpwatch tracepath tracepath6 udevadm Odd that some point from /bin to /sbin, and others from /sbin to /bin. Some use relative symlinks, others use absolute. Compare the output of these commands: cd /sbin; ls -og $(comm -12 <(cd /bin;env ls -1) <(cd /sbin;env ls -1)) cd /bin; ls -og $(comm -12 <(cd /bin;env ls -1) <(cd /sbin;env ls -1)) ... > Anyway, we can't please both sets of users at the same time. If the > above-mentioned reference to previous naming conflicts in Fedora does > not result in a generally-acceptable solution, what about the > following? > lid is renamed in both packages to lid-libuser and lid-idutils (or > something), respectively. Both packages ship an alias script > somewhere in /etc. A new package is created, providing a /usr/bin/lid > script, that instructs the user to add the alias to their ~/.bashrc, > and fails.[1] > Mirek If cohabitation is not acceptable, that is a fine compromise that would let us move forward. However, it should suggest more than an alias/function addition, because those are not desirable/useful for non-command-line use e.g., via other scripts that invoke lid. Instead, suggesting to install a lid wrapper via one of these commands: f=~/bin/lid printf '#!/bin/sh\nexec lid-idutils "$@"\n' > $f && chmod a+x $f printf '#!/bin/sh\nexec lid-libuser "$@"\n' > $f && chmod a+x $f [ or use f=/usr/local/bin/lid for a system-wide choice. ] I would also request that users who encounter the failing "lid" script write to e.g., bug-idut...@gnu.org to inform us of their choice (either way), so that eventually, if we get stats to support a move and everyone agrees it's ok, we could phase out the always-failing lid script. > [1] The script could also automatically run one of the lid's, if there > were only one installed - but then merely installing a new package > could break user's workflow, which I think is undesirable. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
Greg McGary wrote: It would be great if GNU id-utils could be included in future Fedora releases. please, add it to *Package maintainers wishlist* : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintainers_wishlist -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: > Miloslav Trmač wrote: >> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: >>> Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the >>> same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. >>> id-utils >>> has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. >> >> Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, >> one or the other will have to change > > Technically there is no need to change a name. > In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin > and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? Apart from being confusing, it effectively overrides libuser's use of lid. > Sure, a different solution would be better, but renaming a command like > idutils' lid (in use by some for >15 years) does not seem reasonable. Right. > Any opinions on whether this issue is big enough to NAK > a review request or addition of the package to Fedora? I'm pretty sure that naming conflicts in /usr/bin have happened before in Fedora, I'm not sure how they were resolved. >> and the only data I've seen is >> debian's popcon, which indicated that libuser is used more widely. > > That counts how often the package is installed. Note that libuser > is installed primarily for its library, whereas idutils is installed > solely for the use of its programs. True. >>> This conflict is exceedingly minor since /usr/sbin/lid is only usable by >>> root. >>> Ordinary users who try it get this: >>> >>> $ lid foo >>> Error initializing libuser: could not open configuration file >>> /etc/default/useradd': Permission denied. >> >> Ordinary users can set up a different configuration to run >> unprivileged (in particular, to manage a LDAP user database). > > My guess is that unprivileged use of libuser's "lid" is unusual. Anecdotal evidence from bug reports is that if people use the libuser command-line tools at all, they use them mainly for LDAP. Anyway, we can't please both sets of users at the same time. If the above-mentioned reference to previous naming conflicts in Fedora does not result in a generally-acceptable solution, what about the following? lid is renamed in both packages to lid-libuser and lid-idutils (or something), respectively. Both packages ship an alias script somewhere in /etc. A new package is created, providing a /usr/bin/lid script, that instructs the user to add the alias to their ~/.bashrc, and fails.[1] Mirek [1] The script could also automatically run one of the lid's, if there were only one installed - but then merely installing a new package could break user's workflow, which I think is undesirable. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
Pádraig Brady wrote: > On 05/11/2012 09:14 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: >> Miloslav Trmač wrote: >>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. id-utils has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. >>> >>> Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, >>> one or the other will have to change >> >> Technically there is no need to change a name. >> In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin >> and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? >> >> Sure, a different solution would be better, but renaming a command like >> idutils' lid (in use by some for >15 years) does not seem reasonable. >> >> Any opinions on whether this issue is big enough to NAK >> a review request or addition of the package to Fedora? > > Well /usr/sbin is proposed to be merged with /usr/bin in Fedora 18 I note that it's not yet on the approved feature list: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/FeatureList > Anyway I think having the same name in different paths is too problematic. I agree that it is sub-optimal, but it seems slightly better than a renaming. > id-utils (1996) seems to predate libuser (2001), so it's > unfortunate that libuser picked the clashing name. It goes back pretty far. From idutils.texi's history node: First posted to comp.sources.unix in September 1987 under the name "id". "mkid version 2" was posted to alt.sources in 1990. Renamed to id-utils in 1996. > I'm not sure what to suggest though. > The simplest is to rename the id-utils lid on fedora, > which will not break anything, but does introduce awkwardness I'm reluctant to make such a change (be it upstream or just for Fedora) because it would break any existing script/alias that invokes lid, introducing a Fedora-specific incompatibility with upstream and with all other existing installations. For those who use idutils, I suspect "lid" is second in use-frequency only to "gid", so muscle memory is an issue, too. > in future script portability, needing something like: > lid-utils > /dev/null && LID=lid-utils || LID=lid > /etc/alternatives probably isn't appropriate as I'm > assuming the commands do not overlap in functionality. Right. Regarding functionality, they do not overlap at all. Put it this way: in the package review process, *must* the name conflict be cause for rejection? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On 05/11/2012 09:14 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: > Miloslav Trmač wrote: >> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: >>> Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the >>> same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. >>> id-utils >>> has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. >> >> Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, >> one or the other will have to change > > Technically there is no need to change a name. > In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin > and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? > > Sure, a different solution would be better, but renaming a command like > idutils' lid (in use by some for >15 years) does not seem reasonable. > > Any opinions on whether this issue is big enough to NAK > a review request or addition of the package to Fedora? Well /usr/sbin is proposed to be merged with /usr/bin in Fedora 18 Anyway I think having the same name in different paths is too problematic. id-utils (1996) seems to predate libuser (2001), so it's unfortunate that libuser picked the clashing name. I'm not sure what to suggest though. The simplest is to rename the id-utils lid on fedora, which will not break anything, but does introduce awkwardness in future script portability, needing something like: lid-utils > /dev/null && LID=lid-utils || LID=lid /etc/alternatives probably isn't appropriate as I'm assuming the commands do not overlap in functionality. cheers, Pádraig. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On 05/11/2012 10:14 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: Technically there is no need to change a name. In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? "Technically" there is no problem (at least until we decide remove the distinction between sbin and bin and unify them), but it is confusing to have a command that runs completely different programs based on the $PATH order. Michal -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
Miloslav Trmač wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: >> Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the >> same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. id-utils >> has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. > > Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, > one or the other will have to change Technically there is no need to change a name. In Debian, one can have two lid programs installed, one in /usr/bin and the other in /usr/sbin[*], so why not in Fedora? Sure, a different solution would be better, but renaming a command like idutils' lid (in use by some for >15 years) does not seem reasonable. Any opinions on whether this issue is big enough to NAK a review request or addition of the package to Fedora? > and the only data I've seen is > debian's popcon, which indicated that libuser is used more widely. That counts how often the package is installed. Note that libuser is installed primarily for its library, whereas idutils is installed solely for the use of its programs. Of course, popcon says little about how much libuser's rarely-useful-to-non-root "lid" program is actually run. >> This conflict is exceedingly minor since /usr/sbin/lid is only usable by >> root. >> Ordinary users who try it get this: >> >> $ lid foo >> Error initializing libuser: could not open configuration file >> /etc/default/useradd': Permission denied. > > Ordinary users can set up a different configuration to run > unprivileged (in particular, to manage a LDAP user database). My guess is that unprivileged use of libuser's "lid" is unusual. Jim [*] Confirmed: libuser and idutils packages coexist just fine on Debian: debian# type -a lid lid is /usr/sbin/lid lid is /usr/bin/lid -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Greg McGary wrote: > Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the > same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. id-utils > has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. Yeah, that's come up before. There's no great solution I'm afraid, one or the other will have to change - and the only data I've seen is debian's popcon, which indicated that libuser is used more widely. > This conflict is exceedingly minor since /usr/sbin/lid is only usable by root. > Ordinary users who try it get this: > > $ lid foo > Error initializing libuser: could not open configuration file > `/etc/default/useradd': Permission denied. Ordinary users can set up a different configuration to run unprivileged (in particular, to manage a LDAP user database). Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Please add GNU id-utils to Fedora
It would be great if GNU id-utils could be included in future Fedora releases. id-utils is a long-standing GNU package that creates a database of program identifiers, then allows queries from the command line or from an editor. Its primary virtue is speed. Think of it as an optimized "grep" which goes fast because the database tells it exactly which files to search. It really shines on very large source-code trees, giving instant results where grep would get bogged-down in tons of extra I/O on files that don't contain hits. id-utils also benefits from already having Jim Meyering as its maintainer. Minor conflict: the name of one of id-utils main commands "lid" is also the same as an existing command, though installed in a different place. id-utils has /usr/bin/lid, while libuser has /usr/sbin/lid. This conflict is exceedingly minor since /usr/sbin/lid is only usable by root. Ordinary users who try it get this: $ lid foo Error initializing libuser: could not open configuration file `/etc/default/useradd': Permission denied. If there is a strict prohibition against such name conflicts, then I suggest that libuser should change "lid" to "lugid". I speculate that the admin users of libuser are far fewer than potential general user base of id-utils, which is a program-development tool. Greg -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
