Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:30:04 -0800 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 20:20 +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0500 john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. What he said -- forcing a root pw or creating users is going to be a PITA for us. Please add a way to disable it, preferably using kickstart. You're aware that this is already the case in F18 and all previous releases, right? You can't get out of anaconda without setting a root password. He said root password OR users, not root password AND users. Oops, sorry! Misunderstood that part. As you can tell, I need it mostly in kickstart, have not yet run tests without that ;-) --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 03:47:33PM -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. So far I just skipped firstboot by using tricks, like telling it I was going to configure a network server and then just canceling. But it would be nicer if I could simply skip it. Could such use cases not be built into firstboot? -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. Could such use cases not be built into firstboot? Right you are, see another proposed feature that works with FreeIPA and AD: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AnacondaRealmIntegration Martin -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On 01/30/2013 10:08 AM, Martin Sivak wrote: Hi, When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. Could such use cases not be built into firstboot? Right you are, see another proposed feature that works with FreeIPA and AD: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AnacondaRealmIntegration In rawhide I see that realmd is constantly running how can I turn it off? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/29/2013 10:40 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 09:15:05AM -0500, Martin Sivak wrote: the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. That's not necessarily true; please don't force the creation of users or setting of a root password. In what situation would you ever have a system that requires neither users nor root access? Or are you saying that root access would be via SSH keys? I think it's probably a valid feature request to be able to specify in a kickstart that the system should have no root password, but I can't really think of an example where you are doing an attended install and you wouldn't want at least one of the set of: 1) A local user 2) Joining a domain for centralized users 3) A root password -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlEJGbIACgkQeiVVYja6o6MDEwCgozFnTaPnXdsBD8aBZUmysoHC l5kAnAkOkij35nAOvLXiu0EKDbgsv5py =musg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/30/2013 05:08 AM, Martin Sivak wrote: Hi, When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. Could such use cases not be built into firstboot? Right you are, see another proposed feature that works with FreeIPA and AD: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AnacondaRealmIntegration You're confusing what he said here. That feature is great for joining an existing domain. Simo was saying that firstboot gets in the way if he is actually setting up the domain controller (which would have no local users besides root). That said, the current firstboot allows you to just walk through and skip user creation, last I checked. So I'm not sure why you need to cancel it. If you just don't enter anything in the username and password fields, it doesn't stop you. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlEJGnEACgkQeiVVYja6o6OCOwCfaUu5jfRDcg1SMe+qp6v0jNp4 h/0An0uFRn1/ExV09xfhqrSgw47Jcdbq =jJBJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
From: Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com That said, the current firstboot allows you to just walk through and skip user creation, last I checked. So I'm not sure why you need to cancel it. If you just don't enter anything in the username and password fields, it doesn't stop you. Exactly right, and that's all I'm asking for out of the new firstboot -- preferably with a keystroke or click from the initial firstboot dialog. I just want to avoid what happened for a few old Fedora releases (10-13 ish) where you were not allowed to skip user creation/joining a domain short of having to go out out of your way by booting into a non-default run-level, removing firstboot, etc. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, the this should be not a problem. The intended logic here is requiring enabled root OR user(s). We might add ssh keys as a valid option if needed too (but I am not sure about entering the key, typing it manually is probably not a good idea). Moreover, initial-setup has a working quit button. Martin - Original Message - From: Stephen Gallagher sgall...@redhat.com That said, the current firstboot allows you to just walk through and skip user creation, last I checked. So I'm not sure why you need to cancel it. If you just don't enter anything in the username and password fields, it doesn't stop you. Exactly right, and that's all I'm asking for out of the new firstboot -- preferably with a keystroke or click from the initial firstboot dialog. I just want to avoid what happened for a few old Fedora releases (10-13 ish) where you were not allowed to skip user creation/joining a domain short of having to go out out of your way by booting into a non-default run-level, removing firstboot, etc. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 08:01:38AM -0500, Stephen Gallagher wrote: In what situation would you ever have a system that requires neither users nor root access? Or are you saying that root access would be via SSH keys? I think it's probably a valid feature request to be able to Root access via SSH key is one case, yeah. The other is with cloud-init, where the user is created automatically at boot time using information from the metadata source. Either of these can be covered with a kickstart directive. For the cloud images, and anywhere else where size matters, I'd also like to avoid pulling in a big one-time-setup infrastructure which won't be used, so hopefully the dependency integration won't be so tight that the package itself can't be avoided. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On 01/30/2013 12:14 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 01/30/2013 10:08 AM, Martin Sivak wrote: Hi, When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. Could such use cases not be built into firstboot? Right you are, see another proposed feature that works with FreeIPA and AD: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/AnacondaRealmIntegration In rawhide I see that realmd is constantly running how can I turn it off? That's a bug. Could you file one in in RHBZ, and we can try and figure it out together? Stef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi Adam, it will use Anaconda screens that already exist (like Time and Date, Root password) or are planned for F19 (User creation). So the project itself does not require any heavy coding. The 3rd party screens are out of our hands, but are not necessary for the system to work. The current firstboot does very little, it can create user and somehow update date and time. But yes, if we fail to accomplish this, the old firstboot is not going away, because it already does all the mandatory tasks. Martin - Original Message - On Mon, 2013-01-28 at 11:46 +, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. == Detailed description == Since the Anaconda installer moved to the NewUI Hub and Spoke concept, we can reuse much of it's architecture and screens in the after reboot configuration utility -- initial-setup. So the idea behind the firstboot replacement is that we will have a new app that will use the same Hub and Spoke model and the same API as Anaconda. This will give us the possibility of letting the user configure his system either during the package extraction or after reboot (important for OEMs). It will also allow other teams (power management, security team, IPA) to prepare their own screens for Anaconda and initial-setup and so further enhancing the user experience. Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. The old Firstboot will still stay as a fallback in case somebody still has his old Firstboot plugins he needs to use. I am concerned about the timeframe on this. The completion percentage seems rather optimistic: Percentage of completion: 70% (the engine is working, package undergoing review, no configuration screens present) To me, 'initial framework coding is complete but we haven't written any of the code that actually does stuff yet' is a long way short of 70%. Especially since this is just re-using anaconda's hub/spoke setup, as I read it, so presumably implementing the 'engine' was the *easy* bit of the work. Does FESCo agree that 70% is a realistic completion percentage for the current state? Has a reliable evaluation of the likely amount of work involved here, and the necessary time, been completed? At the least I'd suggest we take care to make sure the old firstboot works in the F19 context as part of testing, and Martin prioritizes fixes for it if we find any, so the contingency plan is viable if work on the new one is not sufficiently complete by Beta. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, no, system-config-* is not going to be used anywhere. Martin - Original Message - Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com ... Firstboot currently depends on system-config-users, system-config-authentication and system-config-date, causing them to be included in a new Fedora installation. Those of us in the GNOME community have been working to eliminate the need for these utilities for some time. Will your proposal enable firstboot to lose its dependencies on them? Allan -- IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. Martin - Original Message - From: Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Please consider in the development of this to provide a simple means to bypass this as easily as is currently possible with firstboot. Our use case rarely involves making a custom kickstart (where we could exclude this), but we do use the standard install image either in Mimimal mode or with a user's preferred DE and then we have puppet (or ansible or the like) do the rest, including authentication set up, etc. I only mention this because in a Fedora of long ago, firstboot insisted on creating a local user and it was obnoxious to have to boot into single user mode first just so that firstboot could be removed, puppet installed and the rest of the set up be automated as desired. Firstboot is great for those who need it, but please remember that not all need it. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, yes, all the screens are shared with the Anaconda installer and the internal data structure is closely tied to kickstart. This allows us to configure almost everything using kickstart and then dump the final kickstart for the admin to see (as we always did). Headless is a bit harder, someone has to setup the users and root password. The init script supports it properly on s390, but not on the other platforms yet. How do you think we should detect headless mode? If the system was installed using serial console, systemd will ensure that the text interface is accessible there (the default terminal device) I hope. Martin - Original Message - On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:46:40AM +, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. Will it be possible to do all of the things within kickstart? Will there be a text-mode interface? Will the firstboot system be able to detect headless boots and do something sensible, or will such systems be stuck waiting for someone to attach and poke buttons? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi, this has nothing to do with Gnome. Initial-setup will prepare system-wide settings regardless on the WM as firstboot did. The only difference here (which is not implemented yet) is to skip the user creation screens in case GDM is the login manager and Gnome asks for it. In that case GIE part of GDM will setup the users instead of firstboot. Rest of the screens will be shown as usual. Martin - Original Message - On 01/28/2013 11:46 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. Will this work with other *DE's then Gnome? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Answer below :) On 2013-01-29 15:20, Martin Sivak wrote: Hi, yes, all the screens are shared with the Anaconda installer and the internal data structure is closely tied to kickstart. This allows us to configure almost everything using kickstart and then dump the final kickstart for the admin to see (as we always did). Headless is a bit harder, someone has to setup the users and root password. The init script supports it properly on s390, but not on the other platforms yet. How do you think we should detect headless mode? If the system was installed using serial console, systemd will ensure that the text interface is accessible there (the default terminal device) I hope. Martin - Original Message - On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:46:40AM +, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. Will it be possible to do all of the things within kickstart? Will there be a text-mode interface? [cut] Please don't top-post [1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 09:15:05AM -0500, Martin Sivak wrote: the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. That's not necessarily true; please don't force the creation of users or setting of a root password. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote: Please don't top-post [1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message It's amusing that it doesn't explain why. It just says don't do it. Top posting fails worse than bottom posting when what's quoted is poorly trimmed bottom posting. The lack of trim is common in both styles. But if done aggressively, I don't see the problem, e.g. had I top posted in this case, it would not be a real problem (vs an imaginary one). I'm further amused by the subsequent Wikipedia link that characterizes most complainers of top posting as old Usenet epoch whiners, with 1990's era clients that predate the sane ability to consistently top post. And that if everyone top posted, things would be work better for all of us, since all modern devices and clients do it this way, and for valid reasons. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Hi Martin, Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com wrote: no, system-config-* is not going to be used anywhere. Can you expand on that? Is the plan to remove the existing dependencies on system-config-*? Allan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On 01/29/2013 05:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote: Please don't top-post [1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message It's amusing that it doesn't explain why. It just says don't do it. Top posting fails worse than bottom posting when what's quoted is poorly trimmed bottom posting. The lack of trim is common in both styles. But if done aggressively, I don't see the problem, e.g. had I top posted in this case, it would not be a real problem (vs an imaginary one). I'm further amused by the subsequent Wikipedia link that characterizes most complainers of top posting as old Usenet epoch whiners, with 1990's era clients that predate the sane ability to consistently top post. And that if everyone top posted, things would be work better for all of us, since all modern devices and clients do it this way, and for valid reasons. I assume you have learned to read like the rest of the world then you should understand why this is done this way even thou apparently programmers cant writer email application that behave correctly. JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Jan 29, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote something about learning to read like the rest of the world. Indeed, I did learn, like most of the rest of the world today, to simply reply. And I learned to occasionally establish context with paraphrasing, and the occasional quote, when needed. Wholesale hand duplication of someone's letter to me, while replying to them inline, or at the bottom, would have been ridiculous. For many hundreds of years, all over the world, readers had good enough short term memory that merely receiving a reply was sufficient for effective communication, even among multiple parties. In effect, for most of human history, most of the world historically top posts. What has encouraged bottom posting and in-line response, is the perverted email client automatic quoting feature, when replying; not that bottom posting is any more or less, sensible than top posting. Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On 2013-01-29 19:35, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 29, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson johan...@gmail.com wrote something about learning to read like the rest of the world. Indeed, I did learn, like most of the rest of the world today, to simply reply. And I learned to occasionally establish context with paraphrasing, and the occasional quote, when needed. Wholesale hand duplication of someone's letter to me, while replying to them inline, or at the bottom, would have been ridiculous. For many hundreds of years, all over the world, readers had good enough short term memory that merely receiving a reply was sufficient for effective communication, even among multiple parties. In effect, for most of human history, most of the world historically top posts. What has encouraged bottom posting and in-line response, is the perverted email client automatic quoting feature, when replying; not that bottom posting is any more or less, sensible than top posting. Chris Murphy It's all my fault, I know, but still: the subject of this thread is about firstboot. I dropped a short note about the agreements and guidelines we have on this list, hopefully seen as a friendly reminder - I had no other intent. If someone wants to start a new thread about the guidelines for making a reply on fedora-devel, please do. But I suggest that we close this threadlet instead of hijacking the subject to discuss something enterily different. --alec -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0500 john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. What he said -- forcing a root pw or creating users is going to be a PITA for us. Please add a way to disable it, preferably using kickstart. --Stijn -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Stijn Hoop st...@sandcat.nl wrote on 01/29/2013 14:20:50: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0500 john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. What he said -- forcing a root pw or creating users is going to be a PITA for us. Please add a way to disable it, preferably using kickstart. --Stijn I agree that it should be possible to easily disable firstboot in the kickstart, but I also believe that one should be able to easily sidestep firstboot after a regular install. I don't have the time to create a kickstart for every conceivable use we have of Fedora here (although that would clearly be my preference because then puppet would be built in and start itself as our firstboot and every boot). Presently I give users the Fedora image and then direct them to a document that explains how to install and start puppet which does the rest of the setup for them. It works very smoothly this way, but only if there are very few steps between finish the install and starting puppet. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
point of style (was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot)
On 01/29/2013 12:31 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: On Jan 29, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Alec Leamas leamas.a...@gmail.com wrote: Please don't top-post [1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#If_You_Are_Replying_to_a_Message It's amusing that it doesn't explain why. It just says don't do it. Top posting fails worse than bottom posting when what's quoted is poorly trimmed bottom posting. The lack of trim is common in both styles. But if done aggressively, I don't see the problem, e.g. had I top posted in this case, it would not be a real problem (vs an imaginary one). There's an old saying that 'punctuality is the courtesy of the kings'. Nowadays, careful editing of correspondence seems to have become as precious as the courtesy of the kings. It is hard to follow a message that has lots of boilerplate quoted or cut-and-paste material, with interesting, relevant content hidden at the end. In extreme, it makes a mockery of the common recommendation for bottom-posting --- if the quoted material is dumped indiscriminately in front of the new content, it would actually be less hard to read if it was top-posted, especially on the mobile devices that more of us use nowadays. In other words, literate persons are expected to weave the trimmed quotes and their responses into a coherent message --- that's the true meaning of bottom-posting. In contrast, 'top-posting' implies giving up on trimming and editing for context. The point here is that careful editing makes huge difference to the reader. Sure, it takes time and effort --- as Seneca said, I apologize for this very long letter but I was out of time --- but the goal of writing is to communicate, so if it is worth doing at all, it is worth doing well. Please forgive this older colleague for droning on. I thought it could strengthen or inspire someone's resolve to keep up the style, and so would not be impolite to send it to the list even though most postings here are usefully edited. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 14:28 -0500, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: Stijn Hoop st...@sandcat.nl wrote on 01/29/2013 14:20:50: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0500 john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. What he said -- forcing a root pw or creating users is going to be a PITA for us. Please add a way to disable it, preferably using kickstart. --Stijn I agree that it should be possible to easily disable firstboot in the kickstart, but I also believe that one should be able to easily sidestep firstboot after a regular install. I don't have the time to create a kickstart for every conceivable use we have of Fedora here (although that would clearly be my preference because then puppet would be built in and start itself as our firstboot and every boot). Presently I give users the Fedora image and then direct them to a document that explains how to install and start puppet which does the rest of the setup for them. It works very smoothly this way, but only if there are very few steps between finish the install and starting puppet. When I install a freeipa server I do not want firstboot because I am not going to create local users anyway. I am going to install freeipa and then create users in LDAP. So far I just skipped firstboot by using tricks, like telling it I was going to configure a network server and then just canceling. But it would be nicer if I could simply skip it. Simo. -- Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 15:47 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote: So far I just skipped firstboot by using tricks, like telling it I was going to configure a network server and then just canceling. But it would be nicer if I could simply skip it. Current firstboot does not run if you boot to anything below graphical.target (for old-schoolers - anything below runlevel 5). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 20:20 +0100, Stijn Hoop wrote: On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0500 john.flor...@dart.biz wrote: From: Martin Sivak msi...@redhat.com the tool will be started using systemd unit file which can be disabled. It will have to be explicit (even minimal install needs users or root password), but we can figure something out. In my experience, root password is handled by the installer and firstboot is not needed to configure users if puppet is being used to configure them. (Also there are many Fedora systems out there having only root and the system accounts -- i.e., no real users.) Having to disable the firstbooot systemd unit file just to get to a root prompt so that puppet can be installed would be a PITA. The whole idea of puppet is to avoid having to such things because it can automate them. What he said -- forcing a root pw or creating users is going to be a PITA for us. Please add a way to disable it, preferably using kickstart. You're aware that this is already the case in F18 and all previous releases, right? You can't get out of anaconda without setting a root password. He said root password OR users, not root password AND users. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
= Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. == Detailed description == Since the Anaconda installer moved to the NewUI Hub and Spoke concept, we can reuse much of it's architecture and screens in the after reboot configuration utility -- initial-setup. So the idea behind the firstboot replacement is that we will have a new app that will use the same Hub and Spoke model and the same API as Anaconda. This will give us the possibility of letting the user configure his system either during the package extraction or after reboot (important for OEMs). It will also allow other teams (power management, security team, IPA) to prepare their own screens for Anaconda and initial-setup and so further enhancing the user experience. Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. The old Firstboot will still stay as a fallback in case somebody still has his old Firstboot plugins he needs to use. ___ devel-announce mailing list devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On 01/28/2013 11:46 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. Will this work with other *DE's then Gnome? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2013 07:16 AM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 01/28/2013 11:46 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. Will this work with other *DE's then Gnome? JBG I agree. I want a clear explanation of where the separation is between new firstboot and GNOME Initial Experience. If there are pieces that GIE does that firstboot does not, I want details on what the other DEs (or DMs) need to do to implement them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.13 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlEGfCQACgkQeiVVYja6o6Mx6QCfSU+RMF4b5Z4ZWRQMuhujCEh0 zAMAoIm+IKMoOdRvFfDpXkuFJCP6rO+r =cNaj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:46:40AM +, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. Will it be possible to do all of the things within kickstart? Will there be a text-mode interface? Will the firstboot system be able to detect headless boots and do something sensible, or will such systems be stuck waiting for someone to attach and poke buttons? -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Monday 28 of January 2013 12:16:54 Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 01/28/2013 11:46 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. Will this work with other *DE's then Gnome? My understanding is - it will. This is not GIE replacing firstboot but firstboot offereing communication channel between Anaconda, Firstboot and GIE. So as required modules exists for Anaconda/Firstboot, there's no problem for other non-Gnome DE's. But GIE could opt-out from using Anaconda/Firstboot for example for user creation and offer own dialog. At least, I hope it will work this way from all the discussions and nothing changed ;-) Jaroslav JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
From: Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Please consider in the development of this to provide a simple means to bypass this as easily as is currently possible with firstboot. Our use case rarely involves making a custom kickstart (where we could exclude this), but we do use the standard install image either in Mimimal mode or with a user's preferred DE and then we have puppet (or ansible or the like) do the rest, including authentication set up, etc. I only mention this because in a Fedora of long ago, firstboot insisted on creating a local user and it was obnoxious to have to boot into single user mode first just so that firstboot could be removed, puppet installed and the rest of the set up be automated as desired. Firstboot is great for those who need it, but please remember that not all need it. -- John Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
Jaroslav Reznik jrez...@redhat.com wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com ... Firstboot currently depends on system-config-users, system-config-authentication and system-config-date, causing them to be included in a new Fedora installation. Those of us in the GNOME community have been working to eliminate the need for these utilities for some time. Will your proposal enable firstboot to lose its dependencies on them? Allan -- IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: New firstboot
On Mon, 2013-01-28 at 11:46 +, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: = Features/NewFirstboot = https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewFirstboot Feature owner(s): Martin Sivák msi...@redhat.com This feature proposes new initial setup application with better integration to the NewUI anaconda and to Gnome Initial Experience. == Detailed description == Since the Anaconda installer moved to the NewUI Hub and Spoke concept, we can reuse much of it's architecture and screens in the after reboot configuration utility -- initial-setup. So the idea behind the firstboot replacement is that we will have a new app that will use the same Hub and Spoke model and the same API as Anaconda. This will give us the possibility of letting the user configure his system either during the package extraction or after reboot (important for OEMs). It will also allow other teams (power management, security team, IPA) to prepare their own screens for Anaconda and initial-setup and so further enhancing the user experience. Anaconda, initial-setup and Gnome Inital Experience will communicate to ensure the screens are not shown multiple times. So for example the root password setup or user creation process will be done only in one place, depending on the installed system. The old Firstboot will still stay as a fallback in case somebody still has his old Firstboot plugins he needs to use. I am concerned about the timeframe on this. The completion percentage seems rather optimistic: Percentage of completion: 70% (the engine is working, package undergoing review, no configuration screens present) To me, 'initial framework coding is complete but we haven't written any of the code that actually does stuff yet' is a long way short of 70%. Especially since this is just re-using anaconda's hub/spoke setup, as I read it, so presumably implementing the 'engine' was the *easy* bit of the work. Does FESCo agree that 70% is a realistic completion percentage for the current state? Has a reliable evaluation of the likely amount of work involved here, and the necessary time, been completed? At the least I'd suggest we take care to make sure the old firstboot works in the F19 context as part of testing, and Martin prioritizes fixes for it if we find any, so the contingency plan is viable if work on the new one is not sufficiently complete by Beta. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
