Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 9:15 AM, drago01 wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 6:42 AM, tim.laurid...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > Linux is about choices > > No it isn't: > http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html > > (I do disagree with Kevin though). > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > Choices have consequences, who have to live with, so having choices it not the same as you can get everything you want :) If people choose to spend time to build Fedora on a arch and getting the work done, it is not up to me to judge there work to be a waste of time, because I don't care about this arch. Fedora is made by contributors and they decide what they want to spend there time on, but they don't decide what other contributor will spend there time on. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 06:42:45AM +0200, tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) > > based smartphone: > > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ > > > > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat > > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still > > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core > > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. > > > > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of > > the > > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > > architectures are for. > > > >Kevin Kofler > > > > -- > > devel mailing list > > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > > > > Why do we waste time on Linux, when we all just can use Windows, the > desktop market leader > > > Linux is about choices and is driven by people by by people with passions > for something, even if not what every body else think is importent. > So telling people to don't waste time on something they care about, Is > wrong in so many ways. Damn right! I'm running Linux (not Fedora, sadly) on my OpenRISC FPGA. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines. Tiny program with many powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc. http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On 06/14/2012 07:57 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for performance increases. There are three axis to this 3D space: performance, energy efficiency (MIPS per Watt or, rather, useful computation per Joule), and price. Intel did wonderfully on the first axis, but lags ARM persistently on the remaining two, and ARM seem to be catching up on performance. Watch the price, especially. Low end ARM Cortex M chips cost less than one dollar, and require just few passive components in a simplistic but complete running system. Raspberry Pi runs Linux for a total system cost of $15 ($20? $30). The goal here is computers so cheap that if one falls behind a really big and heavy desk that's hard to move, you sigh and get another unit. Seriously, only at this price point it'll be practical to deploy massive amounts of computers into scenarios like 'white goods' and party photo-balloons and such, and Linux wants to be there, so it's worth to pay attention to ARM. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On 06/14/2012 07:57 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Hi, I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) based smartphone: http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ So even smartphones are going x86 now. It's probably best not to extrapolate the extent of a trend from a single point. -- Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
- Original Message - > Hi, > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 > (Atom) > based smartphone: > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ > > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to > defeat > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are > still > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's > single-core > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. > > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end > architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a > need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid > of the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. Intel promises mobile CPUs for several years and it's still a huge fail... My Intel based tablet has a fan (and it's not fun). I have to admit, I prefer x86 arch as it's easier to develop/work with but not in mobile world yet. R. > Kevin Kofler > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On 15 June 2012 01:57, Kevin Kofler wrote: > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. Servers are moving to ARM as well, HP and Dell for example: http://h17007.www1.hp.com/us/en/iss/110111.aspx http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter/high-performance-computing/b/weblog/archive/2012/06/01/better-density-less-power-consumption-at-heart-of-dell-s-arm-based-ecosystem-building-program.aspx We could guess RHEL 7 will build on the ARM development in Fedora. And I personally would really like to run something that's not x86. Regards, --Simone -- You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore (R. W. Emerson). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:08 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 01:57:18AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > >> So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture >> filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for >> performance increases. We should rather support only one primary >> architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need >> for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of the >> legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary >> architectures are for. > > If Fedora ARM is currently causing you problems then please do point out > the specifics. But if it's not, then why do you expect it to get any > worse if it becomes a primary architecture? I don't see why it would have as we've not reported a single bug to him. He's only ever had one point and that is wrt build time and that has already been addressed in the guidelines produced for Secondary Arch promotion. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Hi, > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) > based smartphone: > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ > > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. > > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. Phones have never been a target for Fedora ARM so the point you make is completely irrelevant and doesn't change any of our aims or goals. Intel has been producing Atom processors aimed at phones for a couple of generations of processor now. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 6:42 AM, tim.laurid...@gmail.com wrote: > > [...] > > Linux is about choices No it isn't: http://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html (I do disagree with Kevin though). -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
* Kevin Kofler [15/06/2012 06:48] : > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) > based smartphone: > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ Moorestown has been around since 2010 and several vendors have made phones using it. None of these have ever been released since the battery consumption was off the scale compared to any ARM processor. Emmanuel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Hi, > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) > based smartphone: > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ > > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. > > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of > the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. > >Kevin Kofler > > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Why do we waste time on Linux, when we all just can use Windows, the desktop market leader Linux is about choices and is driven by people by by people with passions for something, even if not what every body else think is importent. So telling people to don't waste time on something they care about, Is wrong in so many ways. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Hi, > > I've been pointed to a news item about a (apparently the first) x86 (Atom) > based smartphone: > http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/14/orange-san-diego-review/ > > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. > > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. > > Kevin Kofler > well, at my home I have more arm machines than x86 I am replacing x86 with arm -- Itamar Reis Peixoto msn, google talk: ita...@ispbrasil.com.br +55 11 4063 5033 (FIXO SP) +55 34 9158 9329 (TIM) +55 34 8806 3989 (OI) +55 34 3221 8599 (FIXO MG) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat > ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the > instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still > worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core > Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. _A_ smartphone is trying Atom (and there's no telling if it will be successful). ARM still beats the tar out of x86 at performance per watt hour, and Atom hasn't come close after years on the market. What about Fedora supporting ARM offends you so much to bring this rant? -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 01:57:18AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > So I would urge Fedora not to waste our time on a low-end architecture > filling a temporary niche which will become obsolete as demand for > performance increases. We should rather support only one primary > architecture (x86, i.e.: x86_64, and legacy i686 as long as there's a need > for it) and support it well, as we have done since we finally got rid of the > legacy PPC burden. Niche architectures are exactly what secondary > architectures are for. If Fedora ARM is currently causing you problems then please do point out the specifics. But if it's not, then why do you expect it to get any worse if it becomes a primary architecture? -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ARM is a dead end
On Fri, 15 Jun 2012, Kevin Kofler wrote: So even smartphones are going x86 now. It looks like x86 is going to defeat ARM just like it defeated all the previous attempts at changing the instruction set, even Intel's own IA-64. The fastest x86 CPUs are still worlds faster than the fastest ARM CPUs. This new smartphone's single-core Atom is competitive in speed with other smartphones' multi-core ARMs. Speed is not my main concern on a smartphone CPU. Battery consumption is. Paul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
