Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-05-29 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek 
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 04:54:24PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-05-28 at 14:59 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-03-25 at 10:42 +0200, Michal Novotny wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> > > > > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> > > > > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> > > > > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> > > > > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> > > > > distributed?".
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
> > > > for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
> > > > store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!
> > > 
> > > I've changed it in the README.
> > 
> > ref: https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git
> > 
> > "DistGit (Distribution Git) is..."
> 
> Sorry, pardon the inadvertent thread necro, good old "forgot was
> browsing the list with a filter applied"...

Hmm, why do people consider this a problem? People apologize for
resurrecting a thread on occasion, I never understood why.
I see two possibilities: if I deleted the old messages, reusing the
thread has no effect for me except a Reply-to which I don't see, and a
"Re:" in the subject. If I still have the old messages, I don't need
to look for context in case I need it. The first scenario is a meh,
the second is a win.

Zbyszek
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-05-28 Thread Adam Williamson 
On Mon, 2018-05-28 at 14:59 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-03-25 at 10:42 +0200, Michal Novotny wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> > > > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> > > > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> > > > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> > > > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> > > > distributed?".
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
> > > for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
> > > store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
> > > 
> > 
> > Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!
> > 
> > I've changed it in the README.
> 
> ref: https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git
> 
> "DistGit (Distribution Git) is..."

Sorry, pardon the inadvertent thread necro, good old "forgot was
browsing the list with a filter applied"...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-05-28 Thread Adam Williamson 
On Sun, 2018-03-25 at 10:42 +0200, Michal Novotny wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> > > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> > > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> > > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> > > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> > > distributed?".
> > > 
> > 
> > I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
> > for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
> > store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
> > 
> 
> Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!
> 
> I've changed it in the README.

ref: https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git

"DistGit (Distribution Git) is..."
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-25 Thread chicago 
https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git/commit/6502c87ebdf58661e8ff96fe4a3212b5991f8a44

>I agree that using "Fedora Package Source Repository"
>instead of just "Fedora DistGit" is clearer (but also longer
>so I, personally, like your Glossary suggestion the best).

I think it depends on who the audience is... 

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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-25 Thread Michal Novotny 
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 7:29 PM, Christopher 
wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 4:43 AM Michal Novotny  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
>>> > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
>>> > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
>>> > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
>>> > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
>>> > distributed?".
>>> >
>>>
>>> I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
>>> for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
>>> store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
>>>
>>
>> Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!
>>
>> I've changed it in the README.
>>
>>
>
> Which README? Where is it located?
>

Here: https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git

I agree that using "Fedora Package Source Repository"
instead of just "Fedora DistGit" is clearer (but also longer
so I, personally, like your Glossary suggestion the best).


>
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-25 Thread Christopher 
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 4:43 AM Michal Novotny  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
>> >
>> > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
>> > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
>> > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
>> > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
>> > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
>> > distributed?".
>> >
>>
>> I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
>> for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
>> store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
>>
>
> Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!
>
> I've changed it in the README.
>
>

Which README? Where is it located?
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-25 Thread Michal Novotny 
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
> >
> > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> > distributed?".
> >
>
> I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
> for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
> store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
>
> Unlike VCSes like CVS and SVN, Git does not handle binaries very well,
> and so they needed to be moved out of the VCS into an external store.
> This was the first attempt at it, and it works, though no one else
> ever adopted it due to some of the clunkiness with it (the undefined
> sources file format, inability to cleanly define where the sources are
> actually stored, etc.).
>
> Those issues could probably be solved today, but I don't think anyone
> really cares to fix that in a way where Dist-Git would integrate more
> cleanly into Git itself.
>

Oh,  I actually care about it.


>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-25 Thread Michal Novotny 
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 12:03 AM, Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
> >
> > Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> > first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> > data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> > just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> > somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> > distributed?".
> >
>
> I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
> for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
> store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.
>

Ha, okay, actually, "distribution Git" makes more sense. Thank you!

I've changed it in the README.

clime


>
> Unlike VCSes like CVS and SVN, Git does not handle binaries very well,
> and so they needed to be moved out of the VCS into an external store.
> This was the first attempt at it, and it works, though no one else
> ever adopted it due to some of the clunkiness with it (the undefined
> sources file format, inability to cleanly define where the sources are
> actually stored, etc.).
>
> Those issues could probably be solved today, but I don't think anyone
> really cares to fix that in a way where Dist-Git would integrate more
> cleanly into Git itself.
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Neal Gompa 
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Kevin Kofler  wrote:
> Neal Gompa wrote:
>> Unlike VCSes like CVS and SVN, Git does not handle binaries very well,
>> and so they needed to be moved out of the VCS into an external store.
>
> Actually, the external lookaside cache was already used in Fedora in the CVS
> days.
>

Heh. Well, it has been over ten years. I don't remember these things anymore. :)



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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Kevin Kofler 
Neal Gompa wrote:
> Unlike VCSes like CVS and SVN, Git does not handle binaries very well,
> and so they needed to be moved out of the VCS into an external store.

Actually, the external lookaside cache was already used in Fedora in the CVS 
days.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Neal Gompa 
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 6:57 PM, Ben Rosser  wrote:
>
> Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
> first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
> data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
> just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
> somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
> distributed?".
>

I might be misremembering, but I think Dist-Git was originally short
for "Distribution Git". It was the first attempt to marry a binary
store to Git, predating git-annex and Git LFS by several years.

Unlike VCSes like CVS and SVN, Git does not handle binaries very well,
and so they needed to be moved out of the VCS into an external store.
This was the first attempt at it, and it works, though no one else
ever adopted it due to some of the clunkiness with it (the undefined
sources file format, inability to cleanly define where the sources are
actually stored, etc.).

Those issues could probably be solved today, but I don't think anyone
really cares to fix that in a way where Dist-Git would integrate more
cleanly into Git itself.


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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Ben Rosser 
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
> Dne 24.3.2018 v 06:59 Christopher napsal(a):
>> Can we stop saying "dist-git" in our docs? Nobody knows what that is.
>> The service at https://src.fedoraproject.org is clearly branded as "Fedora 
>> Package Sources".
>
> BTW dist-git is (for some time) documented quite well:
>   https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git
>
> And AFAIK the Pagure is frontend to "just" that git part. It does not handle 
> lookaside cache at all.

I think that's kind of Christopher's point. We use "dist-git"
pervasively to refer to our package repositories, but from a
packager's perspective they are more or less just normal git
repositories. I can interact with them using normal git commands. The
only thing that makes these "dist-git" repositories special is the
existence of the lookaside cache, but I don't know that this is enough
to motivate using an entirely separate term to describe the
repositories.

Looking at the dist-git README further reinforces this impression. The
first sentence says: "DistGit (Distributed Git) is Git with additional
data storage". My initial reaction to that is "so, it is basically
just git". My second reaction is "why does additional data storage
somehow make git (a distributed version control system) even _more_
distributed?".

The rest of the README goes onto describe technical details about
dist-git and then includes a "user's guide", which is helpful... if
you are a user trying to set up infrastructure. It's not very relevant
to a packager trying to learn their way around things.

Ben Rosser
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Miroslav Suchý 
Dne 24.3.2018 v 06:59 Christopher napsal(a):
> Can we stop saying "dist-git" in our docs? Nobody knows what that is.
> The service at https://src.fedoraproject.org is clearly branded as "Fedora 
> Package Sources".

BTW dist-git is (for some time) documented quite well:
  https://github.com/release-engineering/dist-git

And AFAIK the Pagure is frontend to "just" that git part. It does not handle 
lookaside cache at all.

Though, I understand the confusion.

Miroslav

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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Randy Barlow 
On 03/24/2018 01:59 AM, Christopher wrote:
> If this seems reasonable, I'd be happy to help start editing some of the
> wiki pages... but it'd be helpful if everybody maintaining
> infrastructure documentation was on the same page.

+1 from me.
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Re: Avoiding Jargon: dist-git

2018-03-24 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek 
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 05:59:38AM +, Christopher wrote:
> Can we stop saying "dist-git" in our docs? Nobody knows what that is.
> The service at https://src.fedoraproject.org is clearly branded as "Fedora
> Package Sources".
> 
> Using the jargon "dist-git" in our documentation is simply confusing, since
> it doesn't match what the service calls itself, and doesn't match any user
> interface packagers use. As far as I can tell, only people with a deep
> understanding of Fedora's infrastructure (which does not seem to be most
> packagers) know what this term means.
> 
> For example, in
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/WhatHappenedToPkgdb , instead
> of saying "Browse to your project on Pagure over Dist-Git (Top Level
> link)", we should say: "Browse to your project's Package Source repository
> at https://src.fedoraproject.org;
> 
> And, instead of saying "How do I request commit access to a dist-git
> repo?", we should say: "How do I request commit access to a Package Source
> repository?"
> 
> Using special/internal/historical jargon, especially when that jargon
> doesn't correspond to the current packager experience when interacting with
> these services, only leads to confusion and should be avoided.

+1 to doing the change. This is especially important for people who need
the docs the most — newcomers.

Zbyszek

> If we really need to use the term "dist-git" in the wiki, it should at
> least link to a glossary page that says "Dist-Git: A term which refers to
> the Fedora Package Sources repository hosting service at
> https://src.fedoraproject.org built on Pagure (an open source git
> repository management service)", instead of just assuming everybody seeing
> the term "dist-git" knows what that term is and where it came from.
> 
> If we can avoid jargon with this term and other similar terms, it'd be a
> big help to our documentation.
> 
> If this seems reasonable, I'd be happy to help start editing some of the
> wiki pages... but it'd be helpful if everybody maintaining infrastructure
> documentation was on the same page.
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