Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-18 Thread Sérgio Basto

we are talking about it here 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1964630#c27

On Wed, 2021-08-18 at 17:20 +0200, Iago Rubio wrote:
> I guess this is a bug but on
> https://packager-dashboard.fedoraproject.org/user/orphan there are
> "important" - or at least very used - packages affected by this:
> 
> java-1.8.0-openjdk 
> depends on orphaned packages
>  
> problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> 
> remotely depends on orphaned packages: * cbi-plugins
> * eclipse
> * eclipse-ecf
> * eclipse-emf
> * eclipse-license
> * felix-gogo-command
> * felix-gogo-parent
> * felix-gogo-runtime
> * felix-gogo-shell
> * felix-scr
> * icu4j
> * lucene
> * tycho
> rstudio
> depends on orphaned packages
>  
> problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> 
> remotely depends on orphaned packages: * cbi-plugins
> * eclipse
> * eclipse-ecf
> * eclipse-emf
> * eclipse-license
> * felix-gogo-command
> * felix-gogo-parent
> * felix-gogo-runtime
> * felix-gogo-shell
> * felix-scr
> * icu4j
> * lucene
> * tycho
> 
> 
> mysql-connector-java
> depends on orphaned packages
>  
> problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
> 
> remotely depends on orphaned packages: * cbi-plugins
> * eclipse
> * eclipse-ecf
> * eclipse-emf
> * eclipse-license
> * felix-gogo-command
> * felix-gogo-parent
> * felix-gogo-runtime
> * felix-gogo-shell
> * felix-scr
> * icu4j
> * lucene
> * tycho
> ... and many more.
> 
> On Wed, 2021-08-11 at 13:35 +0300, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-18 Thread Iago Rubio
I guess this is a bug but on 
https://packager-dashboard.fedoraproject.org/user/orphan there are
"important" - or at least very used  -  packages affected by this:
java-1.8.0-openjdk depends on orphaned packages
 
problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC

remotely depends on orphaned packages:cbi-pluginseclipseeclipse-
ecfeclipse-emfeclipse-licensefelix-gogo-commandfelix-gogo-parentfelix-
gogo-runtimefelix-gogo-shellfelix-scricu4jlucenetychorstudiodepends on
orphaned packages
 

problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC

remotely depends on orphaned packages:cbi-pluginseclipseeclipse-
ecfeclipse-emfeclipse-licensefelix-gogo-commandfelix-gogo-parentfelix-
gogo-runtimefelix-gogo-shellfelix-scricu4jlucenetycho
mysql-connector-java
depends on orphaned packages
 

problematic since Aug 11 2021, 10:23:06 UTC
will have trouble on Sep 22 2021, 10:23:06 UTC

remotely depends on orphaned packages:cbi-pluginseclipseeclipse-
ecfeclipse-emfeclipse-licensefelix-gogo-commandfelix-gogo-parentfelix-
gogo-runtimefelix-gogo-shellfelix-scricu4jlucenetycho... and many more.
On Wed, 2021-08-11 at 13:35 +0300, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> Announcement:
> 
> Eclipse IDE and its ancillary packages are orphaned now. As a result
> the Eclipse IDE will no longer be installable as a package in Fedora
> 35.
> 
> 
> What is happening?
> Nearly 180 Java packages were orphaned after the Fedora 34 release
> due to a lack of community maintainers willing to share the package
> maintenance burden. Despite the fact that many have been taken up,
> the Eclipse IDE stack still depends on some of the orphaned Java
> packages and requires modifications to them (e.g. injecting OSGi
> metadata), which in turn has resulted in the Eclipse package itself
> also being orphaned.
> 
> The Eclipse Team at Red Hat can no longer maintain the Eclipse
> packages in Fedora, and instead we are focusing our efforts on
> prioritizing upstream development to ensure that the Eclipse IDE
> continues to receive regular updates and maintenance.
> 
> 
> What does this mean for Eclipse users?
> The Eclipse IDE and its ancillary packages will no longer be
> installable as rpm packages. Users are encouraged to download and
> install Eclipse directly from upstream, or install Eclipse via
> flatpak.
> 
> 
> List of packages orphaned (all were maintained for the sake of
> Eclipse stack):
> * eclipse
> * cbi-plugins
> * eclipse-ecf
> * eclipse-egit
> * eclipse-emf
> * eclipse-gef
> * eclipse-jgit
> * eclipse-license
> * eclipse-m2e-core
> * eclipse-m2e-workspace
> * eclipse-mpc
> * eclipse-subclipse
> * eclipse-webtools
> * felix-gogo-command
> * felix-gogo-parent
> * felix-gogo-runtime
> * felix-gogo-shell
> * felix-scr
> * icu4j
> * jsch
> * lucene
> * rhino
> * takari-polyglot
> * tycho
> 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-18 Thread Mat Booth
On Tue, 17 Aug 2021 at 14:15, Aleksandar Kurtakov  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 2:08 PM Frank Ch. Eigler  wrote:
>>
>>
>> > [...]  Eclipse tries to keep up to date with libraries shipped. Quite
>> > often the effort of moving to new versions of a library (e.g. lucene)
>> > requires changes in Eclipse itself
>>
>> Is this level of backward non-compatibility typical in Java?
>
>
> I would not say in Java overall but in certain projects - YES!
>
>

There appears to be something stuck in my throat

*cough* lucene *cough* guava *cough*


-- 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-18 Thread Mat Booth
On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 at 09:58, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
 wrote:
>
> On 18/08/2021 01:32, Mat Booth wrote:
> > Not within the constraints of Fedora's packaging rules.
>
> Bundling is allowed by Fedora's packaging guidelines.
>

Binaries not built from source are not allowed:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/what-can-be-packaged/#prebuilt-binaries-or-libraries

You would have to rebuild all Eclipse deps from source -- at that
point it is no different in terms of package maintainer effort than
maintaining separate RPMs.


-- 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-18 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel

On 18/08/2021 01:32, Mat Booth wrote:

Not within the constraints of Fedora's packaging rules.


Bundling is allowed by Fedora's packaging guidelines.

--
Sincerely,
  Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Mat Booth
On Tue, 17 Aug 2021 at 13:33, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
 wrote:
>
> On 17/08/2021 11:51, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> > Eclipse Flatpak is maintained and updated shortly after upstream Eclipse
> > release by the very same people so for now it's the best integration
> > achievable with given manpower.
>
> Is it possible to bundle all dependencies into an Eclipse's RPM package?
>

Not within the constraints of Fedora's packaging rules.

-- 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 2:08 PM Frank Ch. Eigler  wrote:

>
> > [...]  Eclipse tries to keep up to date with libraries shipped. Quite
> > often the effort of moving to new versions of a library (e.g. lucene)
> > requires changes in Eclipse itself
>
> Is this level of backward non-compatibility typical in Java?
>

I would not say in Java overall but in certain projects - YES!


>
> > and Fedora being ahead/behind with versions puts too much burden on
> > the maintainer. This is the number two item when classified by time
> > spent.
>
> Fedora could ship some frozen/LTS versions of libraries, if these exist
> and do not constitute a security problem.  If that's not an option
> either, to this outsider it looks like building on quicksand, paddling
> as fast as possible to stay above the mud.
>
> - FChE
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Aleksandar Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel

On 17/08/2021 11:51, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
Eclipse Flatpak is maintained and updated shortly after upstream Eclipse 
release by the very same people so for now it's the best integration 
achievable with given manpower.


Is it possible to bundle all dependencies into an Eclipse's RPM package?

--
Sincerely,
  Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Frank Ch. Eigler

> [...]  Eclipse tries to keep up to date with libraries shipped. Quite
> often the effort of moving to new versions of a library (e.g. lucene)
> requires changes in Eclipse itself

Is this level of backward non-compatibility typical in Java?

> and Fedora being ahead/behind with versions puts too much burden on
> the maintainer. This is the number two item when classified by time
> spent.

Fedora could ship some frozen/LTS versions of libraries, if these exist
and do not constitute a security problem.  If that's not an option
either, to this outsider it looks like building on quicksand, paddling
as fast as possible to stay above the mud.

- FChE
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 11:39 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On 17/08/2021 10:14, Mat Booth wrote:
> > Flatpak system is way less overhead for packagers and ISVs. There
> > should be no surprise at all that maintainers of large applications
> > prefer to distribute via Flatpak.
>
> Because they bundle everything inside the Flatpak. I don't like that,
> because most of bundled libraries are never updated[1].
>

With my upstream hat on:
Eclipse tries to keep up to date with libraries shipped. Quite often the
effort of moving to new versions of a library (e.g. lucene) requires
changes in Eclipse itself and Fedora being ahead/behind with versions puts
too much burden on the maintainer. This is the number two item when
classified by time spent.
Eclipse Flatpak is maintained and updated shortly after upstream Eclipse
release by the very same people so for now it's the best integration
achievable with given manpower.


>
> [1]:
>
> https://www.veracode.com/blog/research/announcing-state-software-security-v11-open-source-edition
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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Aleksandar Kurtakov
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel

On 17/08/2021 10:14, Mat Booth wrote:

Flatpak system is way less overhead for packagers and ISVs. There
should be no surprise at all that maintainers of large applications
prefer to distribute via Flatpak.


Because they bundle everything inside the Flatpak. I don't like that, 
because most of bundled libraries are never updated[1].


[1]: 
https://www.veracode.com/blog/research/announcing-state-software-security-v11-open-source-edition


--
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  Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-17 Thread Mat Booth
On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 13:20, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
 wrote:
>
> On 11/08/2021 12:35, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> > Eclipse IDE and its ancillary packages are orphaned now. As a result the
> > Eclipse IDE will no longer be installable as a package in Fedora 35.
>
> > Red Hat Eclipse Team
>
> Even Red Hat employees can't handle the Java Stack on Fedora. This is so
> sad.
>

It is a full time job for one person to maintain Eclipse as RPMs. The
Flatpak system is way less overhead for packagers and ISVs. There
should be no surprise at all that maintainers of large applications
prefer to distribute via Flatpak.

-- 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-14 Thread Markku Korkeala
On 8/11/21 1:35 PM, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
*snip*

> *List of packages orphaned (all were maintained for the sake of Eclipse
> stack):*
> * eclipse
> * cbi-plugins
> * eclipse-ecf
> * eclipse-egit
> * eclipse-emf
> * eclipse-gef
> * eclipse-jgit
> * eclipse-license
> * eclipse-m2e-core
> * eclipse-m2e-workspace
> * eclipse-mpc
> * eclipse-subclipse
> * eclipse-webtools
> * felix-gogo-command
> * felix-gogo-parent
> * felix-gogo-runtime
> * felix-gogo-shell
> * felix-scr
> * icu4j
> * jsch
> * lucene
> * rhino
> * takari-polyglot
> * tycho

Hi,

I took jsch, it seems to affect couple of important packages.

Also noticed kawa being orphaned, I took that too.

BR,
Markku

> -- 
> Aleksandar Kurtakov
> Red Hat Eclipse Team
> 
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-11 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 9:45 PM Frank Ch. Eigler  wrote:

> Aleksandar Kurtakov  writes:
>
> > List of packages orphaned (all were maintained for the sake of Eclipse
> > stack):
> > * eclipse
> > [...]
>
> Could upstream eclipse make an effort to reduce its dependency
> footprint?
>

Everything is possible if someone finds the time for it.


>
> - FChE
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-11 Thread Frank Ch. Eigler
Aleksandar Kurtakov  writes:

> List of packages orphaned (all were maintained for the sake of Eclipse
> stack):
> * eclipse
> [...]

Could upstream eclipse make an effort to reduce its dependency
footprint?

- FChE
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-11 Thread Aleksandar Kurtakov
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 3:20 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On 11/08/2021 12:35, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
> > Eclipse IDE and its ancillary packages are orphaned now. As a result the
> > Eclipse IDE will no longer be installable as a package in Fedora 35.
>
> > Red Hat Eclipse Team
>
> Even Red Hat employees can't handle the Java Stack on Fedora. This is so
> sad.
>

It's a resources problem not a technical one - as the team gains more
upstream duties there is just no time for Fedora, there are only so many
hours in the day.


>
> --
> Sincerely,
>Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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-- 
Aleksandar Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Eclipse IDE packages and friends orphaned

2021-08-11 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel

On 11/08/2021 12:35, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:
Eclipse IDE and its ancillary packages are orphaned now. As a result the 
Eclipse IDE will no longer be installable as a package in Fedora 35.



Red Hat Eclipse Team


Even Red Hat employees can't handle the Java Stack on Fedora. This is so 
sad.


--
Sincerely,
  Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
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