Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 9:27 AM, les hlhow...@pacbell.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-09-19 at 15:26 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 09:04:52PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: In summary: I believe that containers are a big part of being awesome in the cloud. And right now running Fedora inside a container is not that great an experience. It kinda works, but it's very very rough around the edges. Thanks Lennart. I agree, this is an important aspect. Yes, I know I should have subscribed to the ML and posted that there, but I am s lazy to do that for one mail only... I apologize. Not a problem -- this list is good too, because ultimately it's going to affect everyone. I'm happy to engage community members, developers, and users not just in my home space but in theirs as well. :) -- Matthew Miller _☁_ Fedora Cloud Architect _☁_ mat...@fedoraproject.org I am a cloud doubter. Cloud for business is one thing, IF and only if the cloud is maintained by that business. Otherwise a third party is free to move the data wherever they want, meaning physical access, legal control, license review and regulation are no longer in control. Worse, it leads to volume based pricing, which can then be easily manipulated without the consumers knowledge, ability to recognize it, or to control it. Moreover it will make censure-ship easier, and in general bad for the common user. If the past can help us in any way to make prediction about the future, here is mine: In 10 years, the cloud will be over. People will still use it, but its pervasiveness will give place to a client-side solution, with people storing and processing their data themselves. In another 10-years, that client-side solution will be replaced by another server-side one. The cloud name will be picked by the past, and people will use something else, maybe Galaxy But until it happens, for those who want to surf the cloud, best thing Fedora can do is allow them to do with the best technologies we can. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On 09/20/2012 01:47 PM, Glauber Costa wrote: Seconding what Lennart said, I hope to be able with this to improve Fedora's container experience, which I also view as crucial for a deep cloud strategy. I hope this is good news for at least a part of you guys! I used to be sys admin work for various web hosting companies and a number of them use openvz to provide root access which were essentially openvz containers. It would be nice to finally see openvz upstream and in Fedora regardless of the cloud Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 09:04:52PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: In summary: I believe that containers are a big part of being awesome in the cloud. And right now running Fedora inside a container is not that great an experience. It kinda works, but it's very very rough around the edges. Thanks Lennart. I agree, this is an important aspect. Yes, I know I should have subscribed to the ML and posted that there, but I am s lazy to do that for one mail only... I apologize. Not a problem -- this list is good too, because ultimately it's going to affect everyone. I'm happy to engage community members, developers, and users not just in my home space but in theirs as well. :) If I may jump in, I was active in Fedora some years ago as the maintainer for the KVM related packages, firmwares, etc. I recently reactivated my account, with the intention of packaging OpenVZ for Fedora (http://wiki.openvz.org/Main_Page) OpenVZ is a very mature piece of containers technology, regularly used and commercially supported in production for quite a while now. Its main disadvantage is that it require a patched kernel to properly function. I recently, however, modified the tools (which is what I intend to package) so they will run with a standard distro kernel, with limited functionality. I am, with some colleagues, also working extensively upstream to port all technologies to Linux Upstream. We are very close, for instance, to achieving live migration support. Seconding what Lennart said, I hope to be able with this to improve Fedora's container experience, which I also view as crucial for a deep cloud strategy. I hope this is good news for at least a part of you guys! cya soon -- Sent from my Atari. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On 09/20/2012 04:17 AM, Glauber Costa wrote: I hope this is good news for at least a part of you guys! I've been hoping that OpenVZ would manage to be in the mainstream kernel for several years now, so I am definitely supportive of any effort to achieve that goal and enable it in Fedora. ~tom == Fedora Project -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
Hello everyone. I've been active with Fedora for a while, and I know a lot of you and I hope a lot of you know me. I helped with the first few FUDCons back when I was at Boston University, and have been moderately active on this list, in Bugzilla, and as a package maintainer, and with other things Fedora as my employment has allowed. Well, now, my employment will allow it *a lot*, as I've been hired by Red Hat full time to work on Fedora. Specifically, I'm going to work on bringing some sense to the whole Cloud thing – what that buzzword practically means for us as a project both now and in the future, and (critically) what we should do about it. There is some seriously awesome cloud-related work going on in Fedora — many of the features for F18, for example — but there's no real overall vision for how this will all work together for us. So, I'm going to indulge in some strategic planning, starting with some basic questions about our stakeholders for cloud in Fedora, and working on a mission and vision within Fedora as a whole. I hope you'll join me in working on this. If any of this sounds interesting, please come on over to the Cloud SIG, centered around the mailing list https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud and pitch in. And if the words strategic and planning make your eyes glaze over, don't worry. This is going to be a *doing* thing, not just a *talking* thing. Computing as a whole is _really_ at one of those big inflection points, and it's going to take a lot of action to bring us on over to the other side — where we've got a *lot* to contribute that the world shouldn't miss out on. (Working on bringing the Cloud SIG Fedora wiki page up to reflect current activity is one of my low-hanging-fruit tasks as well, but I wanted to get this intro out there first thing.) And if you want to talk about any of this in any medium _beyond_ the Cloud SIG, please feel free. My inbox is open, I'll be seeing a lot of you at various conferences, and if you're in the Boston/Cambridge/Somerville area, we have a lot of nice places serving local microbrews. (I will buy you a drink if you can refrain from using the word nebulous in a conversation about cloud.) -- Matthew Miller _☁_ Fedora Cloud Architect _☁_ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On Wed, 19.09.12 14:10, Matthew Miller (mat...@fedoraproject.org) wrote: If any of this sounds interesting, please come on over to the Cloud SIG, centered around the mailing list https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud and pitch in. And if the words strategic and planning make your eyes glaze over, don't worry. This is going to be a *doing* thing, not just a *talking* thing. Computing as a whole is _really_ at one of those big inflection points, and it's going to take a lot of action to bring us on over to the other side — where we've got a *lot* to contribute that the world shouldn't miss out on. I think there are two crucial requirements to make Fedora fun in the cloud: a) We should regularly test Fedora in containers. Containers are a core feature to allow cloud providers overcommit their resources more drastically. I spent some time on making systemd boot up relatively cleanly in an nspawn/libvirt-lxc container (simply because it makes it easier for me to debug systemd), but that's just systemd and not the whole distro and right now it's a lot more fun to run systemd in a Debian container on Fedora than on systemd in a Fedora container on Fedora (audit...). If Fedora cares for the cloud, then we probably should declare container boots something that is on the level on a release architecture, by which I mean that it is regularly tested and a requirement for release. This really is an area where some pressure could be needed. The systemd test suite actually builds an OS image that is booted once inside of kvm, and once in nspawn, to make sure we get everything right in systemd, and that the very same image can be booted both ways unaltered and entirely stateless. I'd like to see a similar level of testing in all of Fedora, too. b) We should try much harder to lower the resource cost per container. If cloud providers need less disk space, less CPU, and less memory per container, then this allows them to run much more containers on one system. And that translates directly to cash for them. For one this means we should try much harder to reduce the minimal installation set of packages of Fedora. And that probably means regularly posting blame lists (whose packages pull in 100MB more this time? Who is the king of adding new dependencies?) and having somebody who really invests the work in splitting up packages to minimize deps. But it also means running services more often by activation on demand (socket primarily). i.e. if a cloud provider wants to grant SSH access to customers for their individual containers he shouldn't have to run one sshd per container, but should just have the socket listening. i.e. having 5000 sockets listening on a machine is relatively cheap. Running 5000 sshd instances on a machine is quite expensive. In summary: I believe that containers are a big part of being awesome in the cloud. And right now running Fedora inside a container is not that great an experience. It kinda works, but it's very very rough around the edges. Yes, I know I should have subscribed to the ML and posted that there, but I am s lazy to do that for one mail only... I apologize. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora's Cloud Future (and, self (re-)introduction)
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 09:04:52PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: In summary: I believe that containers are a big part of being awesome in the cloud. And right now running Fedora inside a container is not that great an experience. It kinda works, but it's very very rough around the edges. Thanks Lennart. I agree, this is an important aspect. Yes, I know I should have subscribed to the ML and posted that there, but I am s lazy to do that for one mail only... I apologize. Not a problem -- this list is good too, because ultimately it's going to affect everyone. I'm happy to engage community members, developers, and users not just in my home space but in theirs as well. :) -- Matthew Miller _☁_ Fedora Cloud Architect _☁_ mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Self (Re)Introduction
Hi, On 04/29/2011 01:19 AM, Andy Grimm wrote: Hello, all. A brief bio on me: I started using Red Hat Linux in college in 1997. I spent half a decade as a Linux sys admin, and long ago I used to lurk in #redhat and #fedora giving tech support to new users. I first met some of these fine Fedora folks at FUDCon 2005. I finally signed up to be a Fedora contributor while at Ingres in 2007, but that didn't go quite as I expected, and I never submitted packages for review. I left Ingres for rPath, where I spent four years doing support and sustaining engineering for rPath Linux, Conary, and other rPath software; related to that, I've run Foresight Linux on my laptop for a while, so I'm still catching up on some the changes in the world of Fedora since 2007. This month, I joined Eucalyptus as a release engineer, and Garrett Holmstrom and I plan to co-maintain various Eucalyptus-related packages and their dependencies. I also hope to make other contributions as time permits. Welcome! Regards, Hans -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Self (Re)Introduction
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:19:29 -0400 Andy Grimm agr...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, all. A brief bio on me: I started using Red Hat Linux in college in 1997. I spent half a decade as a Linux sys admin, and long ago I used to lurk in #redhat and #fedora giving tech support to new users. I first met some of these fine Fedora folks at FUDCon 2005. I finally signed up to be a Fedora contributor while at Ingres in 2007, but that didn't go quite as I expected, and I never submitted packages for review. I left Ingres for rPath, where I spent four years doing support and sustaining engineering for rPath Linux, Conary, and other rPath software; related to that, I've run Foresight Linux on my laptop for a while, so I'm still catching up on some the changes in the world of Fedora since 2007. This month, I joined Eucalyptus as a release engineer, and Garrett Holmstrom and I plan to co-maintain various Eucalyptus-related packages and their dependencies. I also hope to make other contributions as time permits. Welcome. I look forward to seeing Eucalyptus in Fedora and EPEL. ;) kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Self (Re)Introduction
Hello, all. A brief bio on me: I started using Red Hat Linux in college in 1997. I spent half a decade as a Linux sys admin, and long ago I used to lurk in #redhat and #fedora giving tech support to new users. I first met some of these fine Fedora folks at FUDCon 2005. I finally signed up to be a Fedora contributor while at Ingres in 2007, but that didn't go quite as I expected, and I never submitted packages for review. I left Ingres for rPath, where I spent four years doing support and sustaining engineering for rPath Linux, Conary, and other rPath software; related to that, I've run Foresight Linux on my laptop for a while, so I'm still catching up on some the changes in the world of Fedora since 2007. This month, I joined Eucalyptus as a release engineer, and Garrett Holmstrom and I plan to co-maintain various Eucalyptus-related packages and their dependencies. I also hope to make other contributions as time permits. --Andy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
