Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
Michael Cronenworth wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) Filed 9 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 Or 1 year ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 But... but... if one of these two is declared duplicate of the other, their CC lists will not be merged... :-) -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 02:48 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/11/09 07:39 (GMT+0100) David Tardon composed: Btw, maybe you should look at the proverb in your signature and try to apply it to yourself. Because in this thread you have neither shown understanding nor used pleasant words. The words I used are not inherently unpleasant, only unpleasant because people don't want to hear the truth they report. Testers who can't fix bugs are treated like lepers compared to those who provide patches, deserving of less than equal respect. As a Bugzilla user for a decade or so, I understand this very well. It's a constant battle to remember to spend enough time rereading before sending in order to prevent inappropriate language to escape, particularly as given so little respect in the whole test and bug process overall (e.g. not only the duping of good older bugs to newer bugs, but Bugzilla itself: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638726 ). ...another thread in which you bang on about rudeness from others but can't seem to recognize it in yourself. Note how the first comment on that bug is me agreeing with you about that specific problem. Where you get into trouble is where you start making grand declarations about how the entire websites team should be run. This isn't the Godfather, and you're not Marlon Brando. Exactly as Karsten said in that bug, inflating a single bug into a grand theory of everything is counter-productive, and your implicit suggestion that they don't know what the hell they're doing was deeply insulting to those who work on the websites team. The problem with this thread is that you still haven't explained one fundamental thing which you keep taking for granted and assume everyone agrees with you about: you think an older bug being marked as a duplicate of a newer bug is a huge problem. What I'm trying to explain is that not everyone *does* agree with you about this; I for one don't see what the big deal is. There isn't a prize system for bug reports. No-one's keeping track of who files bugs and who 'won' in terms of reporting the bug first. You don't lose any points if your report gets closed as a dupe of someone else's. There just isn't a 'respect' issue here, as far as I can see, which you seem to assume is the case. When there are duplicate reports and someone cleans them up and fixes the bug, that's a *good* thing. I can see an argument here for keeping the older bug open as a bug against xorg, as the fix to pyxf86config kinda works around an underlying bug in xorg which hasn't gone away (someone's explained this in the bug thread) - but that's just a plain technical discussion. I really don't see why it ought to make anyone get hot under the collar. So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? As the subject says, I see no point in further bother. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/rudeweb.html -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 08:45 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? As a devel - I've found that I close bugs as dupes of other bugs and I try to have the bug which has the most succinct explanation of the problem and the solution as the one that everything is duped TO. That way when I look at open bugs I get the best one, not the others. the order they came in doesn't matter, imo. -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 12:16 -0500, seth vidal wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 08:45 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote: So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? As a devel - I've found that I close bugs as dupes of other bugs and I try to have the bug which has the most succinct explanation of the problem and the solution as the one that everything is duped TO. That way when I look at open bugs I get the best one, not the others. the order they came in doesn't matter, imo. right, that seems to be the approach Lubomir took. I don't see a problem with that approach, to be frank, I can't see any intrinsic reason why we should prescribe always making the oldest report the 'original'; it does seem to make more sense to make the most useful report the 'original'. Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
Adam Williamson wrote: Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) Filed 9 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 Or 1 year ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 11:49 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) Filed 9 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 Or 1 year ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 well hey, that saves me the trouble. :/ -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
Hi, On 11/09/2010 07:14 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 11:49 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) Filed 9 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 Or 1 year ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 well hey, that saves me the trouble. :/ I completely understand the :/ I myself haver filed a bug about bugzilla setting a mime type which browsers don't recognize rather then text/plain, which would be correct: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=555677 I cannot help but notice a trend here, that our bugzilla is not getting the love it needs :( Regards, Hans -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 20:06 +0100, Hans de Goede wrote: Hi, On 11/09/2010 07:14 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 11:49 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: Only point to note is that it would definitely be a good thing to fix Bugzilla to merge the CC lists, I'll file a bug on that. =) Filed 9 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 Or 1 year ago: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 well hey, that saves me the trouble. :/ I completely understand the :/ I myself haver filed a bug about bugzilla setting a mime type which browsers don't recognize rather then text/plain, which would be correct: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=555677 I cannot help but notice a trend here, that our bugzilla is not getting the love it needs :( in a sense our hands are somewhat tied; we have a policy of sticking close to upstream Bugzilla code to avoid getting (back) into the case where our Bugzilla is so diverged from upstream that we can no longer track upstream updates promptly. So our Bugzilla maintainers generally won't push changes that aren't either upstreamed or stand a good chance of being upstreamed soon, AIUI. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 2010/11/09 08:45 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed: There isn't a prize system for bug reports. Actually there is. When someone files a good bug, as opposed to one that requires more than trivial attention due to significant missing or invalid information, achieving fixed status is an informal statement that the filer's effort was valuable. It getting duped to a newer bug that isn't materially different in quality is an informal statement that the filer's effort was not appreciated, thus the subject. So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? When I get a list of all bugs I filed, there's nothing AFAICT that can tell me whether a dupe to a newer is really a fixed - there's no way to get into a buglist the status of a bug duped to. Thus the report misleads about the quality of effort put forth, a significant part of which is ensuring against filing a duplicate by competent searching prior to filing. When anyone is attempting to assess the overall efficiency of Bugzilla, one aspect is the open time. Duping to newer misleads about this too. It shouldn't happen unless the newer is clearly better. 50+ CCs, some of which are from dupes of newer bugs, and little metoo or other noise, should be a pretty good condition that a bug is good enough that justification for duping to a newer should be overwhelming to be allowed. Plus https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 14:33 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/11/09 08:45 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed: There isn't a prize system for bug reports. Actually there is. When someone files a good bug, as opposed to one that requires more than trivial attention due to significant missing or invalid information, achieving fixed status is an informal statement that the filer's effort was valuable. It getting duped to a newer bug that isn't materially different in quality is an informal statement that the filer's effort was not appreciated, thus the subject. You may interpret it this way, but with my maintainer hat on, I can tell you it's simply not how most maintainers look at things. Maintainers want to fix bugs in the most efficient way possible. They're not thinking in terms of passing judgments and handing out prizes to the bug reporters; there is no judgment on the initial reporter implicit in their duping decisions. Just as Lubomir noted when he did this particular dupe: he didn't say anything about the quality of the *initial reports*. He preferred the newer bug because it had fewer messy side discussions and useless +1 comments. In this particular case we can confidently say that, based on direct evidence, your interpretation of the duplication decision as an implicit judgment on the quality of the initial bug report is incorrect. In the general case, I think we can still confidently say, given the priorities and workflow of most maintainers, that your interpretation of duplication decisions in general as being conscious implicit judgements on the qualities of the initial reports is also usually incorrect. So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? When I get a list of all bugs I filed, there's nothing AFAICT that can tell me whether a dupe to a newer is really a fixed - there's no way to get into a buglist the status of a bug duped to. Thus the report misleads about the quality of effort put forth, a significant part of which is ensuring against filing a duplicate by competent searching prior to filing. Sure. But this is only special to you from *your* perspective. From the disinterested bystander's perspective, this suckage is going to happen to all the reporters but one; whichever one happens to be the lucky one whose bug stays open isn't really important from the overall perspective, the ratio of people for whom the end result isn't perfect to people for whom it is does not change. Bugzilla is a long way from perfect, practically speaking it's best to recognize that it has limitations that you're going to have to deal with, and these do not reflect anyone being personally out to get you. When anyone is attempting to assess the overall efficiency of Bugzilla, one aspect is the open time. Duping to newer misleads about this too. Okay, that's an actual reasonable concrete objective point, and you're right. In practice, we run very few metrics on Bugzilla, so I don't think this is a huge issue in Fedora's case, but yes, that's one factor which should work in favor of duplicating to the oldest report when all other factors are equal. I wouldn't assign it as much weight as you do, but it's certainly a factor. It shouldn't happen unless the newer is clearly better. 50+ CCs, some of which are from dupes of newer bugs, and little metoo or other noise, should be a pretty good condition that a bug is good enough that justification for duping to a newer should be overwhelming to be allowed. Again, from the developer's perspective, metoos are usually a negative, not a positive. They just make it harder to find the *useful* input. A comment which provides information that helps to debug the problem is useful. A comment with an attached patch is really useful. A comment which says I'm having the same problem as the last 500 people to comment on this bug is usually not at all useful and just makes it harder to find the good comments. (It can be useful if a bug's been open for three years and you're not really sure whether it's still valid, but when 15 people have told you in the last two days that they're having the problem, a 16th person saying that they're also having it really isn't contributing anything helpful). Plus https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108983 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 again, yeah, Bugzilla sucks. But then, if you want to look at it logically, the sensible response to this bug is 'make the 'original' the bug with the largest number of subscribers', not 'make the 'original' the oldest bug'. The two are not always the same. And Lubomir likely wasn't even aware of the above bug when he did the duplicating. It seems most people aren't. So again, you have no reason to ascribe personal motivations. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net wrote: Actually there is. When someone files a good bug, as opposed to one that requires more than trivial attention due to significant missing or invalid information, achieving fixed status is an informal statement that the filer's effort was valuable. It getting duped to a newer bug that isn't materially different in quality is an informal statement that the filer's effort was not appreciated, thus the subject. I humbly disagree with this point of view and I'm pretty sure we have never documented this interpretation or expectation in anything set forth in the project level guidance around bug ticket activity. I don't know of a way to convince to change your person opinion on this, but its critical you realize that its most likely not a widely held one and thus you will continually find yourself in conflict with other people's workflows. So, once more for the cheap seats: *why* do you think closing an older bug as a dupe of a newer one is a respect issue? What's the big problem with it? When I get a list of all bugs I filed, there's nothing AFAICT that can tell me whether a dupe to a newer is really a fixed - there's no way to get into a buglist the status of a bug duped to. Thus the report misleads about the quality of effort put forth, a significant part of which is ensuring against filing a duplicate by competent searching prior to filing. This buglist reporting workflow deficiency is an argument against setting dupes at all for any bug ever and is not specific to the issue of how to competently choose how to set a duplicate tag among multiple bugs. Are you really trying to do a comprehensive assessment of _quality_ of bugzilla activity? I'd like to see a fully written up methodology around that. We may get a better idea of what your ultimately trying to achieve if you see your concerns about quality of effort inside the context of the larger assessment goals you are interested in. When anyone is attempting to assess the overall efficiency of Bugzilla, one aspect is the open time. Duping to newer misleads about this too. Is anyone actually attempting to do that at this point in time? -jef -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 11/09/2010 07:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: In practice, we run very few metrics on Bugzilla This is the problem we should be gather all kinds of bug metrics and general component activity from bugzilla. This is very vital information for QA group to harvest and have. ( without it we cant find the areas were both parties can do better. ) And since there is general will amongst reporters that this information is collected this I maintainers if they are opposed that this information will be harvested? If so why? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 21:31 +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 11/09/2010 07:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: In practice, we run very few metrics on Bugzilla This is the problem we should be gather all kinds of bug metrics and general component activity from bugzilla. This is very vital information for QA group to harvest and have. ( without it we cant find the areas were both parties can do better. ) And since there is general will amongst reporters that this information is collected this I maintainers if they are opposed that this information will be harvested? If so why? no-one's opposed to it. Just no-one's actually stepping up to do it. We've had three attempts so far within bugzappers to get metrics going, and it never works out, because no-one follows through. Demanding that it happen is not going to magically make it happen; someone has to do the work. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 11/09/2010 09:40 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 21:31 +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 11/09/2010 07:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: In practice, we run very few metrics on Bugzilla This is the problem we should be gather all kinds of bug metrics and general component activity from bugzilla. This is very vital information for QA group to harvest and have. ( without it we cant find the areas were both parties can do better. ) And since there is general will amongst reporters that this information is collected this I maintainers if they are opposed that this information will be harvested? If so why? no-one's opposed to it. Just no-one's actually stepping up to do it. We've had three attempts so far within bugzappers to get metrics going, and it never works out, because no-one follows through. Demanding that it happen is not going to magically make it happen; someone has to do the work. Do you have any links to the bugzappers discussions about this and the code that was used in these attempts? Do we have access to bugzilla clone to test against? JBG -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/09/2010 04:05 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 11/09/2010 09:40 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 21:31 +, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 11/09/2010 07:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: In practice, we run very few metrics on Bugzilla This is the problem we should be gather all kinds of bug metrics and general component activity from bugzilla. This is very vital information for QA group to harvest and have. ( without it we cant find the areas were both parties can do better. ) And since there is general will amongst reporters that this information is collected this I maintainers if they are opposed that this information will be harvested? If so why? no-one's opposed to it. Just no-one's actually stepping up to do it. We've had three attempts so far within bugzappers to get metrics going, and it never works out, because no-one follows through. Demanding that it happen is not going to magically make it happen; someone has to do the work. Do you have any links to the bugzappers discussions about this and the code that was used in these attempts? Do we have access to bugzilla clone to test against? JBG For the latest attempt at getting some useful 'metric' data from bugzilla see: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers/Metrics and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:BugZappers/Metrics (Those pages are fairly specific to trying to quantify the amount/impact of the work that the triagers are doing.) Additionally, bugzilla's report.cgi is worth looking at. As an example: The number of 'Triaged' Bugs CLOSED in the last 90days with breakdown by resolution[1]. - -Jeff 1: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/report.cgi?x_axis_field=resolutionquery_format=report-tableclassification=Fedoraproduct=Fedorabug_status=CLOSEDchfieldfrom=-90dchfieldto=Nowchfield=bug_statuschfieldvalue=CLOSEDformat=tableaction=wrapfield0-0-0=keywordstype0-0-0=substringvalue0-0-0=Triaged -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJM2hslAAoJEBHSWqGjRJu75jYH/3Vf58f/gAR4eQ29QvAkyRPs HrQdfIXaKzpBF+7PbXyjQ1Ab0kpZ2Rr1aK/tYg6+O7XCG+HAfFQiLs9vm8MEscJx lJ896zht2+daTzeiNp8L4OwX9JjCeuf7XQaMualK+/EruuHVq/mONyaa1MNMGl/k LoQsGIFEH19eoI0hK7p8AASN5YQhQyp7mbyPJlyXersrg7W8uzmYfk9P7KFUqACE V0CX9nLXI863phEIcTZrfqSUwNd1cGL1WyFR6WZp029ArFaYQMp3FqNXtvKQIJl1 UIrxW4EFrODCsFplVTkNjcXp9sC8YWIwKg2N+wEug8b+zVpzugCdRalmz/DWMgY= =yYVL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:07:08 -0500, Digimer wrote: Try popping by IRC and asking why a particular bug hasn't been acted on. Does that scale? If it's a lack of time, then there you go. I wouldn't expect somebody to lurk on IRC then and visit a ticket just because someone else makes some noise. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
2010/11/8 Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=623742 was duped to newer bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624297 The older: [sorry, skipped] 4-has 48 CCs This is a known issue in (at least in RedHat's) bugzilla. If you close bug A as duplicate of another bug B, then all your CC-ed to bug A users won't re-subscribed to bug B. Bugzilla is evil. -- With best regards, Peter Lemenkov. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
2010/11/8 Peter Lemenkov lemen...@gmail.com: 2010/11/8 Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=623742 was duped to newer bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624297 The older: [sorry, skipped] 4-has 48 CCs This is a known issue in (at least in RedHat's) bugzilla. If you close bug A as duplicate of another bug B, then all your CC-ed to bug A users won't re-subscribed to bug B. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 -- With best regards, Peter Lemenkov. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 11:58 +0300, Peter Lemenkov wrote: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634 Added comments with the *latest* example. The bug last had a reply from the maintainer in 2009. Somehow, he called it a feature request rather than a bug[1]. *shrug* [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=523634#c2 -- Thanks! Regards, Ankur https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha FranciscoD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 2010/11/08 18:01 (GMT-0500) Adam Williamson composed: The duping was done by Lubomir, as he was providing a patch to fix the problem (which is, lest we forget, what we all wanted in the first place). He explained his reasoning right in the comment. I don't know why you think it's a great idea to blow this up into a huge issue on a mailing list. His explanation useless chatter was nothing but an excuse. There was no material useless chatter there. Useless chatter is complaining, advocating, or asking for personal support, none of which was in the original, which, unlike the latter, dates the origin of the problem more accurately. Lubomir made exactly zero comments in the original prior to duping it, a likely indicator that he didn't bother to even look for it before duping, or check to see its longer history included the newer bug's content. A case where one other community member did something you disagree with while he was busy actually fixing the bug really doesn't qualify, IMO. If the policy can't be clear that _reasonable_ justification is prerequisite to duping an older bug to a newer, and some semblance of enforcement applied, then I don't need to file any more bugs, or test any further. I don't see why many others would either, or why triagers would waste their time. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 19:51 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: If the policy can't be clear that _reasonable_ justification is prerequisite to duping an older bug to a newer, and some semblance of enforcement applied, then I don't need to file any more bugs, or test any further. I don't see why many others would either, or why triagers would waste their time. So, again: Lubomir fixed the bug. The bug is fixed. That gets him a lot of leeway in my world. One person fixing the bug is a lot more use than 500 people reporting it and going 'what is the status of this bug?!' I don't see why this is a huge deal. There's a bug in Bugzilla that it doesn't merge CC lists when you dupe bugs, yeah. Aside from that? What's the huge problem with duping an older bug to a newer one? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 2010/11/08 18:06 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed: I don't see why this is a huge deal. There's a bug in Bugzilla that it doesn't merge CC lists when you dupe bugs, yeah. Aside from that? What's the huge problem with duping an older bug to a newer one? Like I said, let the people who actually fix bugs both find them and file them. There's no point in anyone else bothering. Triagers won't be necessary, saving everyone time, cluttering the tracker with fewer dupes. And, they'll always look, according to buglists, as if they were fixed more quickly than they really were. Everybody wins, except those who can't fix bugs but would like to feel their testing and reporting serves a purpose. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 21:30 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/11/08 18:06 (GMT-0800) Adam Williamson composed: I don't see why this is a huge deal. There's a bug in Bugzilla that it doesn't merge CC lists when you dupe bugs, yeah. Aside from that? What's the huge problem with duping an older bug to a newer one? Like I said, let the people who actually fix bugs both find them and file them. There's no point in anyone else bothering. Triagers won't be necessary, saving everyone time, cluttering the tracker with fewer dupes. And, they'll always look, according to buglists, as if they were fixed more quickly than they really were. Everybody wins, except those who can't fix bugs but would like to feel their testing and reporting serves a purpose. That's just a rant that doesn't answer my question at all. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
Hello, On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 21:30 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: Like I said, let the people who actually fix bugs both find them and file them. You need to rethink this. Maintainers(ones who actually fix the bugs) already have enough work on their hands. Adding look, manage multiple copies of the same error and comment them all will just add to their workload. Triagers are there for a reason. Bug triaging is there for a reason. The current work flow is good. The only thing that happened incorrectly here was that bugzilla did not add CCs to the bug. There's a bug filed for this, as Peter already mentioned. A bug that has more comments from reporters will not have more priority than one that has more comments from the maintainer. Maintainers need one bug report per issue. Multiple bug reports are no extra help. As long as even one bug report with good info exists, and the maintainer is aware of it, I see no problem anywhere. -- Thanks! Regards, Ankur https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha FranciscoD -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 2010/11/09 07:39 (GMT+0100) David Tardon composed: Btw, maybe you should look at the proverb in your signature and try to apply it to yourself. Because in this thread you have neither shown understanding nor used pleasant words. The words I used are not inherently unpleasant, only unpleasant because people don't want to hear the truth they report. Testers who can't fix bugs are treated like lepers compared to those who provide patches, deserving of less than equal respect. As a Bugzilla user for a decade or so, I understand this very well. It's a constant battle to remember to spend enough time rereading before sending in order to prevent inappropriate language to escape, particularly as given so little respect in the whole test and bug process overall (e.g. not only the duping of good older bugs to newer bugs, but Bugzilla itself: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638726 ). As the subject says, I see no point in further bother. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/rudeweb.html -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=623742 was duped to newer bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624297 The older: 1-began life with equivalent summary: system-config-display fails 2-contains same comment 0 information as the latter 3-was directed to be filed by triagers on IRC 4-has 48 CCs If bug fixers plan to only fix bugs they themselves file or randomly choose to attach patches to, there's no need for anyone else to file bugs, as the fixers obviously can't be bothered to see what bugs already have been filed. They might as well be the only testers too. If I was a regular triager in Redhat's Bugzilla, this would put an end to it. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why should I ever bother filing another bug?
On 10-11-07 07:00 PM, Felix Miata wrote: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=623742 was duped to newer bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624297 The older: 1-began life with equivalent summary: system-config-display fails 2-contains same comment 0 information as the latter 3-was directed to be filed by triagers on IRC 4-has 48 CCs If bug fixers plan to only fix bugs they themselves file or randomly choose to attach patches to, there's no need for anyone else to file bugs, as the fixers obviously can't be bothered to see what bugs already have been filed. They might as well be the only testers too. If I was a regular triager in Redhat's Bugzilla, this would put an end to it. I've personally filed a good number of bugs that have, in fact, been resolved and closed. I've also posted bugs that have never been acted on. Generally, the more detailed your bug is, specifically in regards to how to reproduce it, the more likely it is that it will be acted on. I suspect that most of the bugs that are submitted by redhat folks themselves get dealt with because they know what other developers want and need in a bug. Try popping by IRC and asking why a particular bug hasn't been acted on. If it's a lack of time, then there you go. If it's a lack of information though, then someone might be able to help guide you as to what else is needed. You can also reply to your own bugs asking for follow-up. Regardless, I am certain that the developers appreciate people who attempt to submit bugs more than users who don't even bother. -- Digimer E-Mail: digi...@alteeve.com AN!Whitepapers: http://alteeve.com Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
