rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:11:06PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: A typical developer wants the dependencies of the software they are working on to be _very_ up to date - probably not the upstream development version, but the upstream maintenance version with _all_ current bug fixes. Waiting 6 months for a bug fix does not make sense - at that point the developer would be tempted to build the new version locally. [...] Saying use rawhide is not helpful, because rawhide is very often broken. I've been running rawhide as my primary desktop OS at work for a couple of years now. During that time, it's only broken so as to cause me as much as a couple of hours work twice. That seems like a small price to pay for being on the extreme leading edge as you describe. And now with the no frozen rawhide feature, I expect it to be even more stable. A stable release that breaks a specific component for a few days is acceptable - if this is not a component one uses for development, it doesn't matter; if this is such a component, one knows about it well enough to be able to revert an update or to contribute a fix. There you go! That's what we have in Rawhide. Maybe the problem here is that we need to market Rawhide better to Fedora developers. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
Matthew Miller píše v Po 30. 08. 2010 v 18:56 -0400: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:11:06PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: A typical developer wants the dependencies of the software they are working on to be _very_ up to date - probably not the upstream development version, but the upstream maintenance version with _all_ current bug fixes. Waiting 6 months for a bug fix does not make sense - at that point the developer would be tempted to build the new version locally. [...] Saying use rawhide is not helpful, because rawhide is very often broken. I've been running rawhide as my primary desktop OS at work for a couple of years now. During that time, it's only broken so as to cause me as much as a couple of hours work twice. That seems like a small price to pay for being on the extreme leading edge as you describe. Curious. My experience from using the latest Fedora (often updating on the date of GA release) is very similar. I sometimes wonder what the other users of Fedora are doing that the updates firehose is such a problem... A stable release that breaks a specific component for a few days is acceptable - if this is not a component one uses for development, it doesn't matter; if this is such a component, one knows about it well enough to be able to revert an update or to contribute a fix. There you go! That's what we have in Rawhide. No, for rawhide to really be useful, it must be possible to put unfinished system-wide changes in there: it would be pretty much impossible to integrate systemd into the distribution on a branch, and to add it into rawhide only after everything works 100%. rawhide is here to allow integration of 80% working but not finished code, and polishing it. As such, it is unavoidably dangerous, even if it may often work out fine. What I was talking about originally is not 80% working but not finished, but as far as we know 100% working, but not tested by a RHEL-equivalent QA process including two beta releases over 6 months. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 15:56, Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:11:06PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: A typical developer wants the dependencies of the software they are working on to be _very_ up to date - probably not the upstream development version, but the upstream maintenance version with _all_ current bug fixes. Waiting 6 months for a bug fix does not make sense - at that point the developer would be tempted to build the new version locally. [...] Saying use rawhide is not helpful, because rawhide is very often broken. I've been running rawhide as my primary desktop OS at work for a couple of years now. During that time, it's only broken so as to cause me as much as a couple of hours work twice. That seems like a small price to pay for being on the extreme leading edge as you describe. And now with the no frozen rawhide feature, I expect it to be even more stable. I've moved from being a rawhide junkie to a koji junkie. I've been in that mode for the last five or six years. My experience has been that rawhide is most unstable just around alpha time. There are typically lots of regressions in rawhide. I can expect that (suspend/resume, printing, usb key mounting, X, compix, control panels, et al) are broken on a regular basis. Maybe we should start a self-help group for those of us with this affliction. I'm more surprised that the package owners haven't found a better way to make use of us yet. I choose to live with the regressions. Most users of Fedora are probably interested in a far more stable system. darrell -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 01:05:34AM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote: No, for rawhide to really be useful, it must be possible to put unfinished system-wide changes in there: it would be pretty much impossible to integrate systemd into the distribution on a branch, and to add it into rawhide only after everything works 100%. rawhide is here to allow integration of 80% working but not finished code, and polishing it. As such, it is unavoidably dangerous, even if it may often work out fine. Well, actually, see some earlier posts here on this. As it's currently working, things aren't pushed to Rawhide after they've been through F14 testing. -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 04:30:44PM -0700, darrell pfeifer wrote: I've moved from being a rawhide junkie to a koji junkie. I've been in that mode for the last five or six years. My experience has been that rawhide is most unstable just around alpha time. That is no longer the case. See: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_Frozen_Rawhide_Proposal -- Matthew Miller mat...@mattdm.org Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: rawhide rocks! [was Re: fedora mission (was Re: systemd and changes)]
On Mon, 2010-08-30 at 19:52 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 04:30:44PM -0700, darrell pfeifer wrote: I've moved from being a rawhide junkie to a koji junkie. I've been in that mode for the last five or six years. My experience has been that rawhide is most unstable just around alpha time. That is no longer the case. See: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_Frozen_Rawhide_Proposal Actually, you want No_Frozen_Rawhide_Implementation. I made a link just now from No_Frozen_Rawhide since there's no way I would have thought to add Proposal or Implementation on the end when looking it up and I knew it was there to start with. Jon. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
