Re: pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
2012/5/18 Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.com wrote: xset q tells that in 11.3.1, the pointer is configured with the values: acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 This takes 2, 3 and sometimes 4 swipes to move across the screen. Strange! That's one of our explicit tests -- we test that a quick diagonal swipe can get you across the screen from one corner to another. Falling a tad short may be acceptable, this has to be balanced with aiming for small UI elements in eToys, for example. Perhaps I over-exagerated. But still takes 2 (and a bit) quick swipes to go from corner to corner. Of course, with slow swipes, it can take many tries to move across the screen :-) I am sure that if this was widely broken we'd have been up in arms about it way earlier. I'm interested to know about your XO -- model and TP model, perhaps in some cases our touchpad settings are bad. Ok, perhaps this is the problem. I actually have a B4, sorry for calling it XO-1 (I as I have refered to it forever)... Am I the only one getting this experience then? See the wikipage at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Touchpad/Testing -- it also has additional diagnostic tests that can shed light on the topic. Some of the times after doing the rolling finger test the cursor became wonky and then fixed itself after a few seconds. And the corner to corner sweep fails as well of course. Eduardo cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
2012/5/22 Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com: On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, perhaps this is the problem. I actually have a B4, sorry for calling it XO-1 (I as I have refered to it forever)... Am I the only one getting this experience then? So XO-1 B4? Can you confirm as per http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Touchpad/Testing what touchpad is being recognized? cat /sys/bus/serio/drivers/psmouse/serio*/protocol gives: OLPC HGPK Can you propose alternative xset values for acceleration? Just changing the threshold to 0, so 'xset m 7/4 0' improves a lot the general feeling, but swiping from corner to corner, while improved, still takes more than just one swipe. I'll be testing more values. Eduardo cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- Software Architect - OLPC - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
2012/5/17 Paul Fox p...@laptop.org: eduardo h. silva wrote: xset q tells that in 11.3.1, the pointer is configured with the values: acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 This takes 2, 3 and sometimes 4 swipes to move across the screen. It's quite a difference with a typical touchpad on bigger laptops, and although the experience can't be duplicated because we can't expect kids to be already highly trained with a touchpad, I think it could be improved. I think the balance is to have a larger threshold, so that slow movements are allways acurate, and a higher acceleration, so that movements across the screen are sufficiently fast (very important in Sugar to access the frame for example). Managing to drop down the amount of swipes needed to move across the screen (like 2 swipes) would be excellent and more in par with the older pre 11.3.* behavior. so you think it was better, previously? i wonder what has changed. those xset values were chosen specifically to be appropriate for the original ALPS touchpad on XO-1. it's entirely possible, now that we're two laptops and at least as many touchpads beyond that, those numbers are incorrect. I meant to compare between the setting of the builds back in 2008 and 2011 when I began using the XO after a hiatus of years. I found a discussion started about the change from acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 to acceleration 7/4 threshold: 0) (http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2010-January/027245.html ). A few messages later, it's shown in xset man page: If the `threshold' parameter is provided and 0, the `acceleration' parameter will be used in the exponent of a more natural and continous formula, giving precise control for slow motion but big reach for fast motion, and a progresive transition for motions in between. Recommended `acceleration' value in this case is 3/2 to 2, but not limited to that range Which is exactly what I was looking for. A bit later, Richard A. Smith tells: 2 of the apps that our deployments spend a lot of time in are scratch and etoys. Both of these are not completely sugarized apps and thus some of the UI elements on the 200 dpi screen are quite small and hard to use with a fast accel. Though I don't know if he used higher acceleration values, or with threshold set to 0. So the thread ends with: Find someone with kids and figure out whats the best settings for them. Next time I am with my nephews I'll be sure to do this, but I already find threshold 0 a lot better. Perhaps the problem Richard was having could be solved with a lower acceleration, like 3/2, but still with threshold 0. Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
2012/5/17 Paul Fox p...@laptop.org: eduardo h. silva wrote: 2012/5/17 Paul Fox p...@laptop.org: eduardo h. silva wrote: xset q tells that in 11.3.1, the pointer is configured with the values: acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 This takes 2, 3 and sometimes 4 swipes to move across the screen. It's quite a difference with a typical touchpad on bigger laptops, and although the experience can't be duplicated because we can't expect kids to be already highly trained with a touchpad, I think it could be improved. I think the balance is to have a larger threshold, so that slow movements are allways acurate, and a higher acceleration, so that movements across the screen are sufficiently fast (very important in Sugar to access the frame for example). Managing to drop down the amount of swipes needed to move across the screen (like 2 swipes) would be excellent and more in par with the older pre 11.3.* behavior. so you think it was better, previously? i wonder what has changed. those xset values were chosen specifically to be appropriate for the original ALPS touchpad on XO-1. it's entirely possible, now that we're two laptops and at least as many touchpads beyond that, those numbers are incorrect. I meant to compare between the setting of the builds back in 2008 and 2011 when I began using the XO after a hiatus of years. I found a discussion started about the change from acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 to acceleration 7/4 threshold: 0) (http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2010-January/027245.html ). A few messages later, it's shown in xset man page: If the `threshold' parameter is provided and 0, the `acceleration' parameter will be used in the exponent of a more natural and continous formula, giving precise control for slow motion but big reach for fast motion, and a progresive transition for motions in between. Recommended `acceleration' value in this case is 3/2 to 2, but not limited to that range Which is exactly what I was looking for. A bit later, Richard A. Smith tells: 2 of the apps that our deployments spend a lot of time in are scratch and etoys. Both of these are not completely sugarized apps and thus some of the UI elements on the 200 dpi screen are quite small and hard to use with a fast accel. Though I don't know if he used higher acceleration values, or with threshold set to 0. So the thread ends with: Find someone with kids and figure out whats the best settings for them. Next time I am with my nephews I'll be sure to do this, but I already find threshold 0 a lot better. Perhaps the problem Richard was having could be solved with a lower acceleration, like 3/2, but still with threshold 0. i'm sure you're right, and i think we had consensus around that several years ago. it's my belief (after skimming old mail) that the very earliest X servers shipped on XO-1 a) did treat a threshold of 0 as special, but b) did not do it correctly. so using '1' at that time was deliberate. but after a time we (i, certainly) agreed that we should be using 0. we also had a discussion about lowering the 7/4 -- at the time i thought 3/2 was too slow, and suggested 165/100, but i suspect that that's splitting hairs. (i.e. 1.5 vs. 1.65). after verifying, we should at least fix the '0' threshold as a bug, in 12.1.0. If it's to be fixed, can't it be changed for the upcoming 11.3.1 as well? Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
2012/5/18 Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.com: 2012/5/17 Paul Fox p...@laptop.org: eduardo h. silva wrote: 2012/5/17 Paul Fox p...@laptop.org: eduardo h. silva wrote: xset q tells that in 11.3.1, the pointer is configured with the values: acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 This takes 2, 3 and sometimes 4 swipes to move across the screen. It's quite a difference with a typical touchpad on bigger laptops, and although the experience can't be duplicated because we can't expect kids to be already highly trained with a touchpad, I think it could be improved. I think the balance is to have a larger threshold, so that slow movements are allways acurate, and a higher acceleration, so that movements across the screen are sufficiently fast (very important in Sugar to access the frame for example). Managing to drop down the amount of swipes needed to move across the screen (like 2 swipes) would be excellent and more in par with the older pre 11.3.* behavior. so you think it was better, previously? i wonder what has changed. those xset values were chosen specifically to be appropriate for the original ALPS touchpad on XO-1. it's entirely possible, now that we're two laptops and at least as many touchpads beyond that, those numbers are incorrect. I meant to compare between the setting of the builds back in 2008 and 2011 when I began using the XO after a hiatus of years. I found a discussion started about the change from acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 to acceleration 7/4 threshold: 0) (http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2010-January/027245.html ). A few messages later, it's shown in xset man page: If the `threshold' parameter is provided and 0, the `acceleration' parameter will be used in the exponent of a more natural and continous formula, giving precise control for slow motion but big reach for fast motion, and a progresive transition for motions in between. Recommended `acceleration' value in this case is 3/2 to 2, but not limited to that range Which is exactly what I was looking for. A bit later, Richard A. Smith tells: 2 of the apps that our deployments spend a lot of time in are scratch and etoys. Both of these are not completely sugarized apps and thus some of the UI elements on the 200 dpi screen are quite small and hard to use with a fast accel. Though I don't know if he used higher acceleration values, or with threshold set to 0. So the thread ends with: Find someone with kids and figure out whats the best settings for them. Next time I am with my nephews I'll be sure to do this, but I already find threshold 0 a lot better. Perhaps the problem Richard was having could be solved with a lower acceleration, like 3/2, but still with threshold 0. i'm sure you're right, and i think we had consensus around that several years ago. it's my belief (after skimming old mail) that the very earliest X servers shipped on XO-1 a) did treat a threshold of 0 as special, but b) did not do it correctly. so using '1' at that time was deliberate. but after a time we (i, certainly) agreed that we should be using 0. we also had a discussion about lowering the 7/4 -- at the time i thought 3/2 was too slow, and suggested 165/100, but i suspect that that's splitting hairs. (i.e. 1.5 vs. 1.65). after verifying, we should at least fix the '0' threshold as a bug, in 12.1.0. If it's to be fixed, can't it be changed for the upcoming 11.3.1 as well? P.S.- is there a script that is run when Sugar starts where I could place the xset command? So that I could the new 0 threshold setting run automatically, and thus use it without thinking about it and be able to get a better feeling of the behavior. Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
boot of os10 fails on XO-1, complaining of lack of space
After arriving my replacement charger, I decided to try the new 12.1.0 OS. os10 is the newest, but it's 1GB of size, which almost completely fills the internal space of the XO-1, failing to boot: dracut: Mounted root filesystem mtd0 mkdir: can't create directory '/sysroot/.private': No space left on device mkdir: can't create directory '/sysroot/security/.private': No space left on device System isn't partitioned, won't resize ln: /sysroot/versions/running: No space left on device Failure condition in initramfs dracut Warning: Signal caught! dracut Warning: Signal caught! Dropping to debug shell. /bin/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off dracut:/# Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
pointer (touchpad) aceleration and threshold too low in 11.3.* builds
xset q tells that in 11.3.1, the pointer is configured with the values: acceleration 7/4 threshold: 1 This takes 2, 3 and sometimes 4 swipes to move across the screen. It's quite a difference with a typical touchpad on bigger laptops, and although the experience can't be duplicated because we can't expect kids to be already highly trained with a touchpad, I think it could be improved. I think the balance is to have a larger threshold, so that slow movements are allways acurate, and a higher acceleration, so that movements across the screen are sufficiently fast (very important in Sugar to access the frame for example). Managing to drop down the amount of swipes needed to move across the screen (like 2 swipes) would be excellent and more in par with the older pre 11.3.* behavior. Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: boot of os10 fails on XO-1, complaining of lack of space
2012/5/16 Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.com wrote: After arriving my replacement charger, I decided to try the new 12.1.0 OS. os10 is the newest, but it's 1GB of size, which almost completely fills the internal space of the XO-1, failing to boot: dracut: Mounted root filesystem mtd0 mkdir: can't create directory '/sysroot/.private': No space left on device mkdir: can't create directory '/sysroot/security/.private': No space left on device System isn't partitioned, won't resize ln: /sysroot/versions/running: No space left on device Failure condition in initramfs dracut Warning: Signal caught! dracut Warning: Signal caught! Dropping to debug shell. /bin/sh: can't access tty; job control turned off dracut:/# It's a known issue, please read the thread from the announcement, it will be fixed with the next release. Peter Thanks, I missed it. Eduardo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Grassroots-l] World scriptures
I would vote for the The Nag Hammadi Library (early christian lost gospels) to be included as well in this all-encompassing religions/theologies activity: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html . Eduardoa 2008/10/18 Edward Cherlin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 6:40 AM, Lisa Caroline Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any other sites we could use which would be less biased in how they define what religions? We don't have to use their site at all if we don't like their attitude. AFAIK the Sword software is under a Free license, and we can just put our stuff where we like. I imagine some might be seriously offended by considering Buddhism a cult, and in general OLPC shouldn't find itself in the position of endorsing one religion over another. I wouldn't list my work on that page. I would ask for a respectful page for non-Christian religions. Choosing the immediate expediency of a convenient site over the mission of OLPC could very well cost OLPC all kinds of support. Do we really want to open ourselves to charges of being underhanded Christian missionaries? By posting non-Christian scriptures? Do you really think people will be that confused? I imagine there might be some countries which are already challenging for OLPC to work in, and this could make it significantly harder in certain conditions. Let us not borrow trouble, but inquire whether this is so. From the crosswire.org site: ---begin quote--- About Us The CrossWire Bible Society is an organization with the purpose to sponsor and provide a place for engineers and others to come and collaborate on free, open-source projects aimed at furthering the Kingdom of our God. We are also a resource pool to other Bible societies and Christian organizations that can't afford --or don't feel it's their place-- to maintain a quality programming staff in house. We provide them with a number of tools that assist them with reaching their domain with Christ. ---end quote--- My $0.02, Lisa Good questions. Thank you, Lisa. On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Jeffrey Kesselman wrote: 2008/10/16 Sebastian Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED]: E The link http://www.crosswire.org/sword/publisher/index.jsp seems to suggest they would be open, for at least putting it on the Cult / Unorthodox module add-on section. The irony being that this is a world-project and, buy the numbers, when comapred with say, Buddhism, Christianity is the cult/unorthodox religion. Now, now. No need for snark. JK ___ Grassroots mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots ___ Grassroots mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots -- Don't panic.--HHGTTG, Douglas Adams fivethirtyeight.com, 3bluedudes.com Obama still moving ahead in EC! http://www.obamapedia.org/page/Smears Join us! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai For the children Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज ) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. ___ Grassroots mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Grassroots-l] World scriptures
You're right, I was actually just pointing to. Eduardo 2008/10/18 Edward Cherlin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would vote for the The Nag Hammadi Library (early christian lost gospels) to be included as well in this all-encompassing religions/theologies activity: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html . Are you putting your hand up? Votes don't count, only volunteers. Eduardoa -- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज ) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Memory pressure (Re: Signed candidate-765 and gg-765-2 builds available for testing.)
Don't forget cpu pressure, I've had freezes which need a forcefull shutdown because of it. One example is installing Scratch from the wiki. When it reaches the point of unzipping, it makes the system slow. If you happen to have some activity also doing something intensive (like a Browse instance rendering a complicated webpage) the UI freezes. Sometimes waiting works, other times it doesn't. Eduardo 2008/9/27 Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Since everyone major concern is memory pressure especially with Browse, I did some comparison tests with Update.1. The results are somewhat surprising: os711 + g1g1 activity pack Startup: free 127 mb Min Browse: free 91 mb Max Browse: free 61 mb gg-765-2 Startup: free 129 mb Min Browse: free 91 mb Max Browse: free 63 mb Notes: * I have not repeated the tests yet (I intend to do so), so there is the possibility of measurement errors. From my experience so far I'd say +/- 5 mb. * Free memory is measured with free, after having dropped the caches with echo 3 /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches * Min Browse is free memory just after having started browse, no navigation. * Max Browse is the maximum amount of memory I could get Browse to use while navigating randomly inside wikipedia (starting from Moon). Browse memory usage normally grows up quickly when you load the first few pages and then it stabilizes and does not grow anymore. * I tested on clean copy-nand installations of both images, without any reboot. Marco ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
Scott, I thought you came to the conclusion that there was no use for ordered tags. What changed your mind? Was it the abilty to browse hierarchical systems with the Journal? I also thought you came to the conclusion that turning directory names as tags alone worked. How would the results be different if you searched for: a/b a b b a ? I imagine it's your idea of having the journal be able to browse hierarchically external devices, and the current filesystem above /home/olpc/Journal ? I love your idea of showing tags along side the journal entries. Clicking them would add them to the current search. Of course, there would be a limit to how many are shown for space-sake. As to Ivin's point that he brought this ui design to pentagram in the past, and it was rejected for being too complicated, I don't understand why they thought that. Having meta-tags (a tag which collects various tags, akin to dynamic virtual folders) and tags visible on the left would make: The most popular tags visible Tagging could be done by dnd object entries to the left-sided tags Clicking on the tags would add them to the search This seems like an easier taggin Journal to use, since tag management isn't hidden on the detailed view only. And if need be, the left tags pane could be toggled on/off by some 'tag' button. I hope Eben takes a look at your ui proposal and give it his Sugar love and polish to it :) Eduardo Eduardo 2008/9/23 Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 C. Scott Ananian wrote: | On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- | Hash: SHA1 | | C. Scott Ananian wrote: | | A hand-drawn proposal for what a Journal supporting directory | | traversal as well as tag space exploration is in the attached PDF. | | Discussion welcome! | | Could you please point me to a description of the semantics for these | ordered tags? Since I do not know how the tags are meant to work, I | cannot provide any feedback on the UI. | | Previous discussion: | http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/sugar/2008-September/008432.html | | Briefly: in addition to specifying multiple tags as a b c you can | also separate some of the tags with slashes, like a/b c. A search | for a/b only turns up entries tagged a/b not entries tagged b/a | or a b, although a search for a b turns up all of them. OK, so if I understand you correctly, you are not actually adding any semantics at all to the tags. What you are saying is that I can tag objects with arbitrary strings that may include the / character, and then filter objects by substring search on their tags. - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjZWOsACgkQUJT6e6HFtqRBpgCfd+Gxdi1Jfmam1++tTZLtyiBP d60AniDjqESTQAMD3H+2/TYHYl36teI1 =WI64 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
Ah, so that's why you separate these legacy-hierarchical files with a light grey slash (/) . So that a kid who only knows the Journal tagging world can ignore it, and users who have know the hierarchical world can understand it and make advance usage of that knowledge when transfering from or browsing hierarchical filesystems. Goof idea! Eduardo 2008/9/23 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:00 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Briefly: in addition to specifying multiple tags as a b c you can | also separate some of the tags with slashes, like a/b c. A search | for a/b only turns up entries tagged a/b not entries tagged b/a | or a b, although a search for a b turns up all of them. OK, so if I understand you correctly, you are not actually adding any semantics at all to the tags. What you are saying is that I can tag objects with arbitrary strings that may include the / character, and then filter objects by substring search on their tags. If you mount a USB key, and it has files in Music/Bach/Disc1, they appear in your journal's object view tagged as 'Music/Bach/Disc1'. They show up in searches for 'Music' and 'Bach'. If a legacy application saves a file to ~/Journal/cute/cats/my-picture.jpg, then my-picture.jpg shows up in the Journal tagged with 'cute/cats'. This is pretty much indistinguishable from being tagged cute cats, unless you happen to care enough to do ordered searches (young kids presumably would not). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
I also imagine that the Extra options menu would appear in the main toolbar in the Detailed view. And aditionally, like in one of eben's mockup, once a entry is checked in this list view, either the main toolbar changes to provide contextual actions (those you placed in that menu, copy, apply label, etc.), or a new menu appears bellow the main one with these options, so as not too loose the searching/filtering features which can be handy to have for various journal entries and still have handy the search and filtering features. Eduardo 2008/9/23 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: c. scott ananian wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, so that's why you separate these legacy-hierarchical files with a light grey slash (/) . So that a kid who only knows the Journal tagging world can ignore it, and users who have know the hierarchical world can understand it and make advance usage of that knowledge when transfering from or browsing hierarchical filesystems. Exactly. =) seems like acknowledging the path form of these directory-derived tags might also make working with devices for which no tag list has been, or can be, created. i.e., when you first install a large new USB stick, there will certainly be a delay before a tag index can or will be built. the grey slashes might be black during that time. paul =- paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
One extra thing that epiphany has that you didn't explicitelly showed in your mockup is, as you select/type tags, the most popular and/or recent section of the tag pane gets related tags thrown into its mix. Related tags are those which have been applied to objects along side the typed one(s). Also, what completion should be made for text typed in the Search box? I think it best to only suggest tags, not only to make it simple (and performant), but also because the object entries results could be seen as already being suggestions. As for labels, there are the static saved searches (which may be usefull to collecting for a frozen bunch of found entries), and dynamic saved searches (your fuzzy idea! Perhaps more usefull to power-users, but that is the point of sugar, let kids reach for the sky, right?). Eben also suggested once just adding an extra unique tag to a bunch of different objects, thus making a static collection of objects (So you would archive a project called Report on solar system, and this label would be added to photos, conversations, text, webpages, etc. which where part of it). Hope I've not confused this last part about collections and saved searches (it certainly is becoming confusing to me :) ) Eduardo 2008/9/24 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a little unsure what the Actions, Objects and Labels tabs do however. They are alternate views, or ways of organizing, the data. The action/object split is elaborated upon in the posted Journal designs. (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Toolbars) I'm not sure what Labels is. Scott? Yes, I drew the 'object' view. The 'action' view is at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Journal. I don't really know whether the tagging and filtering makes sense in the Action view, but I would like it to. Perhaps 'actions which include objects matching the current search' is what is displayed? The 'Labels' view is my fuzzy thinking about 'saved searches'. I'd like to be able to save any current search as a label to be applied; the 'Labels' view would let you view and edit those saved searches. I don't have a good design for that, and I'm certainly not certain it should be accorded equal weight with the 'object' and 'action' views. Ideas welcome. This is power-user territory: unless either I or someone else gets better ideas about how it would work, I'm inclined to omit it for now. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags (and does it nicely, with potential of improving of course). I made a screenshot slide-show of how tagging and the dynamic bookmarks menu based solely on tags work in Gnome's Epiphany browser. I hope this can be usefull to gather ideas for how the tagging system in the Journal could work. This could also be helpful if tagging in the future can be done within activities, so that they are easily, and thus more often, used. I show how in Epiphany: tags are searched; tags are suggested; pre-existing and new tags are added; tags are presented; and how tagged bookmarks are organized in a menu. The size is a bit big because of all the screenshots, it's 46.7 MB . C_scott uploaded it for me, at http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/eduardo-epiphany-tags.pdf Eduardo Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. For example, when you type 'fsf', both 'http://fsf.org/' and other things tagged with 'fsf' show up. This ties in with one of my frustrations with google's tag system: I have olpc, olpc-fedora, olpc-sugar, olpc-sugarlabs, etc tags in google, when what I really want is 'olpc/fedora', 'olpc/sugar', etc. Sometimes I want to see all olpc-related mail, sometimes only sugar-related olpc mail, etc. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. I don't follow this. Thinking in Journal terms, where currently the only access is through the search box, you could search for olpc sugarlabs to see your olpc-sugar e-mails, or olpc to see all which fit under olpc, i.e. olpc-fedora+olpc-sugarlabs+olpc-sugar. A search which doesn't work if you follow the containerization way of directories, would be if you searched just for sugarlabs . This would give you olpc-sugarlabs results, but also would find sugarlabs tagged entries which didn't belong to the olpc- root (like a logo of Sugarlabs, or some document about it). To go back to the way Gmail works, or should work, would be having the ability to assign multiple tags to each label, i.e., make them be virtual folders. So in your case you would have one which showed results with tags olpc, sugar, another olpc, fedora, and olpc, sugar, and olpc, sugarlabs. Then you could still have one just with tag olpc which would show all of the above, or you could just search for olpc tagged entries giving all of the above as well. So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. (Debian has had for some time debtags, which are a more advanced method of tagging objects originally developed for libraries, but I think is too formal for kids, since it would need for them to learn a new classification system to categorize their library of objects.) If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of files that are the result of a search (which can look very much like groups of files which are in a specific directory). Yep, I think this is a good idea to move files from a hierarchical system to a non hierarchical system (the Journal) and still reuse the information contained in that first organizational system. Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. I hope, like I said above, that virtual folders or saved searches (they're the same, just differently named) would replace static folders. From irc: (02:18:45 PM) C. Scott Ananian: by default searches will be confined to ~/Journal; the real question is how to search *outside* that directory. (02:18:51 PM) HoboPrimate: look at nautilus (02:19:04 PM) HoboPrimate: you see the directories as buttons. (02:19:19 PM) HoboPrimate: imagine seeing just a Journal button
Resp.: [sugar] Activities Portal: Proposal/suggestion
I hope such a UI be developers friendly, i.e., not just be a list of activities which seemingly where made by magic elves ;) , providing no extra information of who made them or how to contact them. 2008/5/19, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I know I've tossed this out several times before, but I do so again to be sure its in the backs of everyone's minds, at least once. I think the idea of creating an appcast, or an RSS feed with enclosures for bundles/updates, could be a clean way to handle the backend for such a service. Obviously, any number of websites could aggregate these, or display them with various UIs, but it might not need to be entirely centralized. I /really/ want to push forward the idea of a button within the UI for getting more activities. I encourage everyone to consider this use case as well when thinking about such a portal. This button will probably, in most cases, connect kids to the school server as a first level repository, but could just as easily connect to any such appcast, at the school, city, country, or even global level. If we actually support one or more of these feeds, then these all serve as sources for activity (and content?) bundles which can be displayed directly within the UI, in whatever interface suits, rather than requiring kids to go to this or that website. This technique can also be used to notify kids of updates to existing activities. Also, for what it's worth, one could foresee the capability of an activity such as Develop to set up local appcasts for activities that kids create as well; there could be one feed for all of Jimmy's activities. From this perspective, no server is even needed at all for get more activities to have some meaning, because the feed could come from others on the mesh as well. - Eben On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Jim Gettys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 23:56 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: Has anyone evaluated Remora (http://wiki.mozilla.org/Update:Remora) for this ? This is the software which powers addons.mozilla.org Cheers, Sayamindu It is clearly closest to what we need. Just haven't had the time to make it happen. If someone wants to go for it, please go ahead and try it; when you need access to install something (we have lots of bandwidth available), we'll be happy to help host it. - Jim On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:47 PM, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please wikify this! :) There is a note about something like this at the end of the doc page which would be good to link: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Documentation http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activity_portal On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been thinking about a better portal for downloading activities. I came up with some ideas, that I unfortunately don't have time to implement, but I would be happy to cheer someone on if they are inspired by this... It should be easy to upload an activity (specifically after the first time it has been done) - easier than uploading to the wiki. Activities should be categorised according to various properties, including: * The usual activity metadata from activity.info * Descriptions, as in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities * Category, as in http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities * Age ranges the activity is suitable for? (Possibly a Mature category for Doom?) * Competencies required: Pre-reading, reading, writing, ... * Development maturity - like sourceforge: planning / pre-alpha / alpha / beta / stable * Collaborative? - yes / no / only (for activities like Connect or Chat that don't function as a single user activity) * Requires Internet? (e.g. Gmail) * Compatible with: Sugar / Glucose version or OLPC release or distro release... e.g. Sugar = 0.81 * Additional Dependencies (e.g. video-chat-activity needs extra RPMs not in a build) * Tags * Languages - pulled out of the .xo * Low power friendly? * Related activities (for suites or alternatives) * Screenshot Activities have Releases, which have status similar to the development maturity - Suitable for: development / QA / public release etc - and of course the downloadable bundle for that release... The site should be internationalisable using standard i18n tools. Bonus points for: * Publishing a text page like http://mock.laptop.org/repos/local.update1/XOS/index.html at predictable URLs that lists activities compatible with a given release, for easy downloading with scripts etc. * Publishing the source in public distributed revision control, to get easy contributions to code / templates * Deployment on a system that is monitored and actively sysadmined * Implementation in a Python web framework, to tap into the existing developer
