Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
Hi All, This is a great thread! Very respectful but on point and addressing a core concern which needs to become a core competency. Mikus, James, Gary and the other lead developers who pull down joyride regularly are critical to the success of the next release. They proved it in the last release. I agree with James suggestion to get people to test new code in a private stream before they put it in joyride. Whether that can be done or not, we need to be more clear about when Mikus and the cutting edge team should try out the latest version. There will be bumps along the way, miscommunication, lost time and wasted bandwidth. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. As long as we continuously improve and we respect each others time and input, we'll get there. This is open source at its best and we have to become great at it for the success of the project. We're off to a good start but we need to see continual improvement on communicating status and quality of Joyride from now until release. 85 days until we send XO Software Release 9.1.0 to manufacturing! Thanks, Greg S ** Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:27:21 +1100 From: James Cameron qu...@laptop.org Subject: Re: 2588 - Journal unusable To: Chris Ball c...@laptop.org Cc: devel@lists.laptop.org Message-ID: 20081212042721.gg6...@us.netrek.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii G'day Chris, I'll give a partial line of reasoning response ... this is not complete, I'm short of time. Where I said public, I meant developer builds that can be used by other developers. I didn't mean to imply public builds for testing by non-developers. I mean the difference between what a developer does and what a developer releases. That isn't only OLPC originated code, that's also the choice of what RPMs to accept from outside. Accepting lots of RPMs at once is the same as making lots of code change. Why don't you have private build streams? That's what I can do with debxo, for instance ... build on my desktop, test on an XO, and then avoid releasing anything to the public until I've verified that what I've changed actually works. Why can't the build system be replicated so that each developer can test their change before releasing it? What is it about the build system that prevents it? I thought the build system was just a set of downloads and put-it-together processes. -- James Cameron mailto:qu...@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 03:27:21PM +1100, James Cameron wrote: G'day Chris, I'll give a partial line of reasoning response ... this is not complete, I'm short of time. Where I said public, I meant developer builds that can be used by other developers. I didn't mean to imply public builds for testing by non-developers. I mean the difference between what a developer does and what a developer releases. That isn't only OLPC originated code, that's also the choice of what RPMs to accept from outside. Accepting lots of RPMs at once is the same as making lots of code change. Why don't you have private build streams? That's what I can do with debxo, for instance ... build on my desktop, test on an XO, and then avoid releasing anything to the public until I've verified that what I've changed actually works. Why can't the build system be replicated so that each developer can test their change before releasing it? What is it about the build system that prevents it? I thought the build system was just a set of downloads and put-it-together processes. It can, it has been, and no one seems to care. See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Build_system http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Building_custom_images http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Puritan http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Commentaries/Releases_2#Practical_Matters for some historical records of the discussions. Michael ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:06 AM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Journal entries do not show the object icon - so they cannot be launched from. This SEVERE error has now lasted through five Joyride builds. joyride builds are automatic. 5 builds is about 1 day. Please be a little more patient. I assume from your language that this is a regression, i.e. it worked six joyride builds ago? This wasn't clear from your original mail, but is valuable info to have. Can you recall the most recent working version? I'm posting here, rather than write a ticket, as a way to get quickest to those who can do something about it. Or should users who have real XOs (rather than emulators) stop participating ? I'd suggest tickets for all bugs because they are harder to get lost (and soon will be triaged into appropriate priority). Then, for the important ones, feel free to raise extra attention on the mailing list. But even if you do both, you may have to wait more than 1 day for a fix. cheers, Daniel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
I assume from your language that this is a regression, i.e. it worked six joyride builds ago? This wasn't clear from your original mail, but is valuable info to have. Can you recall the most recent working version? The last time the Joyride Journal did not have the problem was build 2581 from 12/07. The problem showed up in build 2583 from 12/09. (Building of 2582 failed, without producing an image.) mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
I am just making a new snapshot release of sugar since there were some deps of sugar-toolkit on the sugar package. What is helpful when writing those emails is always to have a quick look at the logs. For the impatient ones: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=993286 Disclaimer: META-discussion follows Putting 'patience' into context: For an example of me getting impatient - having Journal unexpectedly stop working in Joyride (with no one seeming to care). For an example of me remaining patient, this list (of where F9 is apparently at a later level than F10) has been the output of Joyride's 'yum check-update' for ages: iproute.i386 2.6.27-1.fc9 nspr.i3864.7.3-1.1.fc9 pyabiword.i386 0.6.1-4.olpc3 python-telepathy.noarch 0.15.3-1.olpc3 sugar-artwork.i386 0.83.1-2.olpc3 sugar-base.i386 0.83.1-2.olpc3 sugar-journal.noarch 100-1.olpc3 xorg-x11-drv-evdev.i386 2.0.8-1.fc9 It is likely that the regression in Journal was caused by releasing sugar-toolkit without simultaneously releasing something which that package interacted with. But how is the person who gets the Joyride build to know what he needs to wait for? For taskID=993286 ?? mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Mikus Grinbergs mi...@bga.com wrote: I am just making a new snapshot release of sugar since there were some deps of sugar-toolkit on the sugar package. What is helpful when writing those emails is always to have a quick look at the logs. For the impatient ones: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=993286 Disclaimer: META-discussion follows Putting 'patience' into context: For an example of me getting impatient - having Journal unexpectedly stop working in Joyride (with no one seeming to care). For an example of me remaining patient, this list (of where F9 is apparently at a later level than F10) has been the output of Joyride's 'yum check-update' for ages: iproute.i386 2.6.27-1.fc9 nspr.i3864.7.3-1.1.fc9 pyabiword.i386 0.6.1-4.olpc3 python-telepathy.noarch 0.15.3-1.olpc3 sugar-artwork.i386 0.83.1-2.olpc3 sugar-base.i386 0.83.1-2.olpc3 sugar-journal.noarch 100-1.olpc3 xorg-x11-drv-evdev.i386 2.0.8-1.fc9 It is likely that the regression in Journal was caused by releasing sugar-toolkit without simultaneously releasing something which that package interacted with. But how is the person who gets the Joyride build to know what he needs to wait for? For taskID=993286 ?? Well, there are a few factors here: 1) Joyide is the development build stream. It doesn't by any means promise stability, in general. 2) It's early in the release cycle, so things are even more likely to break in fairly big ways. 3) As was mentioned, a few days to a week is really quite short, all things considered. We don't suggest that people who depend on day to day use of their XO use the joyride builds all the time. However, we certainly appreciate everyone who does help test it, since it's clearly best to catch any and all regressions as early as possible, as large or small as they might be. For that, I'm sure we all thank you! Of course, writing a ticket is /always/ the correct thing to do in such circumstances, so that we can adequately triage the bug, and ensure it doesn't get lost. Even if we don't get it fixed within a day or two, this will ensure that it does get fixed. Thanks! - Eben mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
2588 - Journal unusable
With 2590 the Joyride Journal problem of entries not displaying an icon (so those Activities can be re-launched) has been corrected. Thank you, mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, Eben Eliason wrote: On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Mikus Grinbergs mi...@bga.com wrote: It is likely that the regression in Journal was caused by releasing sugar-toolkit without simultaneously releasing something which that package interacted with. But how is the person who gets the Joyride build to know what he needs to wait for? For taskID=993286 ?? Well, there are a few factors here: 1) Joyide is the development build stream. It doesn't by any means promise stability, in general. 2) It's early in the release cycle, so things are even more likely to break in fairly big ways. 3) As was mentioned, a few days to a week is really quite short, all things considered. We don't suggest that people who depend on day to day use of their XO use the joyride builds all the time. However, we certainly appreciate everyone who does help test it, since it's clearly best to catch any and all regressions as early as possible, as large or small as they might be. For that, I'm sure we all thank you! when I was reporting errors a few weeks ago I got the response we're early in the process, don't bother to report anything until we have it stabilized a bit, we'll tell you when to start testing. I asked within the last week or so if it was time to start testing yet and was told no. David Lang Of course, writing a ticket is /always/ the correct thing to do in such circumstances, so that we can adequately triage the bug, and ensure it doesn't get lost. Even if we don't get it fixed within a day or two, this will ensure that it does get fixed. Thanks! - Eben mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 04:24:32PM -0500, Eben Eliason wrote: 1) Joyide is the development build stream. It doesn't by any means promise stability, in general. 2) It's early in the release cycle, so things are even more likely to break in fairly big ways. It is as if joyride is being used as part of developers' edit, compile and test sequence. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to do this sequence privately before a developer releases their changes to the public? Here's how it would happen ... the developer would build a new RPM, install it on a test unit, test that it works, *before* publishing the RPM for the joyride to pick up. If any failures occur due to integration against other developer changes, then stronger dependencies should be added. I'm also waiting for the joyride builds to be usable before I consume download data resources on them. -- James Cameronmailto:qu...@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
Hi James, Thanks for these thoughts. They seem like worthwhile goals, but I don't think we're likely to get there in practise. In specific: It is as if joyride is being used as part of developers' edit, compile and test sequence. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to do this sequence privately before a developer releases their changes to the public? So, first of all, this developers - public distinction is bogus; these aren't public builds, they're developer builds, and the only reason this seems odd is that most companies aren't doing their development in public. We _do not have_ a private build stream to use to stage builds in before letting you see them, and we don't want one. Here's how it would happen ... the developer would build a new RPM, install it on a test unit, test that it works, *before* publishing the RPM for the joyride to pick up. If any failures occur due to integration against other developer changes, then stronger dependencies should be added. Many of the people supplying RPMs that we end up using in Joyride are not writing them for the XO -- they might be Fedora updates, or even upstream Sugar changes that are tested under jhbuild and not the XO. We're going to have to deal with this as part of accepting that we (OLPC-the-company) don't write 90% of the code we ship, and don't have influence over the people who do write it, most of whom we'll never meet. Finally, I think it's a little unfair (but not in an offended kind of way) to expect us to have stable or even working Joyride builds at the moment: we just moved to Fedora 10, and it's always going to be the case that a bunch of stuff breaks and you have to go through the breakage piece by piece; this isn't a case where we'd have a working build if only some developer had tested her changes before throwing them over the wall into Joyride. I'm also waiting for the joyride builds to be usable before I consume download data resources on them. All that said, the desire to *have* a working build is a very reasonable thing, and that's why we're trying hard not to trick anyone into thinking that Joyride contains that build. If you have the time and bandwidth to help shake out the bugs, we'd love your help; if you don't, that's fine too and you should stay on 8.2.x for another few weeks. Hope that helps! - Chris. -- Chris Ball c...@laptop.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
G'day Chris, I'll give a partial line of reasoning response ... this is not complete, I'm short of time. Where I said public, I meant developer builds that can be used by other developers. I didn't mean to imply public builds for testing by non-developers. I mean the difference between what a developer does and what a developer releases. That isn't only OLPC originated code, that's also the choice of what RPMs to accept from outside. Accepting lots of RPMs at once is the same as making lots of code change. Why don't you have private build streams? That's what I can do with debxo, for instance ... build on my desktop, test on an XO, and then avoid releasing anything to the public until I've verified that what I've changed actually works. Why can't the build system be replicated so that each developer can test their change before releasing it? What is it about the build system that prevents it? I thought the build system was just a set of downloads and put-it-together processes. -- James Cameronmailto:qu...@us.netrek.org http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
2588 - Journal unusable
The Journal entries do not show the object icon - so they cannot be launched from. This SEVERE error has now lasted through five Joyride builds. I'm posting here, rather than write a ticket, as a way to get quickest to those who can do something about it. Or should users who have real XOs (rather than emulators) stop participating ? mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: 2588 - Journal unusable
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: The Journal entries do not show the object icon - so they cannot be launched from. This SEVERE error has now lasted through five Joyride builds. I'm posting here, rather than write a ticket, as a way to get quickest to those who can do something about it. Or should users who have real XOs (rather than emulators) stop participating ? we were told to stop participating a dozen or so joyrides ago, they will tell us when we should start testing again. David Lang ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
