Re: Autoreinstallation image is not signed.

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 >> That said, there's a separate bug in trac about X not starting when
 >> the NAND flash is full.  I'm not sure if that's what you're
 >> referring to as "not booting" or not, but we should fix that, too.
 > 
 > Specifically, http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7125.
 > 
 > What do people think of the straw man in that ticket?  Should we
 > implement it?

so others don't have to look:
"Here's a straw-man:  if disk is full at boot, delete the
single largest journal entry, iterate until disk is not full
anymore."

as a user, i might prefer "delete the oldest journal entry,
iterate...".  but i'm not convinced either way.


paul
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Re: [sugar] Release Status Report - 8.2.0

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Chris Ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Before we can ship power management, though, we should also fix:
 > >  * the SD corruption bug (#6532) -- if we can't fix it in time, we can
 > >inhibit suspend when an SD card is plugged in.
 > >  * pushing wakeup decisions to the EC (#6010) -- this will make the
 > >wakeup logic more reliable.
 > 
 > I'd claim that #6532 is not a *blocker*, it is just a desired feature.
 >  I think that we should ship low-power mode in 8.2 even if that means
 > we grey out the option to turn it on when an sd card is mounted.

if we can guarantee that we won't corrupt user data, then i agree
that it's not a blocker.  but if not, i'd say it is.

 > #6010 I'm a little more ambivalent on; I'd need more opinions on
 > whether wakeup is unreliable "enough" to make an explicit low-power
 > mode unworkable.  If it means that sometimes it takes two power button
 > presses to wake up, that's probably not a blocker.  If it is so hard
 > to wake up that people regularly think the machine is hung and
 > hard-power-off instead, that's probably a blocker.

is there background missing from trac?  i don't read anything in #6010
other than "we wake up only to go right back to sleep too often",
which seems even more benign (leaving power usage aside) than
you're describing.

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Re: SuperUser permission for the Driver??

[pgf]

shivaprasad wrote:
 > But I got one more question for you, now to install the activity and having
 > it running I have to copy the rules file into /etc/udev/rules.d folder. How
 > can I do this while installing the activity itself. ( I need to make sure
 > that when I unzip my activity .xo file the rules file lands in the
 > /etc/udev/rules.d folder)


james wrote:
 > But /etc/udev/rules.d is executed as root, so your activity would still
 > need excessive privilege.

unless i'm misunderstanding, it seems to me that this is a
problem that needs to be solved -- there are lots of little
user-oriented USB devices that an activity might like to have
access to -- serial, GPS, cameras, etc.  just as we make USB
storage devices accessible to the user, we need to allow for
other types of h/w accessories.  (i have an activity that needs
this as well, if it's to be useable without unix commandline
knowledge.)

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Re: SuperUser permission for the Driver??

[pgf]

benjamin m. schwartz wrote:
 > 
 > Deepak Saxena wrote:
 > | I agree with Paul that we need to have a solution to these
 > | cases iff we want to support running arbitrary software and
 > | hw combinations on the XO. The other option is to limit the
 > | scope of the system to a very specific set of sw and hw,
 > | treating the XO as embedded education appliance instead of
 > | a general-purpose laptop device, which I don't think
 > | we want to do.
 > 
 > That is _precisely_ what I want to do.
 > 
 > OLPC's goal is to distribute XOs to the poorest children in the world.
 > That means that in the category of electronics, the great majority will
 > have the XO and nothing else.  Peripherals are a rarity, an edge case.

perhaps, but i have trouble believing that no school will ever
have any "loaner", or "classroom shared" peripherals that the
students may not own, but will still need to be able to use.

(but perhaps most of these will fall into some well-known categores --
e.g., USB serial adapters.  and we could maybe support them with
a canned udev entry?)

 > 
 > There is a planned design to allow the user to grant extra privileges to
 > different Activities, 

reference?

paul

 > but those privileges will probably never extend to
 > loading arbitrary kernel modules.  I have no problem declaring that anyone
 > who is modifying the kernel is a "developer", and should therefore get a
 > devkey and call modprobe themselves.

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boot timings

[pgf]

hecking all file systems.
 46.370|  0.017|[  OK  ]
 46.370|  0.000|
 46.882|  0.511|Mounting local filesystems:  [  OK  ]
 46.913|  0.030|Enabling /etc/fstab swaps:  [  OK  ]
 47.377|  0.464|
 47.809|  0.432|INIT: Entering runlevel: 5
 47.857|  0.047|Entering non-interactive startup
 47.970|  0.113|Starting 0-boot-anim-start:  [  OK  ]
 48.321|  0.350|
 48.513|  0.191|Starting olpc-configure:  olpc-configure: configuring 
hardware...
 48.625|  0.112|[  OK  ]
 48.625|  0.000|Starting system logger: [  OK  ]
 49.634|  1.009|
 49.634|  0.000|Starting kernel logger: [  OK  ]
 49.664|  0.029|Starting system message bus: Unknown username "gdm" in message 
bus configuration file
 50.576|  0.912|[  OK  ]
 50.576|  0.000|
 51.152|  0.575|Starting rainbow-daemon: [  OK  ]
 53.936|  2.784|Starting sshd: [  OK  ]
 54.464|  0.528|
 54.754|  0.289|Starting ConsoleKit: [  OK  ]
 54.818|  0.064|Starting crond: [  OK  ]
 55.199|  0.381|[  OK  ]
 55.199|  0.000|Starting anacron: [  OK  ]
 55.535|  0.335|
 55.839|  0.304|Starting Avahi daemon... [  OK  ]
 55.999|  0.160|Setting network parameters...
 56.320|  0.320|Starting NetworkManager daemon: [  OK  ]
 56.527|  0.207|
 56.832|  0.304|Starting NetworkManagerDispatcher daemon: [  OK  ]
 56.864|  0.032|Starting HAL daemon: [  OK  ]
 57.488|  0.624|
 58.016|  0.528|Starting the hardware manager: [  OK  ]
 59.600|  1.584|Starting Open Hardware Manager: [  OK  ]
 60.464|  0.864|
 61.023|  0.559|Starting ul-warning:  [  OK  ]
 61.327|  0.304|Starting z-boot-anim-stop:  [  OK  ]
 64.031|  2.704|
 64.975|  0.944|
 65.585|  0.610|X.Org X Server 1.4.0Release Date: 5 September 2007
 65.586|  0.000|X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0Build Operating System: Fedora 
Core 7 Red Hat, Inc.
 65.586|  0.000|Current Operating System: Linux xo-10-B4-EC.localdomain 
2.6.22-20080523.1.olpc.28f4cb6e780db07 #1 PREEMPT Fri May 23 03:06:12 EDT 2008 
i586Build Date: 27 May 2008  08:43:14PM
 65.586|  0.000|Build ID: xorg-x11-server 1.4-9.olpc2   Before reporting 
problems, check http://wiki.x.org
 65.586|  0.000|to make sure that you have the latest version.Module 
Loader present
 65.587|  0.000|Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default 
setting,  (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
 65.623|  0.035|(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) 
unknown.(==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Thu Jun 26 21:22:42 2008
 65.623|  0.000|(==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf"(EE) Failed to load 
module "dbe" (module does not exist, 0)
 65.821|  0.197|(EE) Failed to load module "glx" (module does not exist, 0)(EE) 
Failed to load module "dri" (module does not exist, 0)
 66.028|  0.207|(II) Module "ramdac" already built-in(EE) OLPC ALPS PenTablet: 
Button: 74.
 66.554|  0.525|(EE) OLPC ALPS PenTablet: state->btn: 0x8237800.(EE) OLPC ALPS 
PenTablet: Unable to parse 'null' as a map specifier string.
 66.554|  0.000|(EE) OLPC ALPS PenTablet: Unable to parse 'null' as a map 
specifier string.(EE) OLPC ALPS GlideSensor: Unable to parse 'RelAxis 0' as a 
map specifier.
 66.554|  0.000|(EE) OLPC ALPS GlideSensor: Unable to parse 'RelAxis 1' as a 
map specifier.(EE) OLPC ALPS GlideSensor: Button: 74.
 66.555|  0.000|(EE) OLPC ALPS GlideSensor: state->btn: 0x823a260.(EE) OLPC 
ALPS GlideSensor: Unable to parse 'null' as a map specifier string.
 66.580|  0.024|(EE) OLPC ALPS GlideSensor: Unable to parse 'null' as a map 
specifier string.Xlib:  extension "XFree86-Misc" missing on display ":0.0".
 69.941|  3.361|The XKEYBOARD keymap compiler (xkbcomp) reports:> Warning:  
Type "ONE_LEVEL" has 1 levels, but  has 2 symbols
 69.941|  0.000|>   Ignoring extra symbolsErrors from xkbcomp 
are not fatal to the X server
105.282| 35.340|

[ hit return to enable shell on ttyS0 -pgf ]

105.314|  0.032|bash-3.2#
105.474|  0.160|bash-3.2#
121.361| 15.886|bash-3.2#

[ shutdown commenced from suger, with timestamps reset  -pgf ]

121.376|  0.015|bash-3.2# INIT: Switching to run
  0.000| 12.012|INIT: Sending processes the TERM signal
  0.000|  0.000|
  0.000|  0.000|
  0.000|  0.000|waiting for X server to shut down
  0.992|  0.991|
  0.992|  0.000|xinit:  unexpected signal 15.
  1.008|  0.016|Stopping ul-warning:  Traceback (most recent call last):
  2.053|  1.045|  File "/etc/rc0.d/K01ul-warning", line 94, in 
  2.053|  0.000|fb = initial_setup()
  2.053|  0.000|  File "/etc/rc0.d/K01ul-warning", line 35, in initial_setup
  2.053|  0.000|chvt(2)
  2.053|  0.000|  File "pyvt.pyx", line 42, in pyvt.chvt
  2.053|  0.000|IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
  2.054|  0.000|[FAILED]
  2.325|  0.271|
  2.469|  0.144|Stopping NetworkManager daemon: [  OK  ]
  3.653|  1.184|Stopping NetworkManagerDispatcher daemon: [  OK  ]
  3.813|  

Re: boot timings

[pgf]

two quick addenda --
- i've put the source for the tool (cl.c) in my public_html on d.l.o.
 (i can no longer remember why it's called "cl".)
- there may be some red herrings in the trace i posted:  to
 get the trace i had to completely disable the tty0
 console.  as a result, things that might have thought
 there were on a graphical tty were not.

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Re: Parallel desktops

[pgf]

benjamin m. schwartz wrote:
 > Having modified that file... it's not quite so simple.  For example, GDM
 > now runs automatically, but can't do anything, because it isn't aware of
 > any valid session types.  It also doesn't seem to know how to handle a
 > single-user system with no passwords.

i'm not sure that last point is a problem.  frankly, if i'm an
interested enough user to switch desktops, i'd probably not mind
a modicum of security on my laptop, and wouldn't mind needing to
set a password.  managing or enforcing that might be an issue,
though.

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Re: OLPC-Update + RPMs WAS:Re: OLPC XO Opera browser as Sugar activity

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > 
 > The current list of OLPC_DEVEL_PACKAGES at:
 >   
 > http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/cscott/pilgrim;a=blob;f=streams.d/olpc-develop
 > ment.stream;hb=joyride#l169
 > includes:
 > 
 > rpm
 > yum
 > yum-metadata-parser
 > openssh-server
 > wget
 > xterm
 > which
 > file
 > tree
 > xorg-x11-twm
 > gdb
 > ltrace
 > strace
 > pciutils
 > bzip2
 > unzip
 > lrzsz
 > xorg-x11-apps
 > dbench
 > 
 > Of these, only xorg-x11-twm, pciutils, dbench, xorg-x11-apps, and
 > xterm strike me as obvious candidates for pruning.  What do other folk
 > feel?

"which" is redundant with "type -a" in the shell (or "type -ap" if you're
being picky).

"tree" is so small it's hardly worth discussing, but i'm not sure
how it gives info not available in other ways (i.e.  find, xargs,
ls).  (but i've not used tree much.)

when/how would "lrzsz" be useful?

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Re: OLPC-Update + RPMs WAS:Re: OLPC XO Opera browser as Sugar activity

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 10:45 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > "which" is redundant with "type -a" in the shell (or "type -ap" if you're
 > > being picky).
 > 
 > But is 'which' large enough to merit the effort?

probably not.  i was mainly being pedantic.  :-)

 > 
 > > when/how would "lrzsz" be useful?
 > 
 > Many folks using Windows as their primary home OS find themselves with
 > ssh clients which don't support scp.  (Judging from my girlfriend's
 > use) they seem to use lrzsz as a replacement for scp, and the popular
 > windows client (sorry, don't know the name) implements the other size
 > of the zmodem transfer.

okay.  as long as there's a real use.

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Re: First Draft Development Process Proposal

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 6:01 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti
 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:07 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 > > wrote:
 > >> and I formally request synchronizing our release schedule
 > >> with Fedora's.
 > >
 > > That would be good, how can we do it though? A short 8.3 in November
 > > this year to get in sync?

why is it necessary or optimal that we track every fedora release?
it seems like a requirement that's both ambitious, and somewhat
arbitrary.

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Re: First Draft Development Process Proposal

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:22 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > >
 > > why is it necessary or optimal that we track every fedora release?
 > > it seems like a requirement that's both ambitious, and somewhat
 > > arbitrary.
 > 
 > I personally think that it's good to keep your upstream (like your
 > enemies) close -- but I agree that it's not strictly necessary for
 > every release.  I do think it's important to have a well-defined
 > relationship with our upstream, though, and since 6-month schedules
 > were being proposed it makes sense to think about how that lines up
 > with Fedora's 6-month schedules.
 > 
 > Perhaps you'd like my second, 4-month, proposal better, which gives us
 > a "day off" from following fedora once in a while.  Or, returning to
 > the 6-month proposal, if the November schedule ends up squeezing us
 > too much because of the holidays, propose that we follow every *other*
 > Fedora release, skipping the Fedora release that happens in November.

it's the latter possibility i was thinking of (sync to every
other fedora release), but obviously only if we (which, as you
say, probably means "dennis") thought the net work, and net
churn, were lower using that plan.

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Re: boot timings

[pgf]

bert wrote:
 > Am 27.06.2008 um 21:55 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 > 
 > > hello --
 > >  
 > > yesterday, as much for an exercise in using the serial port,
 > > manipulating the kernel commandline, and doing a little
 > > exploring, i resurrected an old tool of mine which timestamps
 > > lines received over a serial port (or a socket), and i used it to
 > > get a trace of XO startup and shutdown.
 > 
 > Nice! Thanks.
 > 
 > So hardware-wise, USB and the touchpad seem to be time hogs, but it
 > seems unlikely we can do anything about that.

the only suspicious USB-related thing that i noticed was the 1.6
seconds in the firmware, apparently to discover the wireless.  in
the normal boot case i wouldn't think we'd need this, but perhaps
in the truly normal case (no dev key) we don't do it.  i didn't
re-run the test with no dev key.

 > On the software-side, sshd takes close to 3 secs to start, would make
 > sense to disable in user builds - without a password it is not useful
 > anyway.

right.  this is exactly the kind of thing this tool is good for spotting.

just as scott wants to put a stake in the ground about not letting the
next release get bigger, i think it would also be worth not letting it
get slower.  

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Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings & lists. (reply to).

[pgf]

jim wrote:
 > On Wed, 2008-07-02 at 17:47 +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 > > 1. olpc games sets the reply-to
 > 
 > Sounds like it should get fixed...
 > 
 > > 2. BTW this recommendation does not make my point wrong (eg that the 
 > > current setting makes harder to keep conversations on the devel list)
 > 
 > And screws many people who use reply to to get their mail sent back to
 > their main mailbox

this is an old old problem, and should have been fixed long ago
by Mail-Followup-To, or similar.  alternatively, our lists all
set the List-Post header -- if mail clients could use this
easily, the problem would be mostly moot as well.

in the meantime, i believe there are only two choices:  the list
sets Reply-To, or it doesn't.  technical lists rarely set it,
more "social" lists sometimes do.

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Re: Inappropriate use of private meetings & lists. (reply to).

[pgf]

bert wrote:
 > 
 > Am 02.07.2008 um 20:01 schrieb Dennis Gilmore:
 > 
 > > On Wednesday 02 July 2008, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 > >> Am 02.07.2008 um 19:33 schrieb Dennis Gilmore:
 > >>> by setting the replyto the list i wont get ccd on email when people
 > >>> reply to
 > >>> all  because that is the easy way to make sure it goes back to the
 > >>> list in the
 > >>> current setup.  instead I will get responses via mailmain and not
 > >>> direct and
 > >>> the mail will have the X-BeenThere header and will be filed
 > >>> appropriately on my
 > >>> mail server.
 > >>
 > >> Since you're doing fancy mail filtering on your end anyway, why don't
 > >> you just discard the duplicate CC based on message ids? See "man
 > >> procmailex" for an example using "formail -D".
 > > because i only get one copy of the email and its not from mailman  
 > > when im on
 > > the CC list
 > 
 > 
 > Change the setting in your mailing list options back to the default  
 > (which is to not suppress duplicates)/

or, filter on To:/Cc:  (i.e., use procmail's "TO" pattern) instead
of X-BeenThere.

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Re: 8.2 Kernel status update

[pgf]

deepak wrote:
 > On Jul 02 2008, at 10:16, Jim Gettys was caught saying:
 > > The other issue it would be nice to get fixed is the jffs2 full
 > > performance falling off the wall cliff, for which there is a patch that
 > > the Nokia folks have deployed.  While in development we seldom run full,
 > > running full is likely the usual state in the field.
 > > 
 > > Dave, have you had a chance to look at it?
 > 
 > Dave looked at it and doesn't like the implementation. I can 
 > throw it into our joyride along with the needed changes to
 > olpcrd to mount with a root reservation of 4M or so as a
 > stop-gap to a better solution until we have something better.
 > Note that both the patch and Dave's proposal of having a sysfs 
 > attribute for root reservation and other attributes don't 
 > really address the slow performance at full issue. They just 
 > keep the filesystem from being filled so we don't see the condition.

so the issue isn't simply an "it's a lot of data" issue, but a
"there's no more room" issue?

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Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org

[pgf]

sameer wrote:
 > 
 > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it 
 > works quite well.

perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be
interesting to look at.

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Re: Reminder: Tuesday Release & Wednesday Software Meetings -- 2:00 PM EDT, #olpc-meeting on irc.freenode.org

[pgf]

sameer wrote:
 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > sameer wrote:
 > >  > 
 > >  > Ubuntu uses Gobby for its UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit) meetings and it 
 > >  > works quite well.
 > >
 > > perhaps they have a usage model (guidelines) that would be
 > > interesting to look at.
 > >
 > Overall UDS participation instructions from the Sevilla UDS at 
 > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Participate and Boston UDS at 
 > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate
 > 

it's not clear from those pages, but it looks like they may use
gobby only for the doc editing feature.  VOIP and IRC are used
for chat.

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Re: 8.1 Kernel for touchpad testing

[pgf]

deepak wrote:
 > I have built an RPM with the 2.6.22 kernel + driver backport that folks 
 > running <= 703 can use for this purpose:
 > 
 > http://dev.laptop.org/~dsaxena/kernel-2.6.22-20080710.1.olpc.0.i586.rpm
 > 
 > See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Kernel#Installing_OLPC_kernel_RPMs for 
 > information on how to install this update.
 > 
 > Please provide feedback on the mouse behaviour if you decide to 
 > install this.

nice.  thanks.  installed and works fine on my 703 and 656 machines.

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low power actions?

[pgf]

a thread on irc from last evening prompts me to ask:  where can i
find a description of how the laptop behaves (LED behavior, powerdown
behavior, etc) as the battery gets low?

brief searching led me to 
  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Power_Management#Power_Management_Scenarios
but this scenario (battery getting low/critical) doesn't seem to be
covered.

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Re: low power actions?

[pgf]

smith wrote:
 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > a thread on irc from last evening prompts me to ask:  where can i
 > > find a description of how the laptop behaves (LED behavior, powerdown
 > > behavior, etc) as the battery gets low?
 >
 > EC wise:  The EC turns on the red led when it thinks the battery is
 > empty. This is by an SOC % dropping < 15%.  If the battery voltage
 > depletes further to a level where cell damage will occur it turns the
 > system off.
 >

my interest was piqued by someone on irc asking about automatic
clean shutdowns for low power.  i was wondering whether we do
that, and whether we do earlier user warnings ("your battery
should be charged now in order to keep it healthy"), or perhaps
forced suspends.

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Re: low power actions?

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 >> my interest was piqued by someone on irc asking about automatic
 >> clean shutdowns for low power.  i was wondering whether we do that,
 >> and whether we do earlier user warnings ("your battery should be
 >> charged now in order to keep it healthy"), or perhaps forced
 >> suspends.
 > 
 > Well, we shut off automatically in order to keep the battery healthy,
 > so there's no user involvement needed there.

to clarify:  "shut off automatically" == "clean shutdown"?

 > I don't currently do anything in userspace on low power, but the feature
 > of "shutting down should save state" is targeted at 8.2, and I think the
 > Sugar side is done; I just need a way to trigger the state saving from
 > OHM when power is low.  I've added the request to #6014.

heh.  whatever happened to SIGTERM.  :-)  (only half joking)

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Re: low power actions?

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 >> What would it take to put in a journaling filesystem?
 > 
 > The "j" in "jffs2" stands for "journalling".

to expand -- i believe the shutdown-inspired corruption people
are worried about is not filesystem corruption, but application
corruption -- if the activity doesn't completely write its state
before the system is shut down, no amount of filesystem
protection will help.

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Re: [Techteam] Heads up on touchpad change

[pgf]

andres wrote:
 > > 
 > > Cc'ing devel for a wider audience.  Basically, we've got a new
 > > touchpad driver that uses mouse mode rather than advanced/stream
 > > mode.  This means the PT won't work, but the benefits are numerous:
 > > 
 > >  - lots of silly complexity ripped out of the driver
 > >  - smaller packet size means that deltas between packets are much much
 > > smaller
 > >  - smaller deltas means that it's much easier to detect jumpiness; i
 > > found it impossible to get >90px deltas using my fingers, but i saw
 > > 150px deltas when the touchpad was freaking out
 > 
 > This is one of the hardware bugs that we see; when cursor gets jumpy.
 > When one puts their finger down on the pad, the cursor will make a huge
 > jump across the screen.  This is now fairly easy to detect; we can't
 > stop it, but once we've detected it, we can trigger a recalibration.

fyi, i'm running 2.6.22-20080710.1 -- the backport kernel that
deepak put together -- on 656.

i'm seeing this in the logs fairly frequently:
Jul 14 11:57:26 creeper kernel: [44706.909058] psmouse serio1: >100px jump 
detected (-130,1)
Jul 14 12:10:05 creeper kernel: [45465.974069] psmouse serio1: >100px jump 
detected (3,-150)
Jul 14 12:10:10 creeper kernel: [45470.887243] psmouse.c: HGPK at 
isa0060/serio1/input0 lost synchronization, throwing 2 bytes away.
Jul 14 12:10:10 creeper kernel: [45470.907683] psmouse.c: resync failed, 
issuing reconnect request
Jul 14 12:10:22 creeper kernel: [45482.938494] psmouse.c: HGPK at 
isa0060/serio1/input0 lost synchronization, throwing 1 bytes away.
Jul 14 12:10:22 creeper kernel: [45482.953512] psmouse.c: resync failed, 
issuing reconnect request
Jul 14 12:21:41 creeper kernel: [46161.407663] psmouse.c: HGPK at 
isa0060/serio1/input0 lost synchronization, throwing 2 bytes away.
Jul 14 12:21:41 creeper kernel: [46161.425724] psmouse.c: resync failed, 
issuing reconnect request
Jul 14 12:21:56 creeper kernel: [46176.349552] psmouse serio1: >100px jump 
detected (-196,-32)
Jul 14 12:38:38 creeper kernel: [47178.646397] psmouse serio1: >100px jump 
detected (-108,71)

as far as i can tell, these always occur while i'm using the touchpad.

 > 
 > What an end user will see:
 > 
 > They will be
 > using the touchpad (although that's not a requirement, and detection
 > should occur correctly regardless of whether the pad is actually in
 > use), and suddenly the cursor will start misbehaving.  After anywhere
 > from 5s to 60s or of it misbehaving (the worse it behaves, the quicker
 > the driver will catch it), the driver should trigger a recalibrate.  At
 > that point, the cursor will simply vary between unresponsive, and jumpy.
 > That will be the case until the user removes their hands from the pad
 > for 3s (either they've managed to finally click on what they wanted to
 > click on, and are typing something, or they've turned away from the
 > machine for a second, or they're just used to this occurring and they
 > know to wait). After the touchpad has been clear for 3s, the cursor
 > should go back to normal. Note that 3s is a cautious number; we can

if you think we should be experimenting, can you list here the
tuneables we should be trying for both the ">100px" jump behavior
above, and the "3s" delay?

if the unusable period remains appreciable, and the recals remain
frequent, we should seriously consider visible feedback of some
sort to make it clear what's going on.  (it's even taking me a
while to remember that when the cursor goes wonky to "let go"
rather than continue to try and control it -- and i (in theory)
know what's going on.)

finally:  which is the correct current trac # for the touchpad issue(s)?

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Re: Faster Launch of Activities

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 >> Let's get it on the roadmap for 9.1, when we've got time to
 >> actually make the fixes required and test them properly (unless
 >> someone really believes that speeding up sugar is a 4 line patch).
 > 
 > I'd like to see an activity startup time comparison (just taken with a
 > stopwatch) between 650, joyride before the new sugar shell but after
 > rainbow prelaunch was added, and latest joyride.  We should do this
 > before we ship 8.2, and in future we should try to publish changes to
 > activity startup time alongside patches that touch activity launch.
 > 
 > I was planning on doing this measurement myself, but it's not getting to
 > the top of my stack.  Could I persuade someone else to volunteer? 

perhaps it would be possible to add log entries at the "interesting"
points of activity startup, so that the timing data is always available
on a regular basis.

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Re: Code name for 9.1.0

[pgf]

morgan wrote:
 > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:56, Richard A. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Greg Smith wrote:
 > >
 > >> Ideas so far. Please vote or propose a new one:
 > >> Freire
 > >> mango
 > >> Papert
 > >
 > > I'm +1 for mango. I think naming after fruits plays well with calling
 > > our user environment sugar.
 > 
 > Another +1 for mango.

metoo++

i have to say, though, that one of the best decisions ubuntu
ever made was to have alphabetically ordered codenames.  i'm
not sure where "mango" came from, but i think "apricot", or
perhaps "breadfruit" or "coconut" would be a better starting
point.

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Re: Touch pad

[pgf]

david wrote:
 > [Community News]The kernel team has backported the modifications to the
 > older stable kernel so that it can be installed on builds 656 and 703. This
 > allows our G1G1 users and deployment countries to install and test this
 > new driver.
 > 
 > Seeking advice on how to install this modification!
 > 


quoting a message from last week, from dsaxena on this list:
 > 
 > http://dev.laptop.org/~dsaxena/kernel-2.6.22-20080710.1.olpc.0.i586.rpm
 > 
 > See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Kernel#Installing_OLPC_kernel_RPMs for 
 > information on how to install this update.
 > 
 > Please provide feedback on the mouse behaviour if you decide to 
 > install this.
 > 
 > Thanks,
 > ~Deepak

use "wget" to fetch the .rpm file.

install as instructed on that wiki page.  be sure and run the
"cp" command noted on the wiki page after installing the RPM. 
(ignore the benign (in this case) warnings when cp is run.)

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Re: Code name for 9.1.0

[pgf]

eben wrote:
 > This is clever. - Eben

but we need to keep at least one half of the name to one or two
syllables though.  i'm not looking forward to having to IRC about
"pummeling pomegranates".

paul

 > 
 > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > wrote:
 > 
 > > I've always been an alliteration fan, but how about a noun and a
 > > verb--after all, learning is action.
 > >
 > > appropriate apricots
 > >
 > > or a gerund form
 > >
 > > appropriating apricots
 > >
 > > -walter
 > >
 > >
 > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > wrote:
 > > >
 > > > Am 15.07.2008 um 05:19 schrieb Tomeu Vizoso:
 > > >
 > > >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:43 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > >>> morgan wrote:
 > >  On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:56, Richard A. Smith
 > >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > > Greg Smith wrote:
 > > >
 > > >> Ideas so far. Please vote or propose a new one:
 > > >> Freire
 > > >> mango
 > > >> Papert
 > > >
 > > > I'm +1 for mango. I think naming after fruits plays well with
 > > > calling
 > > > our user environment sugar.
 > > 
 > >  Another +1 for mango.
 > > >>>
 > > >>> metoo++
 > > >>>
 > > >>> i have to say, though, that one of the best decisions ubuntu
 > > >>> ever made was to have alphabetically ordered codenames.  i'm
 > > >>> not sure where "mango" came from, but i think "apricot", or
 > > >>> perhaps "breadfruit" or "coconut" would be a better starting
 > > >>> point.
 > > >>
 > > >> Agree with Paul. Some fruit lists:
 > > >>
 > > >> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fruit
 > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_fruit#Tropical_fruits
 > > >
 > > > I like that a lot. An even greater homage to Ubuntu would be ... drum
 > > > roll ...
 > > >
 > > >"Avid Avocado"
 > > >
 > > > But I could go with "Apricot" too.
 > > >
 > > > - Bert -
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ___
 > > > Devel mailing list
 > > > Devel@lists.laptop.org
 > > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
 > > >
 > > ___
 > > Devel mailing list
 > > Devel@lists.laptop.org
 > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
 > >
 > part 2 text/plain 129
 > ___
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planet.l.o (was Re: B4 motherboard ...)

[pgf]

michael wrote:
 > I really wish that people receiving developer machines posted to devel
 > or planet.laptop.org on a regular basis and, if possible, introduced

so, speaking of communication gaps, neither erikg nor i had ever
heard of planet.laptop.org until this message.  considering i've
been following the project for about a year and a half, that
surprises me.  :-)

i think if we want people to visit and use it, we may need to
publicize it better!

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Re: Code name for 9.1.0

[pgf]

[ greg -- be sure fix the subject when replying to a digest. ]

greg wrote:
 > Hi Martin,
 > 
 > We need keep that capability of upgrade from anywhere to anywhere if at 
 > all possible! That is a huge benefit for our customers and for our 
 > managing the scope of testing.
 > 
 > Even if we can just keep that from any 70x forward it will be a big help.
 > 
 > I know we hope 8.2.0 is rock solid but it may not be so we need an 
 > option to downgrade safely.

downgrade is _very_ difficult to get right.  it's a worthy goal,
but given our testing resources, and the natural concentration of
both developers and testers on the upgrade scenario, i wouldn't
promise downgrade.  (and from what cscott has said to me every time
i mutter under my breath about upgrade oddness, i'm under the
impression that the "boot to previous version" is really only
a failsafe mechanism to keep the box running until your upgrade
is successful, and isn't intended as a true "downgrade".  correct
me if i'm wrong, scott.)

paul

 > 
 > BTW on this issue below, I just talked to a sugar engineer and they plan 
 > to fix that before we ship 8.2.0.
 > 
 > Thanks,
 > 
 > Greg S
 > 
 > > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:25:17 +1200
 > > From: "Martin Langhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > Subject: Re: Code name for 9.1.0
 > > To: "Morgan Collett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], devel@lists.laptop.org
 > > Message-ID:
 > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 > > 
 > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Morgan Collett
 > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > >> With olpc-update, it's not critical to update from version x to
 > >> version x+1 - we can skip versions as we don't depend on a particular
 > >> package state. (e.g. You can upgrade from 650 to joyride without
 > >> having to upgrade to 703 first...) In the future that could become
 > >> significant though if we have system changes affecting datastore
 > >> format changes or something which might make support easier if
 > >> upgrading from a known version.
 > > 
 > > I don't think that the ability to skip versions is going to hold long term.
 > > 
 > > The current setup is that olpc-updte does away with all the post-inst
 > > and related hooks, which means that running code has to have the
 > > smarts to upgrade/downgrade stored data formats (user documents,
 > > configuration options, etc). This can get burdensome quickly.
 > > 
 > > As of now for example, the promise of olpc-update (of booting back to
 > > the older version sanely) is broken between update-703 and current
 > > joyride as the ds format has changed in an incompatible way, and
 > > update-703 cannot read the new layout.
 > > 
 > > cheers,
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > m
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Re: Code name for 9.1.0 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

[pgf]

greg wrote:
 > I know that downgrade is hard. The great thing is that the XO supports 
 > that very elegantly right now!
 > 
 > I don't want to lose that.
 > 
 > It saved me once when I upgraded to joyride image without a developer 
 > key (doh!) and was locked out.

but don't confuse "saving yourself" with a robust procedure
that's guaranteed to leave your former environment in a fully
useable/functional condition.  i don't think that's what we have,
or will have, in the foreseeable future.

paul

 > 
 > Thanks,
 > 
 > Greg S
 > 
 > greg wrote:
 >   > Hi Martin,
 >   >
 >   > We need keep that capability of upgrade from anywhere to anywhere if at
 >   > all possible! That is a huge benefit for our customers and for our
 >   > managing the scope of testing.
 >   >
 >   > Even if we can just keep that from any 70x forward it will be a big 
 > help.
 >   >
 >   > I know we hope 8.2.0 is rock solid but it may not be so we need an
 >   > option to downgrade safely.
 > 
 > downgrade is _very_ difficult to get right.  it's a worthy goal,
 > but given our testing resources, and the natural concentration of
 > both developers and testers on the upgrade scenario, i wouldn't
 > promise downgrade.  (and from what cscott has said to me every time
 > i mutter under my breath about upgrade oddness, i'm under the
 > impression that the "boot to previous version" is really only
 > a failsafe mechanism to keep the box running until your upgrade
 > is successful, and isn't intended as a true "downgrade".  correct
 > me if i'm wrong, scott.)
 > 
 > paul
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Re: For review: NAND out of space patch.

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 >> I'll go on record repeating the comments made earlier. deleting the
 >> students largest file is probably deleting their most important
 >> work.
 > 
 > Of course, it should be only a last resort; I tried to make that clear.
 > I hope that in 8.2 we'll fix the problem in general, in a way that
 > prompts for which files to delete.  This patch would be an interim
 > workaround for deployments to ameliorate the current problem of
 > non-booting laptops, and a failsafe for any edgecases we miss in 8.2.

it sure feels as if adding a time component to the "nuking"
algorithm would help (e.g. something based on "du -s $(ls -rtd PATH/*)"),
but i guess it wouldn't, really.  can we at least nuke some
obvious big (or otherwise useless-in-a-deployment) installed
files first?  that's only a one-time thing, but it's arguably
better than losing "real" data.

ben wrote:
 > This hackish approach is meant only as a patch to existing systems running
 > old builds.  Uruguay has a comprehensive system for deploying such patches
 > quickly.  Based on our new understanding of the urgency of the full NAND

is it really true that uruguay can deploy patches quickly?  then
surely we can come up with a simple cron-based script that puts a
large-font warning in an xterm when diskspace is low?  it would
(obviously) be ugly, but still better than a failed boot and loss
of data.  if the diskspace disappears all at once, due to downloads
or something, then this won't help, but i'll bet we could choose
a threshold that would be successful pretty often.  we might even
cause it to run more often when browse or record is running.

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Re: For review: NAND out of space patch.

[pgf]

jim wrote:
 > Ah, I like this idea better than the previous I've heard; if we can
 > uninstall software or cleanup the journal with human intervention, that
 > would be good  I'm nervous about automatic cleanup schemes

i agree that erik's proposal sounds attractive, since we'd have
most or all of the "real" UI available to assist in presenting
the user's choices.  but even if this scheme doesn't pan out,
i still think we could do something interesting by inserting a
hook (via a patch) into .xsession which lets us run something
non-sugary (but still interactive) prior to full startup.

paul

 >- Jim
 > 
 > 
 > On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 13:20 -0400, Erik Garrison wrote:
 > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:53:37PM -0300, John Watlington wrote:
 > > > 
 > > > On Jul 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Chris Ball wrote:
 > > > 
 > > > > Hi,
 > > > >
 > > > >> Can you walk me through the exact steps that the user would
 > > > >> experience if this script was installed?
 > > > >
 > > > > They wouldn't see anything different, but Journal entries  
 > > > > corresponding
 > > > > to files we chose to delete wouldn't resume properly.
 > > > >
 > > > >> In terms of which files, I think the oldest (or maybe LRU as they
 > > > >> say in caches) would be better than the largest. Can we do that
 > > > >> (e.g. delete oldest then iterate until x MBs is free)?
 > > > >
 > > > > I disagree; I don't think we're filling up with small Write or Paint
 > > > > documents, my intuition is that we're filling up with recent large
 > > > > downloads and movies.  In the case where the problem is a huge  
 > > > > download
 > > > > the user just made, your scheme results in deleting *everything*.
 > > > >
 > > > > Since we disagree, maybe best to wait until we have some disk-full
 > > > > images back from the field so that we can see what used up all the
 > > > > space, before deciding the algorithm.
 > > > 
 > > > I'm getting three images right now.
 > > > 
 > > > One of the machines booted, but wouldn't allow any activities to launch
 > > > (which since you can't log in on vttys kinda locks down the machine).
 > > > But I did notice a large number of non-standard activities (e.g. Doom).
 > > 
 > > This sounds familiar.  I think several teachers from Uruguay have
 > > mentioned on the Sur list that their students love to download software
 > > and have filled up their storage space.  I'll try to find the reference.
 > > I have also heard the same from a contractor in Uruguay who has been
 > > involved in distribution (via #olpc-ayuda).
 > > 
 > > Today I am going to test a solution in which we union-mount a tmpfs over
 > > top of a full root filesystem (which is effectively read-only).  This
 > > should allow us to boot, but obviously any changes made to the tmpfs
 > > during the session will be lost.  Provided we can boot in this scheme,
 > > we should immediately open a dialogue which asks the user to select
 > > Activities to delete.
 > > 
 > > I think that such a 'recovery-mode' is ultimately the best we're going
 > > to do to help resolve this issue.  We must provide students a way to
 > > manage their systems, and to do so even in a NAND-full state, or the
 > > solution to NAND-full will continue to be centralized and costly.  If it
 > > is not something that we ship immediately to help resolve the issue in
 > > Uruguay, the current situation demonstrates that it is a worthwhile
 > > target for future releasese.
 > > 
 > > Erik
 > > ___
 > > Devel mailing list
 > > Devel@lists.laptop.org
 > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
 > -- 
 > Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > One Laptop Per Child
 > 
 > ___
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Re: NAND Full Requirement

[pgf]

erik wrote:
 > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 04:01:35PM -0400, Greg Smith wrote:
 > > Hi All,
 > > 
 > > Here's the requirement for Uruguay NAND full situation.
 > > 
 > > I need this fixed ASAP.
 > > 
 > > - The XO must always boot up to sugar including allowing access to the 
 > > journal. That is no matter the fullness of the NAND
 > > - If the NAND has less than nnMB (50?) free, warn the user that they are 
 > > low on space.
 > > - Must be installable on 656 in the Uruguay configuration
 > > - Must not delete any user created files
 > > - Must not disable any activities or other functionality
 > > 
 > > So far they have:
 > > - a dialog box which warns when you get low on space
 > > - Chris's script which allows deleting stuff automaticaly but probably 
 > > user stuff
 > > 
 > > What else they want, not sure... I will talk to Emliano ASAP and let you 
 > >   know.
 > > 
 > > Erik will propose one solution (related to RamFS I believe).
 > > 
 > 
 > See: http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7587#comment:4
 > 
 > On boot, check NAND discomfort level.  If high, use unionfs(4) to mount
 > a read/write tmpfs over top of a read-only jffs2 rootfs.  Set unionfs
 > flags to enable file deletion from the 'ro' root partition (or if this
 > is impossible, mount the fs in another location to allow deletions).
 > Set a flag to tell olpc-session or Sugar to enter into a deletion
 > dialog.  
 > 
 > Benefits:
 > This solution theoretically allows all software to run an a NAND-full
 > machine.  Thus students who arrive at school with a NAND-full machine
 > could still work with their XO through lessons and manage flash cleanup
 > as time is available.  Requires minimal code-level changes to enable.

what happens when they fill up tmpfs while still working through
lessons?

the idea is intriguing, but it would have to be a limited mode
of operation:  i.e., no activity startup, please reboot soon.

paul

 > 
 > Drawbacks:
 > Working on this solution may distract from efforts to get our system to
 > boot cleanly on top of a read-only root fs.  C. Scott and others have
 > suggested that we ultimately want to do this.
 > 
 > Issues: 
 > Currently unionfs is untested on the XO.  I am waiting for a
 > unionfs-enabled kernel (currently building).  Theoretically it will
 > work, as per every Linux livecd under the sun.
 > 
 > Erik
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no activities after 656 --> joyride. but wait...

[pgf]

yes, i know joyride doesn't include activities.

however, i had previously installed a couple of activities under
/home/olpc/Activities, which are still there.  even these don't
show up after the upgrade.  why wouldn't they?  i've heard that
sugar keeps voluminous disk eating logs :-) of everything it does
-- might there be traces of my invisible activies in those logs?

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Re: no activities after 656 --> joyride. but wait...

[pgf]

eben wrote:
 > Right, this edge case was brought to my attention by Greg the other day.  It
 > will only happen once...in future updates, favorites are preserved.

thanks.  i now understand where the missing ones were.  they just weren't
"starred".

 > 
 > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:42 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > > yes, i know joyride doesn't include activities.
 > > >
 > > > however, i had previously installed a couple of activities under
 > > > /home/olpc/Activities, which are still there.  even these don't
 > > > show up after the upgrade.  why wouldn't they?  i've heard that
 > > > sugar keeps voluminous disk eating logs :-) of everything it does
 > > > -- might there be traces of my invisible activies in those logs?
 > >
 > > Your new activities don't show up because they are not favorites.
 > > This is trac #7220.
 > >
 > > If you open the sugar control panel and select 'software update', do
 > > your activites come back as desired?

no.  "software updates" presented me with an empty list.

paul
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Re: no activities after 656 --> joyride. but wait...

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Eben Eliason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Right, this edge case was brought to my attention by Greg the other day.  
 > > It
 > > will only happen once...in future updates, favorites are preserved.
 > >  Additionally, in most scenarios, the update will include an "activity 
 > > pack"
 > > as well, which includes a country-specified list of default favorites,
 > > preventing the "empty" Home screen.
 > > Thus, the only things that disappear are activities which were previously
 > > installed and are not included in the default favorites list in the update.
 > >  I'm not sure if we can come up with a simple way to prevent this, or if
 > > it's worth our time this late in the release cycle for a one-time 
 > > situation.
 > 
 > IMO, it is worth our time to ensure smooth upgrades between releases.
 > If there are no favorites listed when we boot, we should make all the
 > activities favorites, to preserve the activities the user expects from
 > the old release.  That is trac #7220.

it certainly would have prevented my confusion. 

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odd yum dependency issues in joyride

[pgf]

i've been slowly moving my g1g1 machine forward to joyride (from 656).
i had customized it quite a bit, and am trying to restore those changes.
i've got xfce running, but a couple of yum dependencies (which were fine
with F7) are failing.

to wit:

# yum install gcc
olpc_development | 2.5 kB 00:00
primary.sqlite.bz2   | 6.1 MB 00:41
Setting up Install Process
Parsing package install arguments
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
---> Package gcc.i386 0:4.3.0-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: binutils >= 2.17.50.0.17-3 for package: gcc
--> Processing Dependency: glibc-devel >= 2.2.90-12 for package: gcc
--> Running transaction check
---> Package binutils.i386 0:2.18.50.0.6-4.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package glibc-devel.i386 0:2.8-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: glibc-headers = 2.8-8 for package: glibc-devel
--> Processing Dependency: glibc = 2.8-8 for package: glibc-devel
--> Running transaction check
---> Package glibc.i386 0:2.8-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-8 for package: glibc
---> Package glibc-headers.i386 0:2.8-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: kernel-headers for package: glibc-headers
--> Processing Dependency: kernel-headers >= 2.2.1 for package: glibc-headers
--> Running transaction check
---> Package kernel-headers.i386 0:2.6.25.11-97.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package glibc-common.i386 0:2.8-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 for package: glibc
--> Finished Dependency Resolution
glibc-2.8-3.i686 from installed has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)
Error: Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)



and:


# yum install firefox
Setting up Install Process
Parsing package install arguments
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
---> Package firefox.i386 0:3.0.1-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 for package: firefox
--> Processing Dependency: system-bookmarks for package: firefox
--> Running transaction check
---> Package fedora-bookmarks.noarch 0:8-1 set to be updated
---> Package firefox.i386 0:3.0.1-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 for package: firefox
--> Finished Dependency Resolution
firefox-3.0.1-1.fc9.i386 from olpc_development has depsolving problems
  --> Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 is needed by package 
firefox-3.0.1-1.fc9.i386 (olpc_development)
Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 is needed by package 
firefox-3.0.1-1.fc9.i386 (olpc_development)

if these are expected issues, fine, but they seem a little odd. 
is it possible that it's breakage caused by our upgrade scheme --
i.e., are some pieces of the old yum metadata left around that
are causing the confusion?

i'll trac it if anyone thinks i should.

oh -- it's joyride 2159, i think, from sometime last week.

paul
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Re: odd yum dependency issues in joyride

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > i've been slowly moving my g1g1 machine forward to joyride (from 656).
 > > i had customized it quite a bit, and am trying to restore those changes.
 > > i've got xfce running, but a couple of yum dependencies (which were fine
 > > with F7) are failing.
 > >
 > > to wit:
 > >
 > > # yum install gcc
 > [...]
 > >  --> Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
 > glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)
 > > Error: Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
 > glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)
 > 
 > Seems strongly related to trac #5056.

related, perhaps, but clearly new breakage, since a gcc install worked
fine in 656.

 > 
 > > # yum install firefox
 > [...]
 > > Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 is needed by package 
 > firefox-3.0.1-1.fc9.i386 (olpc_development)
 > 
 > Hmm, this might be a more fundamental mismatch, since we have a
 > specific version of gecko used for Browse.  You could always download

but didn't we always?  (i.e., what's changed?)

 > the standalone (unpackaged .tar.gz) version of Firefox.

sure.  i could do that with a lot of things.  :-)  i'm willing for
this machine to be in limbo for a while (useability-speaking) during
joyride testing.

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Re: [RFC] Four solutions to NAND fillup

[pgf]

guylhem wrote:
 > Hello
 > 
 > A suggestion for similar problems, which I experienced in the past for
 > other hardware.
 > 
 > The /var tree is mostly used for logs and caches - stuff that could be
 > discarded at reboot. And usually, there's a lof ot them (see with du
 > -ksh)
 > 
 > There are some important subdirs that however should be kept.
 > 
 > What I did :
 >   /var is a link to some directory mounted as shmfs (there are various
 > ones, take the one you prefer)

i think if you look closely at the XO you'll see that this is
essentially already done, but the mechanism is slightly different
than it might have been in the past.  compare the output of "df"
with "df /var/log", for instance, and look in /etc/rwtab.

if you follow this through in rc.sysinit, you'll find that everything
mentioned in /etc/rwtab is mounted on tmpfs.

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Re: odd yum dependency issues in joyride

[pgf]

martin wrote:
 > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 06:33:08PM +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 > > With 2181 this worked:
 > > yum install mc
 > > yum install make gcc
 > 
 > I've been yum install'ing gcc after every olpc-update to joyride since
 > about 1559, and have never had any problems.
 > 

interesting.  i wonder why mine fails?  did either of you start
with an older (e.g. 656/703) build that included a yum'd gcc?

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Re: odd yum dependency issues in joyride

[pgf]

noiseehc wrote:
 > I have just reflashed my XO since it failed to boot.
 > Did a reflash with 703
 > then olpc-update --usb to 2181
 > then yum install gcc

thanks.  i guess i'll chalk my system up to an anomaly then.

paul

 > 
 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > martin wrote:
 > >  > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 06:33:08PM +0200, NoiseEHC wrote:
 > >  > > With 2181 this worked:
 > >  > > yum install mc
 > >  > > yum install make gcc
 > >  > 
 > >  > I've been yum install'ing gcc after every olpc-update to joyride since
 > >  > about 1559, and have never had any problems.
 > >  > 
 > >
 > > interesting.  i wonder why mine fails?  did either of you start
 > > with an older (e.g. 656/703) build that included a yum'd gcc?
 > >
 > > paul
 > > =-
 > >  paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 > >
 > >
 > >   

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Re: Calling all small keyboards

[pgf]

as i mentioned to wad the other day, the fujitsu Poqet PC may
also qualify as prior art.  (a full IBM PC, and 100 hours on 2 AA
batteries.  what more could you ask for?)

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Re: New joyride build 2216

[pgf]

i think i saw the reason for this at some point, but why do
some joyride announcements have changelog messages included,
and some (like this one) do not?

paul

build announcer v2 wrote:
 > http://xs-dev.laptop.org/~cscott/olpc/streams/joyride/build2216
 > 
 > Changes in build 2216 from build: 2214
 > 
 > Size delta: 0.00M
 > 
 > -xkeyboard-config 1.3-1.olpc3
 > +xkeyboard-config 1.3-2.olpc3
 > 
 > --
 > This mail was automatically generated
 > See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride-pkgs.html for aggregate logs
 > See http://dev.laptop.org/~rwh/announcer/joyride_vs_update1.html for a 
 > comparison
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Re: TuxPaint woes

[pgf]

michael wrote:
 > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:56:47PM -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote:
 > >But should it be up to the Activity developers (or in this case, those
 > >who first "fitted" the software to Sugar) to keep supporting their
 > >submission as the Sugar/operating_system platform keeps evolving ?
 > 
 > Who else would you propose?

the obvious answers are that we need to commit to some level of
continuing support for activities, that we support the activities
ourselves, or that we need to provide an extensible system so that
activities can specify their dependencies (which will either lead
to their fulfillment, or to the explicit disabling of the activity if
they can't be fullfilled).

so far OLPC hasn't specified a minimal level of supplied
services, or offered a way for activities to explicitly request
services they know to be required.  do you really think we can
expect activity developers to maintain their code in "reaction
mode", having to adapt to any change we make from release to
release, only finding out about the breakage after the fact?  i
can't think of a faster way to make developers give up on our
platform as a lost cause.

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Re: TuxPaint woes

[pgf]

michael wrote:
 > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:26:28PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > >the obvious answers are that we need to commit to some level of
 > >continuing support for activities, 
 > 
 > What notion of "support" would you suggest?

not breaking supplied interfaces without providing feedback to
the activities that they're broken.  commiting to a level of
minimal interfaces.  that sort of thing.

 > 
 > > that we support the activities ourselves, 
 > 
 > As above. 

we clearly can't support all activities.  i'm sure you realized it
was a rhetorical suggestion.

 > 
 > > or that we need to provide an extensible system so that
 > >activities can specify their dependencies (which will either lead
 > >to their fulfillment, or to the explicit disabling of the activity if
 > >they can't be fullfilled).
 > 
 > Constraint satisfaction (i.e. dependency checking) is certainly one
 > approach; however, it is not universal; i.e. similar results can be
 > achieved with usage-outcome reporting technology driven by both manual
 > and automated regression testing.

this isn't a good argument against dependency checking.  and i'm
not sure why we'd go out of our way to invent yet another new
technology to support our system.

 > 
 > See 
 > 
 >http://gsoc-sugarbot.blogspot.com/
 > 
 > for some active work in this direction.

this looks like a testing framework.  how does this help activity
developers?  (sorry -- i'm rushing, and don't have time to give
it a full read.)

 > 
 > >so far OLPC hasn't specified a minimal level of supplied
 > >services, or offered a way for activities to explicitly request
 > >services they know to be required.  
 > 
 > On the other hand, it would be rather trivial for activities which cared
 > to check their dependencies in a adhoc fashion (by running rpm
 > themselves if they wish) and by reporting errors if necessary
 > dependencies are unsatisfied.

as someone else replied, this is far from trivial.

 > 
 > > do you really think we can expect activity developers to maintain
 > > their code in "reaction mode", having to adapt to any change we make
 > > from release to release, only finding out about the breakage after the
 > > fact?  
 > 
 > I actually think that we [SugarLabs] should adopt an approach similar to
 > that taken by the Linux kernel (loosely paraphrased as):
 > 
 >"we're going to make breaking changes but if you push your drivers
 >[activities] upstream, we'll help carry them along..."

i'd point out that the continually breaking kernel interface is
a serious problem for lots and lots of clients of the linux kernel,
no matter how much the lkml believes otherwise.

 > 
 > According to this suggestion, OLPC would contribute to the maintenance
 > of activities which are important to it as would any other employer of
 > SugarLabs coders. Overall responsibility for maintaining SL-designated
 > activities would rest with the SugarLabs community itself.

i don't believe this model would work.  open source works because
by and large the traditional unix application environnment has
been _incredibly_ stable -- the system call interface hasn't changed
via deletion of a call in a very long time.  when new interfaces
or api's are introduced, a lot of effort is put into creating new
stability:  system calls are deprecated for years before being
deleted, likewise for gtk api calls.  system modules aren't
simply removed -- they become separate packages that can be
separately requested.  open source developers (and i count myself
among them) aren't the least bit interested in chasing a moving
target -- they want a stable base on which to work.

 > 
 > >can't think of a faster way to make developers give up on our
 > >platform as a lost cause.
 > 
 > You need to be more imaginative. :)

i'm not sure about that.  :-)

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Re: What is the best way

[pgf]

bert wrote:
 > 
 > On 30.07.2008, at 14:16, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
 > 
 > > ... to connect the XO to a projector?
 > >
 > > Are there USB vga/etc cards known to work to with the XO?
 > 
 > See
 > 
 >  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Remote_display

the sisusbvga.ko module would be another module (along with a
full set of USB modules, bluetooth modules, etc) that would be
a good candidate for inclusion in a "modules not installed by
default but available via rpm" package.  (a la trac #7326)

this would be an excellent packaging project for a volunteer contributor.

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suspend oddities

[pgf]

since i'm not sure which of these are known/expected/
alreadyfixed/beingignored, here are a few things i've noticed
with suspend.  i'll trac any that people think should, or comment
existing trac if appropriate.

disclaimer:  some of this testing has been on my g1g1 machine,
running 2159, XFCE (not sugar), with a USB keyboard.

- gamepad keypresses aren't ignored during suspend.  whether or
not the gamepad is selected as a candidate wakeup event
(via /sys/power/wakeup_events/gamekey), those keys will
be queued for tty input while we're suspended.  test by
starting hexdump (or other key capture program), suspending,
pushing any of the 8 keys on the bezel, and then resuming.
note that the keys have registered.  (this is/was true in 708
as well.)

- the camera LED flashes while suspended.  suspend the laptop,
use the touchpad or a keyboard key.  observe camera indicator
blinking.  also true on 708.

- this got me thinking about wakeups and keypresses in general.
if we're configured to wake up on keypresses or gamepad
presses (something i've not seen work yet, btw), then the
keypress causing the wake should be suppressed.  don't know
whether that's the case or not.

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Re: suspend oddities

[pgf]

deepak wrote:
 > On Jul 30 2008, at 14:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] was caught saying:
 > > since i'm not sure which of these are known/expected/
 > > alreadyfixed/beingignored, here are a few things i've noticed
 > > with suspend.  i'll trac any that people think should, or comment
 > > existing trac if appropriate.
 > > 
 > > disclaimer:  some of this testing has been on my g1g1 machine,
 > > running 2159, XFCE (not sugar), with a USB keyboard.
 > > 
 > > - gamepad keypresses aren't ignored during suspend.  whether or
 > > not the gamepad is selected as a candidate wakeup event
 > > (via /sys/power/wakeup_events/gamekey), those keys will
 > > be queued for tty input while we're suspended.  test by
 > > starting hexdump (or other key capture program), suspending,
 > > pushing any of the 8 keys on the bezel, and then resuming.
 > > note that the keys have registered.  (this is/was true in 708
 > > as well.)
 > 
 > The gamekeys go through PS2 so I'm guessing the EC is queeing that event for
 > us. I can reproduce the same sort of behaviour with by switching to console 
 > on the XO, sleeping via /sys/power/state on serial console, and then hitting
 > a keyboard key to wake up. On wakeup, the character appears on the shell.  
 > 
 > However, I just did the following here:
 > 
 > echo 0 > /sys/power/wakeup_events/ps2event
 > echo mem > /sys/power/state
 > hit a key
 > hit power button
 > 
 > And I don't see the character on console, which means it did not get
 > queued during suspend when wakeup on keypress is disabled. 
 > 
 > How are you trigerring resume?

via the power button.  no console switching.

whoa.  when i try your test, on wakeup i get at least a screenful of
newlines, complete with a screenful of bash prompts right after.  ???

paul

 > 
 > (FYI, gamekey has been renamed ps2event in latest kernels)
 > 
 > > - the camera LED flashes while suspended.  suspend the laptop,
 > > use the touchpad or a keyboard key.  observe camera indicator
 > > blinking.  also true on 708.
 > 
 > The way suspend currently works is that we actually go all the way back to 
 > userland and OHM makes a decision on whether we actually want to wake up 
 > or not based on our current state and what triggered the wakeup. I'm 
 > guessing 
 > the flashing is the camera driver resuming the device. If you're running 
 > XFCE on top of our OHM, you should see the same behaviour. The wakeup_event
 > interface was put in place to stop this by allowing OHM to specify when
 > we want to actually be woken up.
 > 
 > > - this got me thinking about wakeups and keypresses in general.
 > >if we're configured to wake up on keypresses or gamepad
 > >presses (something i've not seen work yet, btw), then the
 > >keypress causing the wake should be suppressed.  don't know
 > >whether that's the case or not.
 > 
 > 
 > >From both our tests, it does not appear to be the case ATM.  Whether 
 > this is intended or not, someone who's been around longer needs to answer.
 > 
 > ~Deepak
 > 
 > -- 
 > Deepak Saxena - Kernel Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: suspend oddities

[pgf]

smith wrote:
 > Deepak Saxena wrote:
 > > 
 > > The gamekeys go through PS2 so I'm guessing the EC is queeing that event 
 > > for
 > > us. I can reproduce the same sort of behaviour with by switching to 
 > > console 
 > > on the XO, sleeping via /sys/power/state on serial console, and then 
 > > hitting
 > > a keyboard key to wake up. On wakeup, the character appears on the shell.  
 > >
 > 
 > Gamekeys show up as virtual keys.  They should behave identical to the 
 > keyboard.  The EC reads them and injects them into the keyboard stream.
 > 
 > > However, I just did the following here:
 > > 
 > > echo 0 > /sys/power/wakeup_events/ps2event
 > > echo mem > /sys/power/state
 > > hit a key
 > > hit power button
 > 
 > Why did you need to hit the power button?

i assume because he'd just disabled ps2event wakeups.

 > 
 > > And I don't see the character on console, which means it did not get
 > > queued during suspend when wakeup on keypress is disabled. 
 > >
 > 
 > The process is the same.  If you get a wakeup from gamekey then the 
 > keypress should follow.  Turn on your ps2 debugging and verify that 
 > indeed you do not get key events.

when you say "should follow", you mean "as implemented", i assume?

i'd argue that the keypress should definitely _not_ follow.

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Re: suspend oddities

[pgf]

talking with richard just now i realized that there's been a bit
of disconnect, at least on my part, in understanding our current
suspend design.

i was complaining that keypresses were arriving while my machine
was suspended.  richard pointed out that it's meant to work that
way.  my use-case was "i've suspended my laptop because i want to
toss it in my backpack, and no button presses should register". 
richard's use-case is "my laptop is suspended because i'm in
ebook mode, and i want the game-pad keys to wake me up just
enough to flip pages on my document".  turns out the EC goes
out of its way to make sure this happens.

so, while i still think there may be bugs (in that i think i
get keypresses even when i've told the system that keypresses
shouldn't wake me up -- but i'll doublecheck that), there's
clearly a terminology problem:  "suspend" and "sleep" have too
many meanings, and none of the traditional meanings include the
XO's ebook behavior.

any thoughts on this?  i'm not sure "drowsy mode" or "zombie
mode" have quite the right connotation.  maybe "catnap" mode.

i think we also realized that we may need some more logic
(somewhere) to control wakeup events, since both the ebook and
toss-in-backpack modes are valid use cases.

paul

deepak wrote:
 > On Jul 30 2008, at 14:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] was caught saying:
 > > since i'm not sure which of these are known/expected/
 > > alreadyfixed/beingignored, here are a few things i've noticed
 > > with suspend.  i'll trac any that people think should, or comment
 > > existing trac if appropriate.
 > > 
 > > disclaimer:  some of this testing has been on my g1g1 machine,
 > > running 2159, XFCE (not sugar), with a USB keyboard.
 > > 
 > > - gamepad keypresses aren't ignored during suspend.  whether or
 > > not the gamepad is selected as a candidate wakeup event
 > > (via /sys/power/wakeup_events/gamekey), those keys will
 > > be queued for tty input while we're suspended.  test by
 > > starting hexdump (or other key capture program), suspending,
 > > pushing any of the 8 keys on the bezel, and then resuming.
 > > note that the keys have registered.  (this is/was true in 708
 > > as well.)
 > 
 > The gamekeys go through PS2 so I'm guessing the EC is queeing that event for
 > us. I can reproduce the same sort of behaviour with by switching to console 
 > on the XO, sleeping via /sys/power/state on serial console, and then hitting
 > a keyboard key to wake up. On wakeup, the character appears on the shell.  
 > 
 > However, I just did the following here:
 > 
 > echo 0 > /sys/power/wakeup_events/ps2event
 > echo mem > /sys/power/state
 > hit a key
 > hit power button
 > 
 > And I don't see the character on console, which means it did not get
 > queued during suspend when wakeup on keypress is disabled. 
 > 
 > How are you trigerring resume?
 > 
 > (FYI, gamekey has been renamed ps2event in latest kernels)
 > 
 > > - the camera LED flashes while suspended.  suspend the laptop,
 > > use the touchpad or a keyboard key.  observe camera indicator
 > > blinking.  also true on 708.
 > 
 > The way suspend currently works is that we actually go all the way back to 
 > userland and OHM makes a decision on whether we actually want to wake up 
 > or not based on our current state and what triggered the wakeup. I'm 
 > guessing 
 > the flashing is the camera driver resuming the device. If you're running 
 > XFCE on top of our OHM, you should see the same behaviour. The wakeup_event
 > interface was put in place to stop this by allowing OHM to specify when
 > we want to actually be woken up.
 > 
 > > - this got me thinking about wakeups and keypresses in general.
 > >if we're configured to wake up on keypresses or gamepad
 > >presses (something i've not seen work yet, btw), then the
 > >keypress causing the wake should be suppressed.  don't know
 > >whether that's the case or not.
 > 
 > 
 > >From both our tests, it does not appear to be the case ATM.  Whether 
 > this is intended or not, someone who's been around longer needs to answer.
 > 
 > ~Deepak
 > 
 > -- 
 > Deepak Saxena - Kernel Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Terminals

[pgf]

michael wrote:
 > One of our present security difficulties is that the Terminal activity
 > is not isolated. It is de-isolated so that it can serve the dual role of
 > root terminal and 'general exploration' terminal. Perhaps reviving the
 > Quake Terminal for the root-terminal role and isolating the Terminal
 > activity proper would be a nice way to solve half of our security issue?

a) what's the Quake terminal, and b) how does it help?  (if it's an
activity, it would just move the problem, so i'm guessing it's not?)

paul
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Re: Terminals

[pgf]

erik wrote:
 > On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 11:03:39AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > numerous 'special keys' don't work at the console, including adjusting the 
 > > screen brightness.
 > 
 > To get this to work we would have to push olpc-specific drivers into the
 > kernel, correct?

not necessarily.  the keys can be monitored and acted on by a
daemon of some sort.

(but asking people to use the console with any regularity sure
feels like a copout.  "To enter shell commands, first type
'ctrl-alt-networkview'" just seems wrong.)

paul
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Re: odd yum dependency issues in joyride

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:43 AM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > i've been slowly moving my g1g1 machine forward to joyride (from 656).
 > > i had customized it quite a bit, and am trying to restore those changes.
 > > i've got xfce running, but a couple of yum dependencies (which were fine
 > > with F7) are failing.
 > >
 > > to wit:
 > >
 > > # yum install gcc
 > [...]
 > >  --> Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
 > glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)
 > > Error: Missing Dependency: glibc-common = 2.8-3 is needed by package 
 > glibc-2.8-3.i686 (installed)
 > 
 > Seems strongly related to trac #5056.

this problem has gone away, for me, in joyride 2230.

 > 
 > > # yum install firefox
 > [...]
 > > Error: Missing Dependency: gecko-libs = 1.9.0.1 is needed by package 
 > firefox-3.0.1-1.fc9.i386 (olpc_development)
 > 
 > Hmm, this might be a more fundamental mismatch, since we have a
 > specific version of gecko used for Browse.  You could always download
 > the standalone (unpackaged .tar.gz) version of Firefox.

this problem, however, still remains.  this is a regression (of sorts, since
firefox isn't really on the requirements list... yet) since the earlier
builds (656 at least -- i can't remember if i tried this install with 708
or not).

paul

 > 
 > Dennis?
 >  --scott
 > 
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Re: [sugar] Faster - how do I bypass "look, ma - no hands" ??

[pgf]

eben wrote:
 > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Mikus Grinbergs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Tried latest Faster -- is the small 'rodent' supposed to be cute ?
 > 
 > ??

i believe mikus is referring to the XFCE, uh, mascot:
   http://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.2-5.jpg

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Re: kernel preemption

[pgf]

victor wrote:
 > a question for the OS people: what is the level of preemption
 > in the olpc supplied kernel?
 > 

hi victor -- does this help?

$ grep PREEMPT .config
# CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE is not set
# CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY is not set
CONFIG_PREEMPT=y
# CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU is not set
CONFIG_DEBUG_PREEMPT=y

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Re: suspend on 'idle'

[pgf]

chris wrote:
 > 
 > I think what you actually want is one of two things:
 > 
 >* Not to suspend in the presence of any large network transfer.
 >  I think this would only be necessary for your ethernet case, since
 >  on wireless we're just going to be woken up by the next incoming
 >  packet.  As a result, I'm not so interested in adding this given
 >  that you can inhibit suspend manually.
 > 
 >* Not to suspend when a USB device capable of generating external
 >  interrupts (USB keyboard, USB ethernet) is plugged in.  I'd be
 >  willing to add that, but I haven't worked out what the best way
 >  to detect what classes of USB devices are being used is.  Maybe
 >  that's something you can help with?

this might be an approach for the first problem, too -- inhibit
suspend in the presence of a USB ethernet adapter (perhaps
conditioned on UP and RUNNING as well).

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Re: XO keeps staring at its own belly button

[pgf]

mikus wrote:
 > > This looks a *lot* like how an XO acts when Suspend is on.  See if the
 > > power LED has gone off and just blinks occasionally -- that's how you 
 > > really
 > > tell whether you are in suspend.  Power LED on steadily = no suspend.
 > > Power LED off most of the time, blinking on = you're suspended.
 > 
 > Thank you for the suggestion -- but this is NOT the case here.
 > 
 > I'm well acquainted with Suspend - it has effects which interfere 
 > with how I use my XO - so after installing I always do both 'touch 
 > /etc/ohm/inhibit-idle-suspend' and 'touch /etc/inhibit-ebook-sleep'. 
 > And my Power LED is on steadily -- showing I'm not in suspend.
 > 
 > The sluggishness is not consistent.  I particularly notice that at 
 > times, it can take more than three seconds before the XO responds to 
 > an alt-tab (after a period without any key presses).  This XO has a 
 > background (nice 19) task running on it which consumes 100% of the 
 > available CPU cycles -- I'm wondering if there is some kind of 

what task is that?

paul

 > keyboard service which expects the CPU to be "free" sometime?
 > 
 > 
 > mikus   (Joyride 2264, with some newer rpms applied manually)
 > 
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Re: XO keeps staring at its own belly button

[pgf]

i wrote:
 > mikus wrote:
 >  > The sluggishness is not consistent.  I particularly notice that at 
 >  > times, it can take more than three seconds before the XO responds to 
 >  > an alt-tab (after a period without any key presses).  This XO has a 
 >  > background (nice 19) task running on it which consumes 100% of the 
 >  > available CPU cycles -- I'm wondering if there is some kind of 
 > 
 > what task is that?
 > 

mikus has informed me that he's running a @home
client in the background.

mikus -- if you disable that client, is the system UI response normal?

paul
p.s. could someone please design the icon that should accompany
this thread?  :-)

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Re: Sound on the OLPC

[pgf]

hello shivaprasad:

 > I am trying to port an application from a normal Fedora system to work
 > on the XO. The application uses OSS API's which read and write to /dev/dsp
 > to acheive sound functionality. While porting I found out that the XO does
 > not have a /dev/dsp but has a single /dev/snd file for sound device. I tried
 > creating a sym link to /dev/dsp from /dev/snd which didnt work. Can anybody
 > help me out and suggest how else can I get the sound to work on the XO.

you may need to "modprobe snd-pcm-oss" in order to install the
OSS module, but i've never tried an OSS audio app on the XO, so i
can't guarantee success after that.  sound on the XO uses the
alsa audio system by default -- googling for OSS on alsa will probably
get you some information that may be relevant.

paul

 > 
 > Thanks
 > Shivaprasad

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Re: Sound on the OLPC

[pgf]

shivaprasad wrote:
 > Thanks for the information. I did a modprobe snd-pcm-oss and everything
 > started working perfectly well. Thank you very much.

that's good news.  i'm now curious as to why the module didn't get
loaded automatically, but that's a different topic.

paul

 > 
 > Thanks
 > Shivaprasad
 > 
 > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:52 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > > hello shivaprasad:
 > >
 > >  > I am trying to port an application from a normal Fedora system to
 > > work
 > >  > on the XO. The application uses OSS API's which read and write to
 > > /dev/dsp
 > >  > to acheive sound functionality. While porting I found out that the XO
 > > does
 > >  > not have a /dev/dsp but has a single /dev/snd file for sound device. I
 > > tried
 > >  > creating a sym link to /dev/dsp from /dev/snd which didnt work. Can
 > > anybody
 > >  > help me out and suggest how else can I get the sound to work on the XO.
 > >
 > > you may need to "modprobe snd-pcm-oss" in order to install the
 > > OSS module, but i've never tried an OSS audio app on the XO, so i
 > > can't guarantee success after that.  sound on the XO uses the
 > > alsa audio system by default -- googling for OSS on alsa will probably
 > > get you some information that may be relevant.
 > >
 > > paul
 > >
 > >  >
 > >  > Thanks
 > >  > Shivaprasad
 > >
 > > =-
 > >  paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > >

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Re: inhibiting suspend via dbus

[pgf]

smith wrote:
 > Deepak Saxena wrote:
 > > On Aug 09 2008, at 19:35, Mikus Grinbergs was caught saying:
 > >> One possibility -- OFW already tests for "is the XO plugged in?". 
 > >> Maybe Ohm can test for that, and decide that suspend is not needed 
 > >> when the battery is fully charged, and is not being drained.
 > > 
 > > I don't think this would work for us as in some locations electrical
 > > power is expensive and we want to conserve as much power as possible.
 > >
 > 
 > This was indeed the way ohm used to work but I argued against it because 
 >plugged up to external power in no way indicates you have a constant 
 > electrical source.  Many cases that will be sharing a connection to a 
 > solar panel or from a battery bank and you need to be save as much as 
 > possible all the time.

this could still be selectable.  while it's necessary to provide
for those scenarios, i suspect that most laptops will have
reliable external power.  i'd think a "don't suspend when plugged
in" checkbox would be useful for most owners.  (it could default
to "off".)

also, mikus' suggestion re: watching the rate of discharge is 
interesting.  i wonder if that might be a useful input to the OHM
policy engine?  (e.g. decrease timeouts when the rate of discharge
is high)  just an ill-formed thought.

paul
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git merge question -- conflicting whitespace

[pgf]

i'm trying to do a git-merge that's complicated by my having
changed all of the line endings in my working copy from CRNL to
simple NL.  further changes have since been made on the remote
branch that i cloned, and when i attempt a git-merge, the entire
file is in conflict, due to the difference in line-endings.

i'm surprised that (unlike git-diff, and to a lesser extent,
git-apply) git-merge has no provision for glossing over
whitespace differences.

i _think_ i can finesse (!) this by switching my files back to
CRNL endings, doing the merge, and then converting back.  (i
haven't yet experimented with this.)

any other suggestions?  (we're talking about roughly 20 files,
which are affected by about the same number of commits.)

(i also considered post-processing the patches that represent the
remote changes, and applying them with git-apply.  but then i lose
any history associated with those remote changes, which i'd rather
not do.)

paul
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Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO

[pgf]

shivaprasad wrote:
 > Its OK if I need to have root permissions only once right? I can change the

yes.

 > /etc/modules/ once during installation of the activity and need not load the
 > module every time I run the activity. I am new programming on Linux and
 > wasnt sure what to change to make the XO load the oss module on startup. So
 > my plan is if I  know how to make the XO load the  oss modules  I can do
 > this in a script and run the script during installation of the activity so
 > that when I launch the activity I would not need root permission.Could you
 > please tell me how to change /etc/modules to load oss modules on startup?

the file /etc/modules that erik mentioned isn't used on the XO, but
there's a similar mechanism in place.

create a new file /etc/sysconfig/modules, with a name that ends
in ".modules", like "oss.modules".  that file should be an executable
shell script which will load the modules you want.  see the existing
"olpc-1.modules" file in that directory as an example, but probably
all you need is a single "modprobe snd-pcm-oss" command.

this should cause your module to be installed when the XO boots.

paul

 > 
 > Thanks
 > Shivaprasad
 > 
 > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 06:16:58PM +0530, shivaprasad javali wrote:
 > > > Hi,
 > > >
 > > >I am porting a application to the XO. It uses the OSS sound Api's to
 > > > render sound. I found that the oss modules are not loaded on the xo by
 > > > default. I was able to load the oss modules by running modprobe
 > > snd-pcm-oss
 > > > which created the /dev/dsp and other device files required by the oss
 > > > modules and was able to run my application on the XO. But the problem is
 > > > every time I reboot the XO I will have to run the commands and load the
 > > oss
 > > > modules.
 > > >
 > > >Is there any way I can tell the XO to always load the oss modules?
 > > Even
 > > > if I have a script to run the commands on launching the application these
 > > > commands would require super user privileges which I wont have when I
 > > launch
 > > > the application from the activity bar. Any Ideas?
 > >
 > > Without root access, your activity will have difficulty modifying
 > > /etc/modules to enable autoloading the snd-pcm-oss module at boot.  I am
 > > unsure if there is any way around this issue unless the deployment scope
 > > for your activity is a set of machines on which you have root access.
 > >
 > > Erik
 > >
 > part 2 text/plain 129
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Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO

[pgf]

jim wrote:
 > I thought there was a library/shim/kernel option that allowed us to
 > emulate OSS on ALSA?

i think that's what snd-pcm-oss is.

 > 
 > In any case, anything not using ALSA at this date really should get
 > updated to ALSA
 >  - Jim
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 10:43 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > shivaprasad wrote:
 > >  > Its OK if I need to have root permissions only once right? I can change 
 > > the
 > > 
 > > yes.
 > > 
 > >  > /etc/modules/ once during installation of the activity and need not 
 > > load 
 > the
 > >  > module every time I run the activity. I am new programming on Linux and
 > >  > wasnt sure what to change to make the XO load the oss module on 
 > > startup. So
 > >  > my plan is if I  know how to make the XO load the  oss modules  I can do
 > >  > this in a script and run the script during installation of the activity 
 > > so
 > >  > that when I launch the activity I would not need root permission.Could 
 > > you
 > >  > please tell me how to change /etc/modules to load oss modules on 
 > > startup?
 > > 
 > > the file /etc/modules that erik mentioned isn't used on the XO, but
 > > there's a similar mechanism in place.
 > > 
 > > create a new file /etc/sysconfig/modules, with a name that ends
 > > in ".modules", like "oss.modules".  that file should be an executable
 > > shell script which will load the modules you want.  see the existing
 > > "olpc-1.modules" file in that directory as an example, but probably
 > > all you need is a single "modprobe snd-pcm-oss" command.
 > > 
 > > this should cause your module to be installed when the XO boots.
 > > 
 > > paul
 > > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Thanks
 > >  > Shivaprasad
 > >  > 
 > >  > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 > > wrote:
 > >  > 
 > >  > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 06:16:58PM +0530, shivaprasad javali wrote:
 > >  > > > Hi,
 > >  > > >
 > >  > > >I am porting a application to the XO. It uses the OSS sound 
 > > Api's to
 > >  > > > render sound. I found that the oss modules are not loaded on the xo 
 > > by
 > >  > > > default. I was able to load the oss modules by running modprobe
 > >  > > snd-pcm-oss
 > >  > > > which created the /dev/dsp and other device files required by the 
 > > oss
 > >  > > > modules and was able to run my application on the XO. But the 
 > > problem 
 > is
 > >  > > > every time I reboot the XO I will have to run the commands and load 
 > > the
 > >  > > oss
 > >  > > > modules.
 > >  > > >
 > >  > > >Is there any way I can tell the XO to always load the oss 
 > > modules?
 > >  > > Even
 > >  > > > if I have a script to run the commands on launching the application 
 > these
 > >  > > > commands would require super user privileges which I wont have when 
 > > I
 > >  > > launch
 > >  > > > the application from the activity bar. Any Ideas?
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Without root access, your activity will have difficulty modifying
 > >  > > /etc/modules to enable autoloading the snd-pcm-oss module at boot.  I 
 > > am
 > >  > > unsure if there is any way around this issue unless the deployment 
 > > scope
 > >  > > for your activity is a set of machines on which you have root access.
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Erik
 > >  > >
 > >  > part 2 text/plain 129
 > >  > ___
 > >  > Devel mailing list
 > >  > Devel@lists.laptop.org
 > >  > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
 > > 
 > > =-
 > >  paul fox, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > > ___
 > > Devel mailing list
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 > One Laptop Per Child

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Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO

[pgf]

noah wrote:
 > Why don't you fix the application instead of working around stupid
 > deprecated nonsense? That seems like a better use of everyone's time.

gee, that seems a little harsh.  :-)

i think the original poster made it clear that they're relatively
new to linux/unix programming, and are simply trying to get an
application (which was written to a prior, but still-supported,
kernel standard for audio) to work on the XO.  i'm not sure why
we would discourage someone from experimenting.  devel@ isn't
normally a user-support forum, but the original question was
pretty well focused.

paul

 > 
 > --Noah
 > 
 > > -Original Message-
 > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:devel-
 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of victor
 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:18 AM
 > > To: devel@lists.laptop.org
 > > Subject: Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO
 > > 
 > > Just tested here
 > > 
 > > $ modprobe snd-pcm-oss
 > > $ cat /dev/dsp > /dev/dsp
 > > 
 > > and I get lovely mic-speaker parrot feedback.
 > > I guess it's just about adding this modprobe line to the init scripts
 > > 
 > > VL
 > > - Original Message -
 > > From: "Jim Gettys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Deepak Saxena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > Cc: 
 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:58 PM
 > > Subject: Re: Loading the OSS modules on the XO
 > > 
 > > 
 > > >I thought there was a library/shim/kernel option that allowed us to
 > > > emulate OSS on ALSA?
 > > >
 > > > In any case, anything not using ALSA at this date really should get
 > > > updated to ALSA
 > > > - Jim
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 10:43 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > >> shivaprasad wrote:
 > > >>  > Its OK if I need to have root permissions only once right? I can
 > > >> change the
 > > >>
 > > >> yes.
 > > >>
 > > >>  > /etc/modules/ once during installation of the activity and need
 > > not
 > > >> load the
 > > >>  > module every time I run the activity. I am new programming on
 > > Linux
 > > >> and
 > > >>  > wasnt sure what to change to make the XO load the oss module on
 > > >> startup. So
 > > >>  > my plan is if I  know how to make the XO load the  oss modules  I
 > > can
 > > >> do
 > > >>  > this in a script and run the script during installation of the
 > > >> activity so
 > > >>  > that when I launch the activity I would not need root
 > > permission.Could
 > > >> you
 > > >>  > please tell me how to change /etc/modules to load oss modules on
 > > >> startup?
 > > >>
 > > >> the file /etc/modules that erik mentioned isn't used on the XO, but
 > > >> there's a similar mechanism in place.
 > > >>
 > > >> create a new file /etc/sysconfig/modules, with a name that ends
 > > >> in ".modules", like "oss.modules".  that file should be an
 > > executable
 > > >> shell script which will load the modules you want.  see the existing
 > > >> "olpc-1.modules" file in that directory as an example, but probably
 > > >> all you need is a single "modprobe snd-pcm-oss" command.
 > > >>
 > > >> this should cause your module to be installed when the XO boots.
 > > >>
 > > >> paul
 > > >>
 > > >>  >
 > > >>  > Thanks
 > > >>  > Shivaprasad
 > > >>  >
 > > >>  > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Erik Garrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > >> wrote:
 > > >>  >
 > > >>  > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 06:16:58PM +0530, shivaprasad javali
 > > wrote:
 > > >>  > > > Hi,
 > > >>  > > >
 > > >>  > > >I am porting a application to the XO. It uses the OSS
 > > sound
 > > >> Api's to
 > > >>  > > > render sound. I found that the oss modules are not loaded on
 > > the
 > > >> xo by
 > > >>  > > > default. I was able to load the oss modules by running
 > > modprobe
 > > >>  > > snd-pcm-oss
 > > >>  > > > which created the /dev/dsp and other device files required by
 > > the
 > > >> oss
 > > >>  > > > modules and was able to run my application on the XO. But the
 > > >> problem is
 > > >>  > > > every time I reboot the XO I will have to run the commands
 > > and
 > > >> load the
 > > >>  > > oss
 > > >>  > > > modules.
 > > >>  > > >
 > > >>  > > >Is there any way I can tell the XO to always load the oss
 > > >> modules?
 > > >>  > > Even
 > > >>  > > > if I have a script to run the commands on launching the
 > > >> application these
 > > >>  > > > commands would require super user privileges which I wont
 > > have
 > > >> when I
 > > >>  > > launch
 > > >>  > > > the application from the activity bar. Any Ideas?
 > > >>  > >
 > > >>  > > Without root access, your activity will have difficulty
 > > modifying
 > > >>  > > /etc/modules to enable autoloading the snd-pcm-oss module at
 > > boot.
 > > >> I am
 > > >>  > > unsure if there is any way around this issue unless the
 > > deployment
 > > >> scope
 > > >>  > > for your activity is a set of machines on which you have root
 > > >> access.
 > > >>  > >
 > > >>  > > Erik
 > > >>  > >

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Re: #8041 HIGH 9.1.0: Sugar lacks a "Trash/Recycle bin" system

[pgf]

bastien wrote:
 > "Martin Langhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 > 
 > >>> But my point was that, at the moment, you can choose to "Erase" an item, 
 > >>> and
 > >>> it's gone forever. I expect that many kids will do this, and will at 
 > >>> some 
 > point
 > >>> regret erasing some item.
 > >>
 > >> Yes.  This is a request that has been made here in Haïti.
 > >
 > > AFAIK, the plan is to *discourage* deletion until the disk is getting
 > > full. When you are getting to disk-full, "trashcan" doesn't help.
 > 
 > Yes it does: it contains entries that the system can safely delete
 > without forcing the user to go thru the entries and sort them out on 
 > the fly.

does the journal have a similar way of marking entries
as "feel free to delete this if i need the space"?  i think
giving it hints as to what's expendable would be important.

 > >  - no old-and-backed-up files we can safely remove? Prompt the user

prompt the user, interrupting whatever they were trying to get
done?  that seems less than optimal.  if my current UI-of-choice
implemented "disk full" this way, i would have long
ago created personal mechanisms help me organize my work into
"very important, must save", "would be nice to keep, but i can
recreate it if i want", and "don't really need it, but i won't
throw it away until necessary".

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Re: #8041 HIGH 9.1.0: Sugar lacks a "Trash/Recycle bin" system

[pgf]

bastien wrote:
 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 > 
 > >  > >  - no old-and-backed-up files we can safely remove? Prompt the user
 > >
 > > prompt the user, interrupting whatever they were trying to get
 > > done?  that seems less than optimal.  if my current UI-of-choice
 > > implemented "disk full" this way, i would have long
 > > ago created personal mechanisms help me organize my work into
 > > "very important, must save", "would be nice to keep, but i can
 > > recreate it if i want", and "don't really need it, but i won't
 > > throw it away until necessary".
 > 
 > That makes a lot of choices.  

yes, but my point was that they're all choices we all already
make, voluntarily:  some things might go under change control,
and/or we rsync to another server for redundancy.  some things we
back up compulsively onto a USB stick we carry in our pocket. 
some things we keep around, but don't back up.  some things we
download into /tmp, because we don't care if it lasts past a
reboot.  all choices regarding the importance of our data.

a data management UI must make these sorts of choices transparent
and easy.

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Re: #8041 HIGH 9.1.0: Sugar lacks a "Trash/Recycle bin" system

[pgf]

eben wrote:
 ...
 > I hope this clarifies my position on this subject a bit, and paints a

it does.  thank you.

paul

 > picture which is really just a different perspective on the usual
 > "trash can" metaphor, rather than an abandonment of it.
 > 
 > - Eben

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Re: Cerebro (was Re: Almost 50% less free memory in joyride-2302 compared with Update.1 (708))

[pgf]

ton van overbeek wrote:
 > Also idle suspend is enabled again in 2325, while it should be off.

i think this was intentional.  now that we're building separate
release ("Subject: New release8.2 build 7nn") and joyride streams, idle
suspend was re-enabled in joyride in order to help continue
flushing out suspend-related bugs.

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Re: Is it possible to boot alternative OS from an USB stick?

[pgf]

mitch wrote:
 > Open Firmware can boot ELF binaries directly.  Put your .elf file in the 
 > root directory on a USB key that is formatted with either a FAT 
 > filesystem (preferred) or an ext2 filesystem.  Then, on an unsecured XO 
 > laptop, type:
 > 
 > ok boot u:\myprogram.elf

mitch -- where are OFW capabilities such as this, and the "client
interface" mentioned below, documented?  (i suspect i've probably
seen the doc somewhere in my wiki travels, and didn't at the time
recognize it for what it was.)

paul

 > 
 > In the case of SqueakNOS, you will also have to deal with the fact that 
 > the screen resolution is 1200x900.  According to my reading of the 
 > SqueakNOS docs on the web, it only supports 1024x768 at present.
 > 
 > You will also face the problem that none of the XO's mass storage 
 > devices (NAND FLASH, SD card, USB mass storage) or network devices (USB 
 > wireless LAN, USB wired network interfaces) are on the SqueakNOS 
 > supported list.
 > 
 > One quick way to address that would be to build a simple call gateway 
 > whereby Squeak could call the OFW "client interface" and thus use the 
 > OFW drivers for those devices.  OFW has drivers for every builtin device 
 > on the XO, and for quite a few plugin USB devices.   The OFW client 
 > interface is called via a single subroutine entry point, passing a 
 > single argument - a pointer to an array that tells which subfunction to 
 > invoke and provides argument and result pointers.  From C, the only 
 > assembly language necessary is a couple of instructions in the early 
 > startup, to move the address of the gateway routine from a register to a 
 > variable from whence it can be later called as an indirect function.
 > 
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Re: olpc.fth and OFW api docs

[pgf]

mitch wrote:
 > paul fox wrote:
 > > mitch wrote:
 > >  > Open Firmware can boot ELF binaries directly.  Put your .elf file in 
 > > the 
 > >  > root directory on a USB key that is formatted with either a FAT 
 > >  > filesystem (preferred) or an ext2 filesystem.  Then, on an unsecured XO 
 > >  > laptop, type:
 > >  > 
 > >  > ok boot u:\myprogram.elf
 > >
 > > mitch -- where are OFW capabilities such as this, and the "client
 > > interface" mentioned below, documented?  (i suspect i've probably
 > > seen the doc somewhere in my wiki travels, and didn't at the time
 > > recognize it for what it was.)
 > >   
 > 
 > My recent rewrite of the Olpc.fth wiki page documents the basics from 
 > the XO perspective.

thanks.  that page is now the excellent boot reference i was
hoping for.  :-)

 > 
 > The primary documentation for the client interface is in the IEEE Open 
 > Firmware standard; you might be able to find a near-final draft online 
 > with a bit of searching.
 > 
 > FirmWorks sells a book that explains the client interface in gory 
 > detail.  There might be a copy floating around 1cc; there are certainly 
 > some copies of the FirmWorks OFW command reference manual.
 > 
 > The OFW source tree contains some example programs that use the client 
 > interface; look in the "clients/" subdirectory.
 > 
 > A general-purpose call gateway, with templates for all the standard 
 > client services, can be found in the Linux kernel source at 
 > http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=olpc-2.6;a=blob;f=arch/x86/kernel/ofw.c

great.  needless to say, i'll be saving this message.  (and i'm changing
the Subject to make it easier to find.)

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Re: Is it possible to boot alternative OS from an USB stick?

[pgf]

hilaire wrote:
 > Any pointer to what is OFW? I don't find it in the wiki.

search for "Open Firmware".
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Open_Firmware

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Re: XO activity bundle .info format

[pgf]

bobby wrote:
 > On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 7:56 PM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Mikus Grinbergs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > >> Undoubtedly people who are dbus developers understand the proper use
 > >> of the "organization_namespace".  But suppose someone in a far
 > >> corner of the world wishes to contribute.  All he knows is that a
 > >> three-part name-string gets applied to his Activity's interaction
 > >> with the rest of the system.  Since *he* never tests that name, he
 > >> may feel free to put anything at all into that name-string.
 > >>
 > >> I believe that life ought to be made as easy as possible for people
 > >> who want to enhance their Sugar systems.  Requiring "correctness" in
 > >> all parts of name-strings, when to non-insiders those name-strings
 > >> might seem meaningless, does not make their participation easier.
 > >
 > > Some time ago I tried to better document the expectations for
 > > bundle_id at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format.
 > 
 > I found this page very helpful and clear when I was first bundling my
 > activity back in May, thanks Scott.  I think that requiring
 > correctness is actually helpful in the long term, if anything we
 > should try to make the documentation more accessible.

it's helpful, but could be better.  how should i, an individual
contributor with no particular "domain" that i own or belong to,
construct a name?  the given example of "com.redhat.Sugar.BrowserActivity"
isn't much of a guideline in that case.  should i just make one
up?  (and, in the case of my one and only activity, there was no
python involved, so the entire second half of the paragraph was
inapplicable.)

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Re: Power-on to GUI in 20 seconds

[pgf]

bert wrote:
 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0fAUGRUDVA
 > 
 > Brought to you by Gerardo Richarte, with bootstrapping help from Mitch  
 > Bradley.

i can't resist pointing out that we could probably do that with
linux too, if we weren't committed to using an off-the-shelf desktop
distribution.

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Re: Power-on to GUI in 20 seconds

[pgf]

bert wrote:
 > Am 29.08.2008 um 15:34 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 > 
 > > bert wrote:
 > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0fAUGRUDVA
 > >>
 > >> Brought to you by Gerardo Richarte, with bootstrapping help from  
 > >> Mitch
 > >> Bradley.
 > >
 > > i can't resist pointing out that we could probably do that with
 > > linux too, if we weren't committed to using an off-the-shelf desktop
 > > distribution.
 > 
 > Are we committed to that?

i suspect so.  it gives us huge leverage in terms of reducing
development time and in increased numbers of familiar developers. 
while i'm sure there's a bunch of savings that could be had
in boot time, some of it would come in terms of reduced or
delayed services and system flexibility.  the fact is that
once the XO is up and running, it's an extremely powerful,
full-fledged workstation.  (approximately speaking, of course. :-)
there's something to be said for that.

(i do think we should be making our dual-boot capabilities
equally available for all OSes.  i'd love to be able to
(trivially) try SqueakNOS or debxo, for instance, or be able to
experiment with application-specific fast-bootable images.  and i
think a lot of G1G1 folks that might prefer an "alternate"
distribution of some sort for day-to-day would probably like to
keep the OLPC code around as well, just to keep their laptops
"stock", and to track our progress.)

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browse and x11 performance

[pgf]

is there a bug open on this issue?

i reverted a machine to joyride 2212, which, as indicated in #7787, was
before pygame.mixer was lost, and then brought back.

bounce works fine in that build -- performance and audio are very
acceptable.  there's still mouse cursor flicker, i think related
to the continuous frame-rate display in the corner.  but in newer
joyrides the whole screen is choppy.

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Re: oops -- i meant "bounce" (was "browse") and x11 performance

[pgf]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > is there a bug open on this issue?
 > 
 > i reverted a machine to joyride 2212, which, as indicated in #7787, was
 > before pygame.mixer was lost, and then brought back.
 > 
 > bounce works fine in that build -- performance and audio are very
 > acceptable.  there's still mouse cursor flicker, i think related
 > to the continuous frame-rate display in the corner.  but in newer
 > joyrides the whole screen is choppy.
 > 
 > paul
 > =-
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Re: bounce and x11 performance

[pgf]

daniel wrote:
 > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:30 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > > is there a bug open on this issue?
 > > 
 > > i reverted a machine to joyride 2212, which, as indicated in #7787, was
 > > before pygame.mixer was lost, and then brought back.
 > > 
 > > bounce works fine in that build -- performance and audio are very
 > > acceptable.  there's still mouse cursor flicker, i think related
 > > to the continuous frame-rate display in the corner.  but in newer
 > > joyrides the whole screen is choppy.
 > 
 > Did you typo browse for bounce in the subject?
 > 
 > I don't think there's a bug open.

done -- #8289

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Re: Google Chrome activity?

[pgf]

carol wrote:
 > According to /. the license includes:
 > 
 > *"By submitting, posting or displaying the content you give Google a
 > perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive license
 > to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly
 > display and distribute any content which you submit, post or display on or
 > through, the services. This license is for the sole purpose of enabling
 > Google to display, distribute and promote the services and may be revoked
 > for certain services as defined in the additional terms of those services."*

however, it also seems that this google EULA covers their
executable, and not their open-source licensed code.  so apparently it's
the case that one could build an equivalent browser using google's
code and not be covered by these terms.  (at least, that's what i
understand from further reading.)

paul

 > 
 > 
 > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 9:35 AM, C. Scott Ananian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Ton van Overbeek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > > wrote:
 > > > Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
 > > >> On 9/3/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] * <[EMAIL 
 > > >> PROTECTED]
 > > >> > wrote:
 > > >> On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
 > > >> Anyone here motivated to turn Chrome into an activity?
 > > > The open source project is on http://dev.chromium.org.
 > > > There are instructions for a Linux build, but it has the following
 > > warning:
 > > >
 > > > Note: There is /no/ working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although
 > > > many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass,
 > > > all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable.
 > >
 > > That means it's ripe for a sugar-based UI!
 > >
 > > I actually think the "popups included in parent window" model is a
 > > better fit for the XO than any of the gecko-based browsers we've got
 > > so far.  You can drag tabs and popups out into their own "window"
 > > which would be the equivalent of creating a separate "activity
 > > instance" in the frame for them.  The security model is very
 > > compatible with bitfrost, as is their javascript VM.
 > >
 > > I'm actually intrigued by the possibility of using the V8 javascript
 > > VM to run python bytecodes; their VM seems much better suited to
 > > executing python than many of the other VMs that have been targeted in
 > > the past, and the caching and serialization mechanisms provided would
 > > allow us to do the "rainbow pre-fork" stuff, but much better.  The
 > > real question is whether it could be made to coexist with modules
 > > written to the existing python native code interface, since pygtk Must
 > > Work.
 > >  --scott
 > >
 > > --
 > >  ( http://cscott.net/ )
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 > >
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > -- 
 > Americans always do the right thing, after trying everything else. --
 > Winston Churchill
 > part 2 text/plain 129
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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

On Tue, 2008-09-09 at 00:10 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> 
> - This means that we need to measure how our memory consumption
>   profile has changed since our previous releases. 
> 
>   (cscott observes that we were unable to attack the F-9 image size
>   issues until we were able to quantify the effect of changes we had
>   made or were considering making. Consequently, he suggests that we
>   will be unable to attack our current space consumption problems
>   until we are able to generate good numbers (and displays).)

what's the baseline "previous" release for this comparison?

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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Tomeu Vizoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > stability issue? AFAIK, we haven't seen OOM conditions without any
 > > activity open.
 > 
 > Yes, we have.  In particular, if you update your system and then leave
 > it for a while, and later click the software update control panel, you
 > end up OOMing in the control panel.  Sugar restarts and reports are
 > that software update "works fine the second time".  So this might well
 > be a sugar leak; killing 'sugar' is not good for stability.


i think there's definitely a sugar shell leak.  here's some
partial data, gathered from a few machines on my desk right now.

(be careful with the column headings -- i rearranged partway through
to get separate CODE and DATA columns.)

(also, don't do an absolute compare between the 708 build and the
759 build -- the latter is chock full of activites, the former
has none at all.)


build 708:
top - 17:45:17 up 59 min,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.05, 0.01
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
1741 olpc  15   0 53128  27m  13m4  14m 12.2 python

same build 708, roughly twenty minutes later:
top - 18:03:16 up  1:17,  3 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
1741 olpc  15   0 53308  28m  13m4  14m 12.3 python

build 759:
top - 12:20:00 up 39 min,  4 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.11
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
1461 olpc  20   0 60576  33m  14m S  0.3 14.5   0:48.38 python

same build 759, almost two hours later:
top - 14:04:11 up  2:23,  3 users,  load average: 0.04, 0.06, 0.08
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
1461 olpc  20   0 65964  38m  14m4  23m 16.7 python

finally, i have a joyride-2263, which has been up for 6 days.  i
don't have copy/paste access to it, but the sugar shell is currently
taking 99.6m VIRT, 64m RES, 14m SHR, and is using 28% of system memory.

paul

p.s.  in addition, i think a lot of system processes have grown
somewhat.  for instance, "login" now has 100k more DATA space in
759 than it had in 708.  others (e.g., xinit) haven't grown at
all.  (also "measured" with top.)


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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

i wrote:
 > 
 > i think there's definitely a sugar shell leak.  here's some
 > partial data, gathered from a few machines on my desk right now.
 > 
 > (be careful with the column headings -- i rearranged partway through
 > to get separate CODE and DATA columns.)
 > 
 > (also, don't do an absolute compare between the 708 build and the
 > 759 build -- the latter is chock full of activites, the former
 > has none at all.)
 > 
 > 
 > build 708:
 > top - 17:45:17 up 59 min,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.05, 0.01
 >  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
 > 1741 olpc  15   0 53128  27m  13m4  14m 12.2 python
 > 
 > same build 708, roughly twenty minutes later:
 > top - 18:03:16 up  1:17,  3 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.00
 >  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
 > 1741 olpc  15   0 53308  28m  13m4  14m 12.3 python

another hour later on 708:
top - 19:06:19 up  2:21,  3 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
1741 olpc  15   0 53576  28m  13m4  15m 12.3 python

call it 200 KB/hour?

 > 
 > build 759:
 > top - 12:20:00 up 39 min,  4 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.11
 >  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
 > 1461 olpc  20   0 60576  33m  14m S  0.3 14.5   0:48.38 python
 > 
 > same build 759, almost two hours later:
 > top - 14:04:11 up  2:23,  3 users,  load average: 0.04, 0.06, 0.08
 >  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
 > 1461 olpc  20   0 65964  38m  14m4  23m 16.7 python

and another hour on 759:

top - 15:07:25 up  3:27,  3 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.04, 0.02
 PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR CODE DATA %MEM COMMAND
1461 olpc  20   0 70468  42m  14m4  28m 18.6 python

seems more like 4.5 MB/hour.

(there are a lot of variables in play here -- the main thing is
that something's certainly leaking.)

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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

tomeu wrote:
 > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:13 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > (there are a lot of variables in play here -- the main thing is
 > > that something's certainly leaking.)
 > 
 > The shell shouldn't be doing anything while idle, so checking if the
 > trigger is activity network would help here.

point of reference:  on irc you mentioned the buddy list had
been an issue in the past.  does the sugar shell maintain that
even when that screen isn't visible?

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Re: [sugar] wireless lights

[pgf]

mikus wrote:
 > > What would a concise and accurate definition of the wireless lights
 > > (for 8.2) be?
 > 
 > To ordinary users, they are  'Meaningless eye candy'.
 > 
 > They appear to not be 100% reliable if lit.
 > 
 > They certainly are meaningless when blinking.
 > 
 > They even appear to not be 100% reliable if not lit.

mikus -- i think brian was looking for something that
would fit on the picture, as a label.  can you be
more succinct?  ;-)

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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

tomeu wrote:
 > On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:05 PM, James Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > > Has anyone got an idea of how to measure the heap by usage?
 > 
 > Not from outside python, but from inside we are using heapy:
 > 
 > http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/

i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
i had been hoping to be able to "attach" to the sugar shell process,
in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.

btw, i continued doing monitoring of the machines i had running:
i need to look again after they've been running overnight when i
get to the office, but the growth i was seeing may be network related,
as tomeu suggested yesterday.  (i had at least one case of no growth
at all when i had disabled the wireless.)

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Re: Expected date for 8.2.0

[pgf]

eben wrote:
 > We removed that for two reasons.  First, as an indicator it was
 > actually really subtle; it didn't grab attention.  Second, it
 > effectively stripped the identity of the server itself, since each AP
 > is identified by a pair of colors.  Removing the stroke color made it
 > unclear which AP was which.
 > 
 > We feel confident in removing this indicator thanks to the new design
 > for the Frame (which includes devices), since it's just as easy
 > (actually, less inconvenient) to reveal the Frame to see quickly and
 > unambiguously which, if any, AP is connected.

i don't see how requiring keyboard/mouse interaction is less
inconvenient than simply looking at the screen.  we already
distinguish various circles with little ornaments or bulls-eye
rings.  surely one more style wouldn't be terrible.  remember
that one usually already knows which AP is expected to be connected --
it's the one that was just clicked on, or which was clicked on 
yesterday.  finding it on the screen isn't an issue.  (well, maybe
at 1cc it is, but not in the average setting.)  (also, having the network
icon in the frame is important when you're not on the network view,
and not when you are.)

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Re: Stability and Memory Pressure in 8.2

[pgf]

tomeu wrote:
 > On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:37 PM, riccardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Paul,
 > >
 > > On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 08:18 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > >> i started down that path yesterday afternoon, and realized that it
 > >> wasn't clear to me how i needed to invoke it.  it seems to want
 > >> to be imported before you start the rest of your program, which
 > >> sort of forces you into interactive mode.  is that your understanding?
 > >> i had been hoping to be able to "attach" to the sugar shell process,
 > >> in the way one might do with gdb.  perhaps that's not possible.
 > >>
 > >
 > > There is kick-start tutorial on how to use heapy's remote monitor at the
 > > 56th page of http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy-thesis.pdf
 > >
 > > For the shell I use to put `import guppy.heapy.RM' before any other
 > > import statement in main.py.
 > 
 > Another pointer:
 > 
 > http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/heapy_Use.html#heapykinds.Use.monitor
 > 
 > Other ways of using guppy are logging out periodically the heap with
 > gobject.timeout_add or patching keyhandler.py to print the heap (or a
 > diff of it) when a key combination is pressed.

thank you for both of those pointers.

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Re: Scratch Sensor Board needs access to TTYUSB*

[pgf]

thanks -- filed as trac #8434.  this is an issue for any USB serial
adapter, not just the Scratch sensor board.

paul

john wrote:
 > Hi, Jim.
 > 
 > Claudia Urrea would like to get the Scratch Sensor Board working on  
 > the XO. There was a minor bug in the Scratch serial port support,  
 > which I've now fixed. The fix will be in the next Scratch activity  
 > bundle. But the other problem is that the USB port is not readable and  
 > writable by default. I've posted some instructions at 
 > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Scratch#Scratch_Sensor_Board 
 >   (also attached below).
 > 
 > It would much better if XO users did not need to do this Unix black  
 > magic. Could we get this rule (or equivalent) into the standard build?
 > 
 > Thanks!
 > 
 >  -- John
 > 
 > 
 > --
 > NOTE: There is a bug in Scratch v7 and earlier that keeps the sensor  
 > board from working. I've fixed the bug and am working on updating the  
 > Scratch activity. But once the new activity is ready, the following  
 > should get the sensor board working.
 > 
 > To use the Scratch Sensor Board or Pico Sensor Board 
 > (http://scratch.wik.is/Support/Sensor_Boards 
 > ), you must add a file to the folder:
 > 
 > /etc/udev/rules.d
 > 
 > This file should contain the single line:
 > 
 > KERNEL=="ttyUSB*", MODE="0666"
 > 
 > Adding this file allows Scratch to read and write data to the sensor  
 > board. You will need to make yourself root using the "su" command in  
 > order to add a file to that folder.
 > --
 > 
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Re: Getting a path to SUGAR_ACTVITY_ROOT

[pgf]

john -- scott's not in the office right now, so i'll take a stab
at this.  your code snippet looks fine, except for the typo in
"SUGAR_ACTVITY_ROOT".  i hope that's all it is.

paul

john wrote:
 > Hi, Scott.
 > 
 > I wonder if you could give me a bit of guidance. The Scratch file  
 > dialogs have shortcuts for common folders on Windows and Mac, such as  
 > the desktop and the user's documents folder. Most of these shortcuts  
 > make no sense on the XO, but I thought that perhaps the documents  
 > shortcut could go to $SUGAR_ACTVITY_ROOT/data. But my first attempt to  
 > lookup that environment variable did not seem to work (although I have  
 > not tried it in the context of your new wrapper; maybe it does work  
 > now).
 > 
 > Anyhow, the code I wrote to do this is:
 > 
 >  char *s = NULL;
 > 
 >  path[0] = 0;  // a zero-length path indicates failure
 > 
 >  s = getenv("SUGAR_ACTVITY_ROOT");
 >  if (s != NULL) {
 >  strncat(path, s, maxPath);
 >  strncat(path, "/data", maxPath);
 >  }
 > 
 > where path is a C string passed in by the client that is supposed to  
 > get filled in with the path to documents folder.
 > 
 > I'm not used to programming in Unix. Does this look okay to you?
 > 
 >  -- John
 > 
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Re: Scratch Sensor Board needs access to TTYUSB*

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:50 PM, John Maloney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > To use the Scratch Sensor Board or Pico Sensor Board
 > > (http://scratch.wik.is/Support/Sensor_Boards), you must add a file to the
 > > folder:
 > >
 > > /etc/udev/rules.d
 > >
 > > This file should contain the single line:
 > >
 > > KERNEL=="ttyUSB*", MODE="0666"
 > >
 > > Adding this file allows Scratch to read and write data to the sensor board.
 > > You will need to make yourself root using the "su" command in order to add 
 > > a
 > > file to that folder.
 > 
 > Isn't the traditional thing to have the tty* devices owned by the
 > serial group (uucp or dialout group if you're a real old-timer) and
 > then set certain users to be members of that group?  It seems like you
 > really want scratch's UID to be a member of the 'serial' group.
 > Michael?

but this would only solve the problem for scratch, and not for
other activities and legacy programs that want to use USB serial. 
you're suggesting that every activity that might need access to
a serial port be modifide?

(frankly, the restriction on device access to specific groups only
makes sense when those devices are "important" in some way. 
since the user is free to unplug and discard this device, i
hardly think it matters if they use it as intended.)

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Re: "Home"

[pgf]

mikus wrote:
 > I notice that Joyride on the XO no longer has a /root directory - 
 > just a link to a nonexistent place.  Is that an intentional security 
 > change ?

no, just a bug.

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Re: mechanisms tied to mesh: "under a tree" collab

[pgf]

benjamin m. schwartz wrote:
 > 
 > The wired-ethernet case is already working, and has been for a year or
 > more.  Drop Sugar onto two Thinkpads connected to the same subnet, and
 > they will instantly find each other over Avahi, etc.  If it's a wireless
 > network, or if you have XOs with ethernet dongles, they'll also see any
 > XO's that are also connected to that AP.  (Actually, Sugar will also find
 > any nearby Macs running Avahi, but doesn't quite know what to do with them.)

i need to point out that ethernet dongles don't seem to play at
all well with suspend/resume, so the scenarios that you describe
may have worked well in the past, and may work well on first
boot, or first device insertion, but will stop working
immediately if you close/open your lid, or otherwise suspend.  :-/

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Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities

[pgf]

benjamin m. schwartz wrote:
 > Chris Ball wrote:
 > | So, we shipped 19 activities with G1G1v1; that means the ten activities
 > | people vote for here are likely to be a subset of that list, and we
 > | aren't learning much about what new things we should include.  People
 > | replying might decide to give 20 suggestions instead of 10, or to omit
 > | original G1G1 activities from their list.
 > |
 > 
 > Also, G1G1v1 shipped with the old Sugar interface, which made managing
 > large numbers of installed Activities very difficult.  By contrast, the
 > new Sugar UI means that we could easily ship 100 Activities, with only 15
 > starred by default.  Activities' average size on disk varies
 > substantially, but many simpler ones are only about 100 KB, compressed.
 > 100 Activities * 100 KB = 10 MB, or 1% of the disk.  Each additional
 > Activity provides more opportunity for exploration, and makes the
 > experience more enjoyable, so I would advocate for shipping as many as
 > possible.

i disagree, to the extent that the activities appear on the laptop
in a completely unorganized fashion -- there's no real notion of
topic, or testedness, or age-appropriateness.  too many can make
the prospect of exploring them overwhelming, especially given how
long it takes to try them, and that most of the names bear almost
no relation to the content.  i think it's better to ship a a good
representative sample, and clear instructions (somewhere -- is it
at least in a pre-loaded library page?) on how to explore and get
more from our wiki.

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Re: testing 8.2 using qemu

[pgf]

ton van overbeek wrote:
 > Michael Stone wrote:
 > > Gabriel,
 > >
 > > To understand Rainbow, start by reading
 > >
 > >http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Security
 > >http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API#Security
 > >http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rainbow
 > >
 > > or by asking people about it on IRC.
 > >
 > > Michael
 > >
 > > P.S. - You wrote that
 > >
 > >   
 > >> Since there is little documentation on rainbow (I still don't
 > >> know what it is and why including it broke the activity) I'm going to
 > >> follow a hack suggested by brian...
 > >> 
 > >
 > > Could you tell me a bit about where and how you looked for documentation
 > > so that I can try to put documentation that exists in places where you
 > > would have found it (or create new documentation if needed)?
 > >   
 > Michael,
 > 
 > Although I am not Gabriel, I do have some viewpoints on the questions 
 > you asked.
 > 
 > If you do not know where to look it is difficult to find the rainbow 
 > isolation information
 > (uid pool, gid pool, which directories are writable, etc. compared with 
 > a classic Unix/Linux system).
 > I would expect a basic description of the rainbow model from the 
 > activity developer point of view
 > already linked to from the main Developers page 
 > (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Developers),
 > since there is where you would start to look beginning from the left 
 > hand navigation on the wiki.

part of the trouble is that, since rainbow wasn't enabled in the
earlier builds, activities had no need to follow the requirements
set forth in the "low level activity api" page:
   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API
legacy apps that created .config directories in $HOME worked just
fine.  they do not under rainbow.  but if the activity guidelines
are followed, then the activity "just works" with rainbow.

that being said, i agree that there should be a page explaining
the theory (in lightweight terms) and practical ramifications (in
detailed terms) of rainbow.  and, assuming that such a page (or
pages) exist, they should be heavily linked to from the low-level
api page, since they'll explain the rationale behind the
otherwise overly strict seeming restrictions of the api.

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Re: G1G1v2 Activities

[pgf]

douglas wrote:
 > Gary C Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > 
 > >
 > > Perhaps correcting http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_tutorial would
 >> help?
 > 
 > Good point -- done, at least for host_version and bundle_id.  As it
 > happens the actually published HelloWorld activity is one of the
 > worst offenders, having no activity_version.  That might even break
 > things.
 > 
 > > I'm showing my age here, but is bundle_id a replacement for
 > > service_name? Seem to be identical.
 > 
 > It is, they are.  I'm not sure why it changed, and all the code I've
 > seen tries both, but the spec is adamant (that's
 > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles).

huh.  here's where it changed, almost a year ago:

http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=Activity_bundles&diff=69258&oldid=69078

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trac question: search with AND?

[pgf]

can i search for (the equivalent of) "power AND external" in trac?

if not, can we change trac to _always_ do that, instead of
an OR search?  i can't remember the last time i actually wanted
an OR search, whereas i almost always want an AND search.

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Re: trac question: search with AND?

[pgf]

noah wrote:
 > On Sep 20, 2008, at 5:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > 
 > > can i search for (the equivalent of) "power AND external" in trac?
 > >
 > > if not, can we change trac to _always_ do that, instead of
 > > an OR search?  i can't remember the last time i actually wanted
 > > an OR search, whereas i almost always want an AND search.
 > 
 > This would require a report to be made.

thanks noah --

of course.  i just didn't want to file a report if what i really
had was a case of RTFM.  :-)

(i take it the answer to my initial question is "no".)

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Re: trac question: search with AND?

[pgf]

michael wrote:
 > Paul,
 > 
 > I think what Noah meant was that you would need to create a Trac Report.
 > Read http://dev.laptop.org/wiki/TracReports for more info.


but it's a bug, so i reported it as such.

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Re: trac question: search with AND?

[pgf]

this thread ended in the trac tickets, so to be sure no one
was misled by my claims:  it turns out i was completely mistaken
(apparently from misreading some specific search results)
about trac's search behavior.  multiple search terms are indeed
AND'ed together in the search, as one would expect they should
be.

sorry for the noise.

paul


i wrote:
 > noah wrote:
 >  > On Sep 20, 2008, at 5:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 >  > 
 >  > > can i search for (the equivalent of) "power AND external" in trac?
 >  > >
 >  > > if not, can we change trac to _always_ do that, instead of
 >  > > an OR search?  i can't remember the last time i actually wanted
 >  > > an OR search, whereas i almost always want an AND search.
 >  > 
 >  > This would require a report to be made.
 > 
 > thanks noah --
 > 
 > of course.  i just didn't want to file a report if what i really
 > had was a case of RTFM.  :-)
 > 
 > (i take it the answer to my initial question is "no".)
 > 
 > paul

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Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal

[pgf]

c. scott ananian wrote:
 > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Eduardo H. Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > > Ah, so that's why you separate these legacy-hierarchical files with a
 > > light grey slash (/) . So that a kid who only knows the Journal
 > > tagging world can ignore it, and users who have know the hierarchical
 > > world can understand it and make advance usage of that knowledge when
 > > transfering from or browsing hierarchical filesystems.
 > 
 > Exactly. =)

seems like acknowledging the "path form" of these
directory-derived tags might also make working with devices for
which no tag list has been, or can be, created.  i.e., when you
first install a large new USB stick, there will certainly be a
delay before a tag index can or will be built.  the grey slashes
might be black during that time.

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