[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote: > Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish > darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet > becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true?
[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
( In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen there: https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php ) On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Cl?ment wrote: > Hi all, > > First, let's see the current situation : > > > #Navigation : > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies. > > #Browse Freenet page : > > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing. > However, why do we have : > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet. Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS to be easy to enter a Freenet URI. > ?Current Activity? : idem > > #Messages : > > I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the > bookmarks, it's not the good place. > I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : > sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space. > > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers : > > Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity > of the node ? Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers are DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is separate, it helps having a clear overview over your friends list. Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your friends page, especially if we consider that there will be more "social functions" on the friends page in the future. > #Internet Connection : > > ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug > informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a > page for that in fact..) I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page, I really think it is bare legacy and should be removed. > or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use > ?jSite / Thingamablog / > the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name? instead.' Possibility > to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite available for all. This is a very good idea! > Propose to clear all the finished downloads. > Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now). > Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl > (like in the connection to friends page). "Clear all" options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and some javascript to check them all. > Insert as : > * CHK : explain what it is > * SSK/USK : idem > * KSK : idem + ask for the name Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this: https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030 > > Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ? If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development team so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref - Can't we write a "crawler" mode for fred so it can automatically harvest seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it: On most other p2p networks, you don't have to. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090524/8b410584/attachment.pgp>
[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote: > On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Cl?ment wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > First, let's see the current situation : > > > > > > #Navigation : > > > > 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but > > they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies. > > Agreed, we need sub-menus. > > > #Browse Freenet page : > > > > The ?Search Freenet? field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing. > > However, why do we have : > > ?Fetch a key? : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet. > > Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue > page. I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it! > > In which case we don't show the menu item. > > If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much > space that newbies don't see the rest of the page. > > There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message > list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page > where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark > updates on the browse freenet page). > > We should probably either > 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or > 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends. It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if something has happened. But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes. > > > #Connections to friends + connections to strangers : > > > > Why 2 separate pages ? > > Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different > IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers > are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc. Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true? - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage users to do something. > > Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are > IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet > page and maybe others Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090524/d9fbcb31/attachment.pgp>
[freenet-dev] Why WoTs won't work....
On Friday 22 May 2009 17:22:45 Evan Daniel wrote: > No, that is not sufficient. The attack that makes it necessary (which > is also possible on FMS, btw -- in fact it's even more effective) is > fairly simple. A spammer gets a dummy identity trusted manually by > other people. He then has it mark several other identities as > trustworthy. Those identities then spam as much as is worthwhile > (limited only by message count limits, basically). The spammer then > removes them from the dummy identity published trust list, adds new > spamming identities, and repeats. The result is that his one main > identity can get a large quantity of spam through, even though it can > only mark a limited number of child identities trusted and each of > them can only send a limited amount of spam. If the spammer removes them from his main identities identity's trust list, then Freetalk will not download messages from them any more because there is no "route of trust" from the root of the trust tree (your own identity) to the "several other identities"! So the several other child identities will not have a positive score anymore. - If he does not remove his child identities from his main identity's trust list, then getting rid of the spammer is a matter of distrusting his main identity. At least that's how I've understood the current code of the WoT plugin. Correct me if I'm wrong.. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090524/801cd089/attachment.pgp>
[freenet-dev] Why WoTs won't work....
> > No one can really censor FMS alright, BUT there IS a problem with those > 'censored trust lists' anyway. The existance of censored trust lists forces > users to actively maintain their own trust lists, the WoT wont work 'on its > own' as it would if everyone used it the way it's supposed to. > > Let me try to explain: if everyone used wot to block flood attacks and > nothing else, new users wouldnt need to try and find out which trust lists > are 'good', they wouldnt need to work on thir trust lists for hours every > day, try to spot censors or "guys who wont block pedos", they could simply > use FMS and occasianlly set a high trust for someone they actually trust, > or lower the trust for someone they caught spamming > > But the current situation makes FMS a pain in the ass. Users have to work > on your trust lists regularly, and new users risk (and probably do) to have > some of the content blocked by some censor because the guy posted one > message on a board that the censor found 'immoral'. > > It may take time until the new user figures out which trust lists to use, > and there's a very real risk that he would think that it isnt worth the > hassle and give up on FMS completely. This is nonsense. As long as it works, people will not quit using FMS. People are lazy. If something works, they use it. IF they quit something, the first thing which they quit will be to maintain their trust list. And that is acceptable, in a WoT not *everyone* has to maintain his trust list, only a certain amount of users. >> I did that, others did that, and more > will. > > THAT is the real problem with the Little Brothers, not their non-existent > ability to censor content. they cant censor anything and they know it. But > they can and do make FMS a pain in the ass to use. It's not the software which is a pain in the ass to use, but the author of that post is making the usage a pain in the ass to himself: He forces himself to over-maintain his trust list which then annoys him? This is clearly not a bug in the software but a "human" misbehavior of the poster: He over-stresses himself and then loses motivation. Not the problem of software writers... > > Another problem is that, assuming that the fms community will survive > (which i dontthink it will), it my end up split into a number of closed > sub-communities that refuse to talk to each other. But this is only a > guess, so far. We'll have to see how it turns out. Yes, it is a guess. And it is completely acceptable. That's what also happens in our society, with different political groups, etc. It is human and inevitable. > > In the meantime, making FMS into a PITa has been done already, that is why > FMS is as good as dead, and that's why I think that invesiting develpers' > time and effort into WoT and Freetalk is a huge waste: FMS failed because > of human stupidity and arrogance, and so will Freetalk/WoT, and I really > cant understand why the devs cant see the obvious (or refuse to admit it) Again this is nonsense: FMS failed because of a lack of users. And the lack of users came from it's difficult setup (running an extra binary, which has to be manually upgraded very often) and UI, and the fact that it is not integrated into fproxy so most Freenet newbies won't even get to see it. All this will be solved by Freetalk via easy-to-use integration into fproxy. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090524/88c1b477/attachment.pgp>
[freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Saturday, 23. May 2009 20:03:25 Matthew Toseland wrote: > Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment. > > Isn't it better to just say "You have 5 messages from friends" ? Or "You > have 1 new messages from friends" ? I'm not perfectly sure, but I think it would suffice. Maybe I reacted too emotionally... Best wishes, Arne --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - singing a part of the history of free software - http://infinite-hands.draketo.de -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20090524/f2449e95/attachment.pgp>
[freenet-dev] Why WoTs won't work....
On Saturday, 23. May 2009 16:06:51 Matthew Toseland wrote:
> People will game the system, no? If they think paedophiles are scum who
> should not be allowed to speak, and they realise that clicking "This is
> spam" is more effective than "This is crap", they will click the former,
> no?
Not if the penalty for marking something falsely as spam is to lose all trust
for their own messages ("You falsely reported spam -> you're a spammer") while
the "penalty" for thinking different is simply that their ratings won't be
taken as seriously.
(I hope the above is possible in the implementation).
Best wishes,
Arne
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
- singing a part of the history of free software -
http://infinite-hands.draketo.de
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Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Saturday, 23. May 2009 20:03:25 Matthew Toseland wrote: Well, no other alert is shown in full at the moment. Isn't it better to just say You have 5 messages from friends ? Or You have 1 new messages from friends ? I'm not perfectly sure, but I think it would suffice. Maybe I reacted too emotionally... Best wishes, Arne --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - singing a part of the history of free software - http://infinite-hands.draketo.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Why WoTs won't work....
No one can really censor FMS alright, BUT there IS a problem with those 'censored trust lists' anyway. The existance of censored trust lists forces users to actively maintain their own trust lists, the WoT wont work 'on its own' as it would if everyone used it the way it's supposed to. Let me try to explain: if everyone used wot to block flood attacks and nothing else, new users wouldnt need to try and find out which trust lists are 'good', they wouldnt need to work on thir trust lists for hours every day, try to spot censors or guys who wont block pedos, they could simply use FMS and occasianlly set a high trust for someone they actually trust, or lower the trust for someone they caught spamming But the current situation makes FMS a pain in the ass. Users have to work on your trust lists regularly, and new users risk (and probably do) to have some of the content blocked by some censor because the guy posted one message on a board that the censor found 'immoral'. It may take time until the new user figures out which trust lists to use, and there's a very real risk that he would think that it isnt worth the hassle and give up on FMS completely. This is nonsense. As long as it works, people will not quit using FMS. People are lazy. If something works, they use it. IF they quit something, the first thing which they quit will be to maintain their trust list. And that is acceptable, in a WoT not *everyone* has to maintain his trust list, only a certain amount of users. I did that, others did that, and more will. THAT is the real problem with the Little Brothers, not their non-existent ability to censor content. they cant censor anything and they know it. But they can and do make FMS a pain in the ass to use. It's not the software which is a pain in the ass to use, but the author of that post is making the usage a pain in the ass to himself: He forces himself to over-maintain his trust list which then annoys him… This is clearly not a bug in the software but a human misbehavior of the poster: He over-stresses himself and then loses motivation. Not the problem of software writers... Another problem is that, assuming that the fms community will survive (which i dontthink it will), it my end up split into a number of closed sub-communities that refuse to talk to each other. But this is only a guess, so far. We'll have to see how it turns out. Yes, it is a guess. And it is completely acceptable. That's what also happens in our society, with different political groups, etc. It is human and inevitable. In the meantime, making FMS into a PITa has been done already, that is why FMS is as good as dead, and that's why I think that invesiting develpers' time and effort into WoT and Freetalk is a huge waste: FMS failed because of human stupidity and arrogance, and so will Freetalk/WoT, and I really cant understand why the devs cant see the obvious (or refuse to admit it) Again this is nonsense: FMS failed because of a lack of users. And the lack of users came from it's difficult setup (running an extra binary, which has to be manually upgraded very often) and UI, and the fact that it is not integrated into fproxy so most Freenet newbies won't even get to see it. All this will be solved by Freetalk via easy-to-use integration into fproxy. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Why WoTs won't work....
On Friday 22 May 2009 17:22:45 Evan Daniel wrote: No, that is not sufficient. The attack that makes it necessary (which is also possible on FMS, btw -- in fact it's even more effective) is fairly simple. A spammer gets a dummy identity trusted manually by other people. He then has it mark several other identities as trustworthy. Those identities then spam as much as is worthwhile (limited only by message count limits, basically). The spammer then removes them from the dummy identity published trust list, adds new spamming identities, and repeats. The result is that his one main identity can get a large quantity of spam through, even though it can only mark a limited number of child identities trusted and each of them can only send a limited amount of spam. If the spammer removes them from his main identities identity's trust list, then Freetalk will not download messages from them any more because there is no route of trust from the root of the trust tree (your own identity) to the several other identities! So the several other child identities will not have a positive score anymore. - If he does not remove his child identities from his main identity's trust list, then getting rid of the spammer is a matter of distrusting his main identity. At least that's how I've understood the current code of the WoT plugin. Correct me if I'm wrong.. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Friday 22 May 2009 23:38:35 Matthew Toseland wrote: On Friday 22 May 2009 17:31:46 Clément wrote: Hi all, First, let's see the current situation : #Navigation : 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies. Agreed, we need sub-menus. #Browse Freenet page : The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing. However, why do we have : “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet. Some users DO want to fetch a key. But maybe it should be on the queue page. I disagree. Fetching a key in Freenet is like entering an address in an internet browser, it should be very obvious where to do it! In which case we don't show the menu item. If we put all the messages on the main page in full, they take up so much space that newbies don't see the rest of the page. There are a number of messages that take up multiple slots on the message list when they should really just post a summary and point to another page where they are in full (e.g. n2ntms should be on the friends page, bookmark updates on the browse freenet page). We should probably either 1) not link the messages page from the main menu, but keep it, or 2) make messages expand themselves when you click on them I think we should just keep the messages page a separate one, it is very useful because you can get an overview of ALL news in your node: Finished downloads, uploads, updated freesite, node-to-node messages from friends. It is very useful if you regularly visit your node and want to know if something has happened. But expanding the messages via javascript is a nice idea, yes. #Connections to friends + connections to strangers : Why 2 separate pages ? Because they are different! Friends and Strangers are completely different IMHO. Friends have names, you can send them text messages, etc. Strangers are just numbers - normal users don't care about their IP address, etc. Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true? - More download speed is usually something which can help to encourage users to do something. Putting the messages *only* here is a bad idea. Some of these messages are IMPORTANT. What we need to do is: - show the summary on the Browse Freenet page and maybe others Summary should always been on Browse Freenet page, yes. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
( In general, currently the list of usability issues I have filed can be seen there: https://bugs.freenetproject.org/roadmap_page.php ) On Friday 22 May 2009 18:31:46 Clément wrote: Hi all, First, let's see the current situation : #Navigation : 9 items is really the max we can afford. Currently there are 9 items, but they aren't all necessary, and can confuse the newbies. #Browse Freenet page : The “Search Freenet” field and bookmarks are definitly a good thing. However, why do we have : “Fetch a key” : we don't want to fetch a key, we want to browse Freenet. Fetching a key is a CORE functionality, it is like the address bar in an internet browser! If the Freenet community is alive, it will happen very often that people paste each others Freenet URIs via IM, email, etc. It HAS to be easy to enter a Freenet URI. “Current Activity” : idem #Messages : I agree we need to inform user when something is wrong. However, for the bookmarks, it's not the good place. I don't think either that there should be one page just for the messages : sometimes there is no message, it just wastes space. #Connections to friends + connections to strangers : Why 2 separate pages ? Why showing informations about the current activity of the node ? Because we need the users to know very well that connections to strangers are DANGEROUS and should be avoided. If the friend connections page is separate, it helps having a clear overview over your friends list. Further, strangers are not interesting, so they should not bloat your friends page, especially if we consider that there will be more social functions on the friends page in the future. #Internet Connection : ??? It doesn't even work here... And when it works, it shows debug informations or really advanced ones. Why a level 1 page for that ? (why a page for that in fact..) I have already filed a bug for getting rid of the internet connection page, I really think it is bare legacy and should be removed. or display a message like 'This feature is not yet available. Please use “jSite / Thingamablog / the-other-freesite-manager-I-don't-remember-the-name” instead.' Possibility to add some instructions, like how to make a freesite available for all. This is a very good idea! Propose to clear all the finished downloads. Propose to clear or stop the downloads one-by-one (as now). Add a checkbox to all downloads, and propose and action for the selected dl (like in the connection to friends page). Clear all options would be very useful, yes. Maybe with checkboxes and some javascript to check them all. Insert as : * CHK : explain what it is * SSK/USK : idem * KSK : idem + ask for the name Explanation would be a VERY good idea, consider this: https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=3030 Don't show the opennet ref : we don't need it, do we ? If you want to become a seednode you need to submit it to the development team so it gets added manually in the seednodes.fref - Can't we write a crawler mode for fred so it can automatically harvest seednodes on opennet? Many people will have enabled seednode mode but not submitted their reference because they do not know that they have to do it: On most other p2p networks, you don't have to. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Why current ui may be improved, and proposed improvements
On Sunday, 24. May 2009 16:52:00 xor wrote: Full ACK. Friends page HAS to be separate to encourage users to establish darknet connections. Maybe we should even write something about Freenet becoming faster with more friend connections - if that's true? From my experience it is faster - I added two darknet connections again after some time on opennet, and my (subjective) speed (time to get a page) got a massive bump up. Best wishes, Arne --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - singing a part of the history of free software - http://infinite-hands.draketo.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
