Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
> On 31 May 2018, at 18:07, Clément Aubin wrote: > > On 05/31/2018 05:44 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: >> >> >>> On 31 May 2018, at 17:28, Clément Aubin wrote: >>> >>> On 05/31/2018 04:42 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: >>> >>> […] >>> > I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social > networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think > about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are > rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least > think about. Did I say we should not think about it? >>> >>> Oh I'm sure that you didn't said that, but this would need a more >>> in-depth investigation, and not just 2 days of implementation. >> >> No no this is out of scope for now. >> >>> Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you can send to multiple people. >>> >>> I'm not talking about sending a message to groups, but to multiple >>> individuals. >> >> I know and out of scope for now. >> >>> > Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do > nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you > think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if > we do need it ? Ok so we have a big disagreement: * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and there’s no use case for it” >>> >>> Please don't rephrase me like that :) . The current notifications are, >>> IMO correctly displayed (and we're not debating about how to display >>> notifications AFAIK). >> >> Sorry I meant ‘displaying messages in the notifications UI in the proposed >> way is a bad thing and there’s no use case for it” >> >>> However, I don't think that the notification >>> center has been crafted to correctly display user messages. Merging >>> events coming from the wiki and messages coming from the message stream >>> is tricky. >> >> Why? They’re both coming from the same location, i.e. event table… > > Mostly because user messages (as in private, user to user messages) can > be related from one to another (ie : the message B that you just sent me > is a response from the message A that I sent you). You will then need > some context to display the response from someone in your notification > center. I don't think that we have an easy way to do that now. We could actually (since the event stream allows for 4-5 custom params). However, I wouldn’t do answers FTM (I don’t think we had this before either). Just ability to send messages. > >>> * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to a single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to do it”. Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what you want, i.e. nothing! >>> >>> It's disabled by default for now, but it's actually proposed to enable >>> it, else the proposal (2) would not make any sense. >> >> It’s not proposed FTM. Maybe you’re mixing the display of messages when >> there are some with the messageSender macro usage on the dashboard? > > I'm talking about user messages as in [1] ; so private, user to user > messages. > >>> That also raises a problem : how can I be sure that you will be able to >>> receive my message if I don't know in advance if you have enable or >>> disabled your ability to receive messages in your notification preferences ? >> >> The proposal Guillaume is implementing is to have them enabled by default. >> >> But indeed that could be refinement in the future that you can’t send >> messages to someone if they have disabled the reception. It’s out of scope >> though. >> >>> >>> […] >>> > Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of > notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished > feature" : messaging is something done in real time. Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is another feature. > If you forget to > refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to > refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say that email is useless… >>> >>> Ha ok, indeed, I didn't though about a non-live implementation of a >>> messaging system. IMO that's still something old (as nowadays, almost >>> every messaging system are live, even on forums and boards, that used to >>> propose this idea of personal messages a lot). >> >> email is old but the most used system :) So old doesn’t mean useful! >> >>> This could be an improvement idea if and only if we have an "inbox" or >>> something in which we can put the messages that a user received in order >>>
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
On 05/31/2018 05:44 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: > > >> On 31 May 2018, at 17:28, Clément Aubin wrote: >> >> On 05/31/2018 04:42 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: >> >> […] >> I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least think about. >>> >>> Did I say we should not think about it? >> >> Oh I'm sure that you didn't said that, but this would need a more >> in-depth investigation, and not just 2 days of implementation. > > No no this is out of scope for now. > >> >>> Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you can >>> send to multiple people. >> >> I'm not talking about sending a message to groups, but to multiple >> individuals. > > I know and out of scope for now. > >> Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if we do need it ? >>> >>> Ok so we have a big disagreement: >>> * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and >>> there’s no use case for it” >> >> Please don't rephrase me like that :) . The current notifications are, >> IMO correctly displayed (and we're not debating about how to display >> notifications AFAIK). > > Sorry I meant ‘displaying messages in the notifications UI in the proposed > way is a bad thing and there’s no use case for it” > >> However, I don't think that the notification >> center has been crafted to correctly display user messages. Merging >> events coming from the wiki and messages coming from the message stream >> is tricky. > > Why? They’re both coming from the same location, i.e. event table… Mostly because user messages (as in private, user to user messages) can be related from one to another (ie : the message B that you just sent me is a response from the message A that I sent you). You will then need some context to display the response from someone in your notification center. I don't think that we have an easy way to do that now. >> >>> * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to a >>> single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to >>> do it”. >>> >>> Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what you >>> want, i.e. nothing! >> >> It's disabled by default for now, but it's actually proposed to enable >> it, else the proposal (2) would not make any sense. > > It’s not proposed FTM. Maybe you’re mixing the display of messages when there > are some with the messageSender macro usage on the dashboard? I'm talking about user messages as in [1] ; so private, user to user messages. >> That also raises a problem : how can I be sure that you will be able to >> receive my message if I don't know in advance if you have enable or >> disabled your ability to receive messages in your notification preferences ? > > The proposal Guillaume is implementing is to have them enabled by default. > > But indeed that could be refinement in the future that you can’t send > messages to someone if they have disabled the reception. It’s out of scope > though. > >> >> […] >> Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished feature" : messaging is something done in real time. >>> >>> Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re >>> implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is >>> another feature. >>> If you forget to refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. >>> >>> This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say >>> that email is useless… >> >> Ha ok, indeed, I didn't though about a non-live implementation of a >> messaging system. IMO that's still something old (as nowadays, almost >> every messaging system are live, even on forums and boards, that used to >> propose this idea of personal messages a lot). > > email is old but the most used system :) So old doesn’t mean useful! > >> This could be an improvement idea if and only if we have an "inbox" or >> something in which we can put the messages that a user received in order >> for him to check on them later. > > Yes notifications is an inbox for notifications. We have that already. you > can even ack them. > >> >> […] >> So we're putting back something that has been disabled by default since more than one year without giving it enough features to be usable for a standard user (things like being able to get messages in real time, for
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
> On 31 May 2018, at 17:28, Clément Aubin wrote: > > On 05/31/2018 04:42 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: > > […] > >>> I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social >>> networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think >>> about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are >>> rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least >>> think about. >> >> Did I say we should not think about it? > > Oh I'm sure that you didn't said that, but this would need a more > in-depth investigation, and not just 2 days of implementation. No no this is out of scope for now. > >> Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you can >> send to multiple people. > > I'm not talking about sending a message to groups, but to multiple > individuals. I know and out of scope for now. > >>> Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do >>> nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you >>> think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if >>> we do need it ? >> >> Ok so we have a big disagreement: >> * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and >> there’s no use case for it” > > Please don't rephrase me like that :) . The current notifications are, > IMO correctly displayed (and we're not debating about how to display > notifications AFAIK). Sorry I meant ‘displaying messages in the notifications UI in the proposed way is a bad thing and there’s no use case for it” > However, I don't think that the notification > center has been crafted to correctly display user messages. Merging > events coming from the wiki and messages coming from the message stream > is tricky. Why? They’re both coming from the same location, i.e. event table… > >> * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to a >> single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to do >> it”. >> >> Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what you >> want, i.e. nothing! > > It's disabled by default for now, but it's actually proposed to enable > it, else the proposal (2) would not make any sense. It’s not proposed FTM. Maybe you’re mixing the display of messages when there are some with the messageSender macro usage on the dashboard? > That also raises a problem : how can I be sure that you will be able to > receive my message if I don't know in advance if you have enable or > disabled your ability to receive messages in your notification preferences ? The proposal Guillaume is implementing is to have them enabled by default. But indeed that could be refinement in the future that you can’t send messages to someone if they have disabled the reception. It’s out of scope though. > > […] > >>> Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of >>> notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished >>> feature" : messaging is something done in real time. >> >> Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re >> implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is >> another feature. >> >>> If you forget to >>> refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to >>> refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. >> >> This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say >> that email is useless… > > Ha ok, indeed, I didn't though about a non-live implementation of a > messaging system. IMO that's still something old (as nowadays, almost > every messaging system are live, even on forums and boards, that used to > propose this idea of personal messages a lot). email is old but the most used system :) So old doesn’t mean useful! > This could be an improvement idea if and only if we have an "inbox" or > something in which we can put the messages that a user received in order > for him to check on them later. Yes notifications is an inbox for notifications. We have that already. you can even ack them. > > […] > >>> So we're putting back something that has been disabled by default since >>> more than one year without giving it enough features to be usable for a >>> standard user (things like being able to get messages in real time, for >>> example). For me, it's both a waste of time, and this might even degrade >>> the image of XWiki as it (IMO) won't be a very useful feature. >> >> I disagree with you and I’ve already explained in details the reasons in a >> bullet point list. >> >>> I think that sending messages into the event stream was kind of a bad >>> idea from the beginning as messages don't have the same "weight" as >>> other wiki events. >> >> The event stream has nothing to do with weight. It’s a timeline thing. It’s >> like saying: “having emails displayed in the order they are sent is a bad >> idea”. > > Using your
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
Here is how the message, mentions and app notif could look like http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/UserMessageNotifications I also would not put the messageSender macro in the Notifications area, since it will crowd it. For me, if we want messages we really need an Inbox in the User Profile, but that's something for the future. So, what I would do is create the events and the notifications displays, but leave the send message macro as it is. It can be integrated in the page by using the macro and activate it from Administration, but is not something we would recommend in the current state. Thanks, Caty On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau < guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com> wrote: > 2018-05-31 17:24 GMT+02:00 Guillaume Delhumeau < > guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com>: > > > I see a problem. If the message stream is disabled, the preferences > > buttons about the messages are still displayed in the notification > > settings... > > > > The way it works is by fetching all components that match some the role > > "RecordableEventDescriptor", but there is no conditional section to > decide > > either or not the preference concerning the event type should be > displayed. > > > > I will just introduce a new isEnabled() method to the descriptor. Sorry for > the noise. > > > > > > > 2018-05-31 16:42 GMT+02:00 Vincent Massol : > > > >> > >> > >> > On 31 May 2018, at 16:23, Clément Aubin wrote: > >> > > >> > On 05/31/2018 03:18 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: > >> >> Hi Clement, > >> >> > >> >>> On 31 May 2018, at 14:56, Clément Aubin > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> [snip] > >> >> > >> > >> All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, > >> please post > >> it quickly :) > >> >>> > >> >>> I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream > >> >>> implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the > >> >>> notification system to act as a messaging center. > >> >>> > >> >>> - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with > >> >>> multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the > >> notification > >> >>> center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations > >> in > >> >>> it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which > >> would > >> >>> probably fill most of the notification center ? > >> >> > >> >> This is not supported ATM (see http://extensions.xwiki.org/xw > >> iki/bin/view/Extension/Message%20Stream%20Application/) so no issue > FTM. > >> You can only send messages to a given user, to a group or to everyone.> > >> >> I don’t see a problem to add this feature later on if we need it. > >> > > >> > I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social > >> > networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think > >> > about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are > >> > rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at > least > >> > think about. > >> > >> Did I say we should not think about it? > >> > >> Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you > >> can send to multiple people. > >> > >> > Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do > >> > nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you > >> > think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even > if > >> > we do need it ? > >> > >> Ok so we have a big disagreement: > >> * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and > >> there’s no use case for it” > >> * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages > to > >> a single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being > able to > >> do it”. > >> > >> Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what > >> you want, i.e. nothing! > >> > >> > > >> >>> - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on > >> the > >> >>> same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time > >> to > >> >>> time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here > if > >> >>> and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification > >> center > >> >>> every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, > >> new > >> >>> messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. > >> >> > >> >> I don’t see this related at all to messaging. You have the same > >> problem for any kind of notifications. This is related to live > >> notifications and something generic for the notifications feature. > >> >> > >> >> I don’t agree with "The messaging feature of the notification is > >> interesting here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the > >> notification center every X seconds”. Again I don’t see why this is > related > >> only to messaging and also I find it more useful to have messaging than > >> nothing (which is what you propose). I can imagine plenty of use cases > >> where it’s
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
2018-05-31 17:24 GMT+02:00 Guillaume Delhumeau < guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com>: > I see a problem. If the message stream is disabled, the preferences > buttons about the messages are still displayed in the notification > settings... > > The way it works is by fetching all components that match some the role > "RecordableEventDescriptor", but there is no conditional section to decide > either or not the preference concerning the event type should be displayed. > I will just introduce a new isEnabled() method to the descriptor. Sorry for the noise. > > 2018-05-31 16:42 GMT+02:00 Vincent Massol : > >> >> >> > On 31 May 2018, at 16:23, Clément Aubin wrote: >> > >> > On 05/31/2018 03:18 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: >> >> Hi Clement, >> >> >> >>> On 31 May 2018, at 14:56, Clément Aubin wrote: >> >> >> >> [snip] >> >> >> >> All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, >> please post >> it quickly :) >> >>> >> >>> I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream >> >>> implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the >> >>> notification system to act as a messaging center. >> >>> >> >>> - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with >> >>> multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the >> notification >> >>> center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations >> in >> >>> it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which >> would >> >>> probably fill most of the notification center ? >> >> >> >> This is not supported ATM (see http://extensions.xwiki.org/xw >> iki/bin/view/Extension/Message%20Stream%20Application/) so no issue FTM. >> You can only send messages to a given user, to a group or to everyone.> >> >> I don’t see a problem to add this feature later on if we need it. >> > >> > I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social >> > networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think >> > about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are >> > rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least >> > think about. >> >> Did I say we should not think about it? >> >> Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you >> can send to multiple people. >> >> > Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do >> > nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you >> > think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if >> > we do need it ? >> >> Ok so we have a big disagreement: >> * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and >> there’s no use case for it” >> * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to >> a single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to >> do it”. >> >> Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what >> you want, i.e. nothing! >> >> > >> >>> - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on >> the >> >>> same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time >> to >> >>> time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if >> >>> and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification >> center >> >>> every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, >> new >> >>> messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. >> >> >> >> I don’t see this related at all to messaging. You have the same >> problem for any kind of notifications. This is related to live >> notifications and something generic for the notifications feature. >> >> >> >> I don’t agree with "The messaging feature of the notification is >> interesting here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the >> notification center every X seconds”. Again I don’t see why this is related >> only to messaging and also I find it more useful to have messaging than >> nothing (which is what you propose). I can imagine plenty of use cases >> where it’s still useful to have messaging without the auto refresh. I >> consider auto refresh to be a nice improvement to have not as a "must have >> or there’s no value”. >> > >> > Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of >> > notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished >> > feature" : messaging is something done in real time. >> >> Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re >> implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is >> another feature. >> >> > If you forget to >> > refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to >> > refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. >> >> This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say >> that email is useless… >> >> > >> >>> All in all, I'm very concerned that we try to ship a half finished >> >>> feature that cannot be used
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
On 05/31/2018 04:42 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: […] >> I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social >> networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think >> about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are >> rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least >> think about. > > Did I say we should not think about it? Oh I'm sure that you didn't said that, but this would need a more in-depth investigation, and not just 2 days of implementation. > Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you can > send to multiple people. I'm not talking about sending a message to groups, but to multiple individuals. >> Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do >> nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you >> think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if >> we do need it ? > > Ok so we have a big disagreement: > * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and > there’s no use case for it” Please don't rephrase me like that :) . The current notifications are, IMO correctly displayed (and we're not debating about how to display notifications AFAIK). However, I don't think that the notification center has been crafted to correctly display user messages. Merging events coming from the wiki and messages coming from the message stream is tricky. > * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to a > single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to do > it”. > > Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what you > want, i.e. nothing! It's disabled by default for now, but it's actually proposed to enable it, else the proposal (2) would not make any sense. That also raises a problem : how can I be sure that you will be able to receive my message if I don't know in advance if you have enable or disabled your ability to receive messages in your notification preferences ? […] >> Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of >> notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished >> feature" : messaging is something done in real time. > > Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re > implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is > another feature. > >> If you forget to >> refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to >> refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. > > This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say > that email is useless… Ha ok, indeed, I didn't though about a non-live implementation of a messaging system. IMO that's still something old (as nowadays, almost every messaging system are live, even on forums and boards, that used to propose this idea of personal messages a lot). This could be an improvement idea if and only if we have an "inbox" or something in which we can put the messages that a user received in order for him to check on them later. […] >> So we're putting back something that has been disabled by default since >> more than one year without giving it enough features to be usable for a >> standard user (things like being able to get messages in real time, for >> example). For me, it's both a waste of time, and this might even degrade >> the image of XWiki as it (IMO) won't be a very useful feature. > > I disagree with you and I’ve already explained in details the reasons in a > bullet point list. > >> I think that sending messages into the event stream was kind of a bad >> idea from the beginning as messages don't have the same "weight" as >> other wiki events. > > The event stream has nothing to do with weight. It’s a timeline thing. It’s > like saying: “having emails displayed in the order they are sent is a bad > idea”. Using your example, you're not just displaying emails, you're also displaying a ton of notifications about the documents that have been updated in your wiki. > The way even stream events are displayed is an implementation detail. They > can be filtered, grouped, etc. I don't think that you should require a user to tune his notification preferences in order not to be flooded by notifications. Having messages is kind of a risk here because this implementation detail does not protect the user enough from the messages hiding other important events. > >> I do understand that you don't like loosing features, >> but since I've known XWiki, I've never heared of the Message Stream in a >> good, useful and productive way. > > Then you shouldn’t care at all since it’s not going to be used and you’re not > the one implementing it. It’s also off by default. See the beginning of my response. > So reading between the line, in the end you’re saying: > * We shouldn’t have a messaging feature because what we need
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
> On 31 May 2018, at 16:23, Clément Aubin wrote: > > On 05/31/2018 03:18 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: >> Hi Clement, >> >>> On 31 May 2018, at 14:56, Clément Aubin wrote: >> >> [snip] >> All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post it quickly :) >>> >>> I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream >>> implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the >>> notification system to act as a messaging center. >>> >>> - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with >>> multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the notification >>> center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations in >>> it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which would >>> probably fill most of the notification center ? >> >> This is not supported ATM (see >> http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Message%20Stream%20Application/) >> so no issue FTM. You can only send messages to a given user, to a group or >> to everyone.> >> I don’t see a problem to add this feature later on if we need it. > > I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social > networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think > about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are > rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least > think about. Did I say we should not think about it? Also as I wrote you can send to a group and to everyone too so yes you can send to multiple people. > Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do > nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you > think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if > we do need it ? Ok so we have a big disagreement: * You say “displaying notifications in the proposed way is bad thing and there’s no use case for it” * I say “‘displaying notifications for those who want to send messages to a single person, to a group or to everyone is better than not being able to do it”. Also note that it’s disabled by default ATM so by default you get what you want, i.e. nothing! > >>> - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on the >>> same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time to >>> time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if >>> and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification center >>> every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, new >>> messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. >> >> I don’t see this related at all to messaging. You have the same problem for >> any kind of notifications. This is related to live notifications and >> something generic for the notifications feature. >> >> I don’t agree with "The messaging feature of the notification is interesting >> here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification >> center every X seconds”. Again I don’t see why this is related only to >> messaging and also I find it more useful to have messaging than nothing >> (which is what you propose). I can imagine plenty of use cases where it’s >> still useful to have messaging without the auto refresh. I consider auto >> refresh to be a nice improvement to have not as a "must have or there’s no >> value”. > > Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of > notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished > feature" : messaging is something done in real time. Again we don’t agree about this. We’re not implementing a chat. We’re implementing message sending as in email sending. Live message sending is another feature. > If you forget to > refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to > refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. This is exactly what you do with your email and I don’t think you can say that email is useless… > >>> All in all, I'm very concerned that we try to ship a half finished >>> feature that cannot be used for real collaboration and that still takes >>> some place in the UI ; >> >> Maybe there’s a misunderstanding: We’re not trying to develop a messaging >> feature. This feature already exists and we’re not touching this. >> >> All that we’re doing is add the ability to display messages in the >> notification UI if some messages are present in the Event Stream table. >> >> This feature already exists today and not doing this would be to remove a >> feature that is now interesting to have thanks to the replacement of the AS >> by the Notifications UI. >> >>> only to have an equivalent of a feature that we >>> disabled some years ago. >> >> We disabled it for 2 reasons and not for the reasons you mentioned above: >> * Because the dashboard was on the home page and several users were not >> using the message sending UI
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
On 05/31/2018 03:18 PM, Vincent Massol wrote: > Hi Clement, > >> On 31 May 2018, at 14:56, Clément Aubin wrote: > > [snip] > >>> >>> All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post >>> it quickly :) >> >> I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream >> implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the >> notification system to act as a messaging center. >> >> - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with >> multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the notification >> center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations in >> it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which would >> probably fill most of the notification center ? > > This is not supported ATM (see > http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Message%20Stream%20Application/) > so no issue FTM. You can only send messages to a given user, to a group or > to everyone.> > I don’t see a problem to add this feature later on if we need it. I'm here describing my own usage of collaborative platforms or social networks. If it wasn't supported before today, maybe we should think about it, because usually, people with only one friend to talk to are rare. Having multiple conversation is something that we should at least think about. Also, as you mentioned it in the end of your previous mail, "if we do nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year", what makes you think that we'll have the time to improve the feature later on, even if we do need it ? >> - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on the >> same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time to >> time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if >> and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification center >> every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, new >> messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. > > I don’t see this related at all to messaging. You have the same problem for > any kind of notifications. This is related to live notifications and > something generic for the notifications feature. > > I don’t agree with "The messaging feature of the notification is interesting > here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification > center every X seconds”. Again I don’t see why this is related only to > messaging and also I find it more useful to have messaging than nothing > (which is what you propose). I can imagine plenty of use cases where it’s > still useful to have messaging without the auto refresh. I consider auto > refresh to be a nice improvement to have not as a "must have or there’s no > value”. Yes, this is a feature that is also nice to have for all kind of notification, however, this is what I mean by "shipping a half finished feature" : messaging is something done in real time. If you forget to refresh your page, you forget to get new messages. Imagine if you had to refresh a page every time you wanted to see a new message on IRC. >> All in all, I'm very concerned that we try to ship a half finished >> feature that cannot be used for real collaboration and that still takes >> some place in the UI ; > > Maybe there’s a misunderstanding: We’re not trying to develop a messaging > feature. This feature already exists and we’re not touching this. > > All that we’re doing is add the ability to display messages in the > notification UI if some messages are present in the Event Stream table. > > This feature already exists today and not doing this would be to remove a > feature that is now interesting to have thanks to the replacement of the AS > by the Notifications UI. > >> only to have an equivalent of a feature that we >> disabled some years ago. > > We disabled it for 2 reasons and not for the reasons you mentioned above: > * Because the dashboard was on the home page and several users were not using > the message sending UI and didn’t want it to take valuable space on the home > page. This has been solved by moving the dashboard to a different space > * Because you couldn’t know when someone was sending a message to you and it > was hard to check your personal AS (you had to nav to your user profile). Actually, I would be interested to know the other reasons for disabling the Message Stream some time ago. In the original message ([1]), this was the only point mentionned, but maybe Nicolas had more reasons. > Those 2 problems are fixed so there’s no reason to not have it anymore. > >> If we want to promote messaging and more user >> to user interaction in the wiki, maybe we should take more time to spec >> it. If we had to vote for this, I'd say -0 for now. > > Yes and that’s why Caty is going to conduct a more general investigation on > that. > > I understand your POV and I don’t disagree with it in general. However, I > feel that: > * I don’t like
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
Hi Clement, > On 31 May 2018, at 14:56, Clément Aubin wrote: [snip] >> >> All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post >> it quickly :) > > I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream > implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the > notification system to act as a messaging center. > > - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with > multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the notification > center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations in > it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which would > probably fill most of the notification center ? This is not supported ATM (see http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Message%20Stream%20Application/) so no issue FTM. You can only send messages to a given user, to a group or to everyone. I don’t see a problem to add this feature later on if we need it. > - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on the > same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time to > time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if > and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification center > every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, new > messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. I don’t see this related at all to messaging. You have the same problem for any kind of notifications. This is related to live notifications and something generic for the notifications feature. I don’t agree with "The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification center every X seconds”. Again I don’t see why this is related only to messaging and also I find it more useful to have messaging than nothing (which is what you propose). I can imagine plenty of use cases where it’s still useful to have messaging without the auto refresh. I consider auto refresh to be a nice improvement to have not as a "must have or there’s no value”. > All in all, I'm very concerned that we try to ship a half finished > feature that cannot be used for real collaboration and that still takes > some place in the UI ; Maybe there’s a misunderstanding: We’re not trying to develop a messaging feature. This feature already exists and we’re not touching this. All that we’re doing is add the ability to display messages in the notification UI if some messages are present in the Event Stream table. This feature already exists today and not doing this would be to remove a feature that is now interesting to have thanks to the replacement of the AS by the Notifications UI. > only to have an equivalent of a feature that we > disabled some years ago. We disabled it for 2 reasons and not for the reasons you mentioned above: * Because the dashboard was on the home page and several users were not using the message sending UI and didn’t want it to take valuable space on the home page. This has been solved by moving the dashboard to a different space * Because you couldn’t know when someone was sending a message to you and it was hard to check your personal AS (you had to nav to your user profile). Those 2 problems are fixed so there’s no reason to not have it anymore. > If we want to promote messaging and more user > to user interaction in the wiki, maybe we should take more time to spec > it. If we had to vote for this, I'd say -0 for now. Yes and that’s why Caty is going to conduct a more general investigation on that. I understand your POV and I don’t disagree with it in general. However, I feel that: * I don’t like regressing/loosing features * This is an opportunity to have something now. I can tell you that if we do nothing now, nothing will happen for at least 1 year * We’re not redoing the messaging feature, just the display part in the notif UI * I don’t see how there would much changes even if we spend 2 years designing a new messaging center. * It’s not going to cost much (probably 1-2 days of work max). So at worse ,it’ll cost us 1-2 days if we had to redo everything. * Also note that we're not changing the store or anything so even if we redo it completely differently it doesn’t matter and we will not loose anything * This will allow us to gather feedback from the community about needs/improvements * We can never implement a feature in one go. We need to work iteratively. We just need to make sure the architecture is not going to break. Since we’re not touching this part, there’s no real risk So I really believe that it’s more positive than negative to spend this little time to display messages in the notif UI. WDYT? Thanks -Vincent > >> Thanks for you time and have a great day, >> >> Guillaume
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
Hi, On 05/31/2018 11:46 AM, Guillaume Delhumeau wrote: > Notifications application is almost ready to replace the Activity Stream's > UI. The only remaining thing is the display > of the messages from the Message Stream in the Notifications. > > We have made a quick brainstorming with Caty and Vincent, and here is our > conclusions. > > 1/ We think it make sense to display user messages in the notifications > because it is typically what notifications > are made for: pop-up important information concerning what the user cares. > In the past, we decided to disable the > Message Stream by default because messages were lost in the Activity > Stream. But in the case of the notifications, users > can chose what they want to receive so there is less chance to miss > messages in the middle of thousand of events. > > 2/ Like all other types of notification, there should be a button in the > notification settings of each user to decide to > enable or disable these messages in the notifications. It should be enabled > by default. > > 3/ We should add the "send message" gadget in the "alert" menu (via an UIX) > so it's easy to find and to send messages. > > 4/ Provide a form to be able to reply to a personal message. > > 5/ Let the message stream disabled by default. Users who are used to it > will not lose the feature but we don't make it > visible for now until we make some other improvements. > > This is what I am starting to implement right now with the hope it's done > for XWiki 10.5. > > In the future, we should add the following features: > > a/ Having a real "inbox" application (a "Message Center") to handle all > messages. > > b/ Be notified when someone mention you in a content or in a comment > (example: "@vmassol: You may want to read this > page" will trigger a notification to Vincent Massol). > > c/ Handling correcty messages sent to a group if the first implementation > do not handle it (group filtering could be a problem > with SQL). > > Caty, Vincent, please reply if I've forget something. > > All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post > it quickly :) I don't have a good knowledge of the "old" message stream implementation, however, I'm concerned about the ability of the notification system to act as a messaging center. - When working on multiple documents, I might end up talking with multiple people at the same time. What would happen to the notification center ? Would I have a composite event with all of my conversations in it, or one composite notification per user I'm talking with, which would probably fill most of the notification center ? - When being in a wiki, I might end up staying 1, 2 hours or more on the same page, either to edit it or to read it and refer to it from time to time. The messaging feature of the notification is interesting here if and only if we have the ability to auto-refresh the notification center every X seconds / minutes to check for new events or, in this case, new messages. AFAIK, this feature isn't in place for now. All in all, I'm very concerned that we try to ship a half finished feature that cannot be used for real collaboration and that still takes some place in the UI ; only to have an equivalent of a feature that we disabled some years ago. If we want to promote messaging and more user to user interaction in the wiki, maybe we should take more time to spec it. If we had to vote for this, I'd say -0 for now. > Thanks for you time and have a great day, > > Guillaume >
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
Hi Guillaume, > On 31 May 2018, at 11:46, Guillaume Delhumeau > wrote: > > Notifications application is almost ready to replace the Activity Stream's > UI. The only remaining thing is the display > of the messages from the Message Stream in the Notifications. > > We have made a quick brainstorming with Caty and Vincent, and here is our > conclusions. > > 1/ We think it make sense to display user messages in the notifications > because it is typically what notifications > are made for: pop-up important information concerning what the user cares. > In the past, we decided to disable the > Message Stream by default because messages were lost in the Activity > Stream. But in the case of the notifications, users > can chose what they want to receive so there is less chance to miss > messages in the middle of thousand of events. > > 2/ Like all other types of notification, there should be a button in the > notification settings of each user to decide to > enable or disable these messages in the notifications. It should be enabled > by default. > > 3/ We should add the "send message" gadget in the "alert" menu (via an UIX) > so it's easy to find and to send messages. We actually mentioned that this would be for later and that Caty would start an investigation on this. > 4/ Provide a form to be able to reply to a personal message. Same here (for later). > 5/ Let the message stream disabled by default. Users who are used to it > will not lose the feature but we don't make it > visible for now until we make some other improvements. Actually we didn’t talk much about this. But we can decide what we do once the support is back in the notifications UI. > This is what I am starting to implement right now with the hope it's done > for XWiki 10.5. Note that points 3 and 4 are not meant to be implemented now. FTM just displaying the messages in the Notif UI. > In the future, we should add the following features: > > a/ Having a real "inbox" application (a "Message Center") to handle all > messages. We didn’t really discuss this. But this should go in Caty’s investigation. > b/ Be notified when someone mention you in a content or in a comment > (example: "@vmassol: You may want to read this > page" will trigger a notification to Vincent Massol). > > c/ Handling correcty messages sent to a group if the first implementation > do not handle it (group filtering could be a problem > with SQL). Yes we said the first impl will support at least messages sent to a user and to all. Thanks -Vincent > > Caty, Vincent, please reply if I've forget something. > > All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post > it quickly :) > > Thanks for you time and have a great day, > > Guillaume > > -- > Guillaume Delhumeau (guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com) > Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS > Committer on the XWiki.org project
Re: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau < guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com> wrote: > Notifications application is almost ready to replace the Activity Stream's > UI. The only remaining thing is the display > of the messages from the Message Stream in the Notifications. > > We have made a quick brainstorming with Caty and Vincent, and here is our > conclusions. > > 1/ We think it make sense to display user messages in the notifications > because it is typically what notifications > are made for: pop-up important information concerning what the user cares. > In the past, we decided to disable the > Message Stream by default because messages were lost in the Activity > Stream. But in the case of the notifications, users > can chose what they want to receive so there is less chance to miss > messages in the middle of thousand of events. > > 2/ Like all other types of notification, there should be a button in the > notification settings of each user to decide to > enable or disable these messages in the notifications. It should be enabled > by default. > > > 3/ We should add the "send message" gadget in the "alert" menu (via an UIX) > so it's easy to find and to send messages. > I'm not very convinced by this. It will clutter the notification menu. An alternative is to show just an icon/button on the notification menu, that opens a popup (modal) with the form to send message. > > 4/ Provide a form to be able to reply to a personal message. > > 5/ Let the message stream disabled by default. Users who are used to it > will not lose the feature but we don't make it > visible for now until we make some other improvements. > > This is what I am starting to implement right now with the hope it's done > for XWiki 10.5. > > In the future, we should add the following features: > > a/ Having a real "inbox" application (a "Message Center") to handle all > messages. > > b/ Be notified when someone mention you in a content or in a comment > (example: "@vmassol: You may want to read this > page" will trigger a notification to Vincent Massol). > > c/ Handling correcty messages sent to a group if the first implementation > do not handle it (group filtering could be a problem > with SQL). > > Caty, Vincent, please reply if I've forget something. > > All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post > it quickly :) > > Thanks for you time and have a great day, > > Guillaume > > -- > Guillaume Delhumeau (guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com) > Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS > Committer on the XWiki.org project >
[xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Display user messages in the notifications.
Notifications application is almost ready to replace the Activity Stream's UI. The only remaining thing is the display of the messages from the Message Stream in the Notifications. We have made a quick brainstorming with Caty and Vincent, and here is our conclusions. 1/ We think it make sense to display user messages in the notifications because it is typically what notifications are made for: pop-up important information concerning what the user cares. In the past, we decided to disable the Message Stream by default because messages were lost in the Activity Stream. But in the case of the notifications, users can chose what they want to receive so there is less chance to miss messages in the middle of thousand of events. 2/ Like all other types of notification, there should be a button in the notification settings of each user to decide to enable or disable these messages in the notifications. It should be enabled by default. 3/ We should add the "send message" gadget in the "alert" menu (via an UIX) so it's easy to find and to send messages. 4/ Provide a form to be able to reply to a personal message. 5/ Let the message stream disabled by default. Users who are used to it will not lose the feature but we don't make it visible for now until we make some other improvements. This is what I am starting to implement right now with the hope it's done for XWiki 10.5. In the future, we should add the following features: a/ Having a real "inbox" application (a "Message Center") to handle all messages. b/ Be notified when someone mention you in a content or in a comment (example: "@vmassol: You may want to read this page" will trigger a notification to Vincent Massol). c/ Handling correcty messages sent to a group if the first implementation do not handle it (group filtering could be a problem with SQL). Caty, Vincent, please reply if I've forget something. All others: if you have any recommendation or counter argument, please post it quickly :) Thanks for you time and have a great day, Guillaume -- Guillaume Delhumeau (guillaume.delhum...@xwiki.com) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
[xwiki-devs] [XWiki Day] BFD#179
Hello devs, This Thursday is BFD#179: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/XWikiDays#HBugfixingdays I would like to propose that this day to be a quantitative rather than qualitative day in terms of closed issues. There are bugs in older versions of XWiki that do not reproduce nor make sense anymore in the latest versions and make the BFD statistics to be less accurate. We should try to close as many as possible bugs of this kind. Our current status is: * -54 bugs over 120 days (4 months), i.e. we need to close 54 bugs to have created bugs # = closed bugs # * -97 bugs over 365 days (1 year) * -149 bugs over 500 days (between 1 and 2 years) * -316 bugs over 1600 days (4.3 years) See https://jira.xwiki.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa?selectPageId=10352 Here's the BFD#179 dashboard to follow the progress during the day: https://jira.xwiki.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa?selectPageId=14300 Happy Bug Fixing Day, Alex
