Re: [DDN] Terminology its discontents (Re: Third World)
For what it is worth, when a collective term is unavoidable I use high income, low income .. and less often, economies in transition. Most often these seem simply more accurate as the reference isn't really to a state of 'development' or an alternative, and unfortunately too often implied lesser, 'world'. ap On 11/7/05, Dr. Steve Eskow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I know that Third World was chosen by the partisans of those countries themselves, and many continue to favor it, I've been using Third World regularly. I think, however, that Don Osborn is right, and that the term has grown into negativity. ... ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Terminology its discontents (Re: Third World)
Hello all, I find this discussion fascinating as I have spent the bulk of my life under shifting definitions of my race, ethnicity, and economic status (as opposed to class). As a New Yorker of Puerto Rican and West Indian descent (Dominica, not the DR), I started out as Negro which shifted to to Black, which morphed into Black Puerto Rican, which transitioned Afro-Rican, then Nuyorican and now Boriqua. Concurrently Negro went out of fashion while Black gained ascendency, Black changed to African-American and Caribbean-American and everyone else shifted to other hyphenate-American nomenclature. Economically, I was born what we called working class living in the projects striving for middle class, or upper middle class. Those aspirations and distinctions have become far more amorphous as times progress. What I find interesting is how David's description of the vast chasm that has developed in India could easily describe what is devleoping in microcosm in my hometown where the haves, and the have-mores are rapidly displacing not only the the have nots but even some of what were once known as the working and middle class. This pertains to the Digital Divide on a number of levels because education and access are tied together with the amount of $$ in ones life on so many levels. Education is still the key to climbing the economic ladder because you acquire skills and the ability to learn. You also find out about the options that you may be able to avail yourself of and the Internet can turbo-charge you ability to mobilize your resources IF you are well taught and motivated to do so. Paul Mondesire Thirteen/WNET Dave A. Chakrabarti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree, but this often leaves open the question of defining new and appropriate terminologies for what we're trying to express. I'll use India as an example, since I'm very familiar with it (I grew up there, for the latter part of my childhood). India is extremely, ridiculously, industrialized, as a nation. India is also the world's largest democracy. India also sports a middle class with ridiculous amounts of purchasing power and a standard of living that, in many ways, far surpasses that of Western Europe or the US (do middle class Americans have chauffeurs and servants to clean their houses? Indians do, and couldn't live without them...upper middle class Indians rarely interact with the poverty you saw on National Geographic). And this brings me to the catch...India has a yawning chasm between the middle and the lower economic classes. And the lower economic classes comprise a very large percentage of the population. Which, given the size of the population, is a very large number of people indeed. It is easy to lose sight of this population if you are a member of a middle class that is trying to insulate itself as quickly as possible, or lose sight of the development in India if you are focusing on the poverty...but India is both, as much as it is anything. India is, in many ways, a better-than-first-world and a ridiculously-third-world nation at the same time. This dichotomy makes it very difficult to label India, and other nations like India (India is by no means alone) in terms of a category heading. This is the dilemma in finding a vocabulary for thought processes on these nations. Suggestions? D. --- Dave A. Chakrabarti Projects Coordinator CTCNet Chicago [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andrew Pleasant wrote: For what it is worth, when a collective term is unavoidable I use high income, low income .. and less often, economies in transition. Most often these seem simply more accurate as the reference isn't really to a state of 'development' or an alternative, and unfortunately too often implied lesser, 'world'. ap On 11/7/05, Dr. Steve Eskow wrote: Since I know that Third World was chosen by the partisans of those countries themselves, and many continue to favor it, I've been using Third World regularly. I think, however, that Don Osborn is right, and that the term has grown into negativity. ... ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. . ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list
[DDN] Terminology its discontents (Re: Third World)
I wasn't going to get into this one, but will offer that I've stopped using Third World for some time. It's a legacy term, if you will, and it's not surprising that it is still in circulation (and it's better than some other legacy terms in the field, like underdeveloped). I understand its origins - at least in part - were half a century ago in the so-called non-aligned movement of countries professing allegience to neither the West or the Eastern bloc. Since third can also define a ranking, and the countries in the third world were generally among those with lower living standards, it was easy to make the association. Hence in the 70s the emergence of the term fourth world and so on. As for developing, I'm not so comfortable with that either. Although the intent is clear, there is also a real sense in which we all are developing, though obviously some are materially richer or poorer, and some countries have more elaborate and productive infrastructures than others, etc. All terms seem to have their strong and weak points, but the lesson I get from this is that maybe it is a good thing not to rely on such labels too much. Choose words and terms to fit the context, choose well and make the definitions clear. What that means in terms of inconvenience of not having a ready category to put whole countries under, perhaps more than compensates in obliging us to keep analysis appropriate, sharp, and adaptable. Don Osborn Bisharat.net Quoting Linda Ullah [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David, I don't see disagreement as much as the desire to find the best semantic fit. I like the word developing better than most of the other terms. It implies progress and positive energy. In terms of your advise to Beth.. I absolutely agree that it is critical to focus on development and sustainability of resources, She might look to local foundations. We have reasonably successful with this approach. Linda Ullah Teacher in Residence Foothill College Krause Center for Innovation [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.foothill.edu/kci On Nov 5, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Dave A. Chakrabarti wrote: Hi Vasu, Linda, Beth, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Why does Third World imply such negative connotations? It may just be a difference in how we understand the semantics, but I've also used Third World the way a geographer or economist uses it, i.e. to mean developing. Personally, I've often found greater beauty and more humanity in the third world than in more developed nations. I would certainly never use it in a negative sense...my emphasis in meaning has always been developing, perhaps in alternative ways rather than underdeveloped or backwards. Beth: In terms of best practices for running a community technology center, I'd say you should focus on development and sustainability of resources, which in your case will be mostly funding. Don't forget to line up sustainable sources of in-kind donations, such as laptop-repair and consulting, or donated space to work in, etc. I would suggest creating a system where the graduates of your program contribute back to the program, either monetarily or by donating their skills to teach the next generation of students. Similarly, being able to expand so you can retain a percentage of your graduates as instructors / administrative staff would also be a good goal to keep in mind. I'm also strongly in favor of teaching open sourced technologies and philosophies...i.e. Open Office instead of MS Office, etc. I'm of the opinion that the cost of running and maintaining a lab is often much lower using open source tools, even in areas where software is not always paid for anyway...simply because open source architecture can sometimes be more robust, more scalable, and more user-supported. D. -- Dave A. Chakrabarti Project Coordinator CTCNet Chicago [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linda Ullah wrote: Vasu, I absolutely agree with you. Third World really does imply that there are multiple levels of people/countries. There are so many ways that we can use Internet technology to help the children of the world learn to understand and appreciate each other 's cultures. I'm looking for help connecting teachers and students in meaningful ways to help build tolerance and mutual respect for the future generations (as you've so well stated the need). There are many organizations and schools trying to promote projects that do foster tolerance and global understanding Here is what I've tried to do: 1. Global Project-based Learning Web Resource List: http://my-ecoach.com/online/rldevelop.php?rlid=6499action=edit (I'd really appreciate any resources that anyone on this list would be willing to share with me. 2. Global Project-based Learning Online Course (offered though Foothill College for credit, but the course materials are
RE: [DDN] Terminology its discontents (Re: Third World)
Since I know that Third World was chosen by the partisans of those countries themselves, and many continue to favor it, I've been using Third World regularly. I think, however, that Don Osborn is right, and that the term has grown into negativity. Here is a point of view from Meadows, Meadows, and Randers in their BEYOND THE LIMITS: Like everyone, we have trouble with the choice of words to designate different regions of the world. We object to the words developed and developing for reasons that will become evident...The terms 'First,' 'Second,' and 'Third Worlds...[are] rapidly waning in relevance. 'North' and 'South' are geographically inaccurate but value-free designations often used in United Nations documents... But the distinction we think is most accurate for our purposes is between cultures that are 'industrialized' and 'less-industrialized.'... For general use, I think I will try to use North and South., following UN usage. Steve Eskow [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Donald Z. Osborn Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 10:32 PM To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group Subject: [DDN] Terminology its discontents (Re: Third World) I wasn't going to get into this one, but will offer that I've stopped using Third World for some time. It's a legacy term, if you will, and it's not surprising that it is still in circulation (and it's better than some other legacy terms in the field, like underdeveloped). I understand its origins - at least in part - were half a century ago in the so-called non-aligned movement of countries professing allegience to neither the West or the Eastern bloc. Since third can also define a ranking, and the countries in the third world were generally among those with lower living standards, it was easy to make the association. Hence in the 70s the emergence of the term fourth world and so on. As for developing, I'm not so comfortable with that either. Although the intent is clear, there is also a real sense in which we all are developing, though obviously some are materially richer or poorer, and some countries have more elaborate and productive infrastructures than others, etc. All terms seem to have their strong and weak points, but the lesson I get from this is that maybe it is a good thing not to rely on such labels too much. Choose words and terms to fit the context, choose well and make the definitions clear. What that means in terms of inconvenience of not having a ready category to put whole countries under, perhaps more than compensates in obliging us to keep analysis appropriate, sharp, and adaptable. Don Osborn Bisharat.net Quoting Linda Ullah [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David, I don't see disagreement as much as the desire to find the best semantic fit. I like the word developing better than most of the other terms. It implies progress and positive energy. In terms of your advise to Beth.. I absolutely agree that it is critical to focus on development and sustainability of resources, She might look to local foundations. We have reasonably successful with this approach. Linda Ullah Teacher in Residence Foothill College Krause Center for Innovation [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.foothill.edu/kci On Nov 5, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Dave A. Chakrabarti wrote: Hi Vasu, Linda, Beth, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Why does Third World imply such negative connotations? It may just be a difference in how we understand the semantics, but I've also used Third World the way a geographer or economist uses it, i.e. to mean developing. Personally, I've often found greater beauty and more humanity in the third world than in more developed nations. I would certainly never use it in a negative sense...my emphasis in meaning has always been developing, perhaps in alternative ways rather than underdeveloped or backwards. Beth: In terms of best practices for running a community technology center, I'd say you should focus on development and sustainability of resources, which in your case will be mostly funding. Don't forget to line up sustainable sources of in-kind donations, such as laptop-repair and consulting, or donated space to work in, etc. I would suggest creating a system where the graduates of your program contribute back to the program, either monetarily or by donating their skills to teach the next generation of students. Similarly, being able to expand so you can retain a percentage of your graduates as instructors / administrative staff would also be a good goal to keep in mind. I'm also strongly in favor of teaching open sourced technologies and philosophies...i.e. Open Office instead of MS Office, etc. I'm of the opinion that the cost of running and maintaining a lab is often much lower using open source tools, even in areas where software is not always paid for anyway...simply because
