Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Sunday, 29 May 2016 at 11:44:25 UTC, ZombineDev wrote: On Sunday, 29 May 2016 at 11:35:12 UTC, Seb wrote: [...] I like this list better than the current, but with one change: taking LDC out of core and renaming it to LDC and LLVM so other D projects that leverage LLVM can be hosted there (e.g. SDC, Calypso, CPP2D, etc) and to be on par with GDC. Having an additional LLVM category sounds reasonable. So we go with this new structure? Any major objections? It would be nice to be able to move conversations. Instead of "please use > D.learn instead", you would see "moved to more appropriate D.learn". See also: https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/67
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On 5/29/16 7:28 AM, Dicebot wrote: On 05/26/2016 08:07 PM, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 Without moderators to move mismatching topic between groups any more fine grained separation will do more harm than good. Note that this isn't possible with the NG being backed by NNTP. It would be nice to be able to move conversations. Instead of "please use D.learn instead", you would see "moved to more appropriate D.learn". I'd hate to lose my NNTP interface though :) -Steve
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Sunday, 29 May 2016 at 11:35:12 UTC, Seb wrote: On Sunday, 29 May 2016 at 11:28:05 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On 05/26/2016 08:07 PM, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 Without moderators to move mismatching topic between groups any more fine grained separation will do more harm than good. NG in its current form is simply not a good tool for focused technical discussion and won't be. "Get rid of OT" idea sounds like mockery to anyone who doesn't spend his entire lifetime posting here because 90+% of NG posts are absolutely irrelevant. To avoid confusion the proposal is to reduce the number of forums from 14 (currently) to 7. So we are halfing the number and are _not_ introducing more fine grained separation. Instead the idea was rearange the forums to sth. like this: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC - Third-party (Dub universe) I like this list better than the current, but with one change: taking LDC out of core and renaming it to LDC and LLVM so other D projects that leverage LLVM can be hosted there (e.g. SDC, Calypso, CPP2D, etc) and to be on par with GDC.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Sunday, 29 May 2016 at 11:28:05 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On 05/26/2016 08:07 PM, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 Without moderators to move mismatching topic between groups any more fine grained separation will do more harm than good. NG in its current form is simply not a good tool for focused technical discussion and won't be. "Get rid of OT" idea sounds like mockery to anyone who doesn't spend his entire lifetime posting here because 90+% of NG posts are absolutely irrelevant. To avoid confusion the proposal is to reduce the number of forums from 14 (currently) to 7. So we are halfing the number and are _not_ introducing more fine grained separation. Instead the idea was rearange the forums to sth. like this: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC - Third-party (Dub universe)
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On 05/26/2016 08:07 PM, Seb wrote: > I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and > according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, > however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other > category proposals. > > Proposed categories: > > - DMD > - DRuntime > - Phobos > - Language design (or Idea pool) > - D Foundation + resources > - Events > - Other (formerly known as General) > > I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them > anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. > > https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 Without moderators to move mismatching topic between groups any more fine grained separation will do more harm than good. NG in its current form is simply not a good tool for focused technical discussion and won't be. "Get rid of OT" idea sounds like mockery to anyone who doesn't spend his entire lifetime posting here because 90+% of NG posts are absolutely irrelevant.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Friday, 27 May 2016 at 09:47:08 UTC, Johan Engelen wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:45:56 UTC, Seb wrote: 1) Afaik the LDC community moved over to Gitter/Github for most of their communication and I guess for them just Annouce or Develop would be fine. I think the LDC forum has its purpose, and I do not want it gone! Traffic is low, but that's just fine. Not everybody is on Gitter, and Gitter is only used for quick non-semi-permanent discussion. Without the forum, you would have to create a Github issue to discuss something even if it is not really an issue that needs resolving, only members of the LDC github group would see it, etc. The idea is to merge ldc threads into Core. You could use a [LDC] label in the topic to differentiate ldc-specific posts, and since there's not much traffic in the dedicated ldc forum, it wouldn't add too much to Core. It might even give ldc greater visibility by the core team. I think gdc should do the same, but they have some automated bot that cross-posts comments from their bugzilla, so they may want to keep their own forum if they want to keep doing that.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On 5/27/16 5:10 AM, ixid wrote: That's far too many categories Yes, we should add exactly one. -- Andrei
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:45:56 UTC, Seb wrote: 1) Afaik the LDC community moved over to Gitter/Github for most of their communication and I guess for them just Annouce or Develop would be fine. I think the LDC forum has its purpose, and I do not want it gone! Traffic is low, but that's just fine. Not everybody is on Gitter, and Gitter is only used for quick non-semi-permanent discussion. Without the forum, you would have to create a Github issue to discuss something even if it is not really an issue that needs resolving, only members of the LDC github group would see it, etc. -Johan
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Friday, 27 May 2016 at 09:10:08 UTC, ixid wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 That's far too many categories, it would be better to have General and Technical at this stage. The current idea (based on all the feedback) was to consolidate the current categories into roughly something like this: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC - Third-party (Dub universe)
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 That's far too many categories, it would be better to have General and Technical at this stage.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Friday, 27 May 2016 at 06:07:36 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Friday, 27 May 2016 at 00:21:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: I would like to see a forum for third-party libraries. I had a forum for Derelict at DSource until the site died, then maintained one at Lunarpages until it got hacked. I'm not eager to put one up on the VPS where I have my blogs now. The result is that questions about Derelict (and other projects with no official forums) pop up in General now and again (or, worse, on the issues page at GitHub). A dedicated forum for forum-less projects would be nice. Good idea, it'd be a good place for people to ask about dub packages and other third-party libraries, now that dub is going to ship with dmd. +1 And dub shipping with DMD can't happen soon enough.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Friday, 27 May 2016 at 00:21:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 23:13:10 UTC, Seb wrote: So yet another summary: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC I would like to see a forum for third-party libraries. I had a forum for Derelict at DSource until the site died, then maintained one at Lunarpages until it got hacked. I'm not eager to put one up on the VPS where I have my blogs now. The result is that questions about Derelict (and other projects with no official forums) pop up in General now and again (or, worse, on the issues page at GitHub). A dedicated forum for forum-less projects would be nice. Good idea, it'd be a good place for people to ask about dub packages and other third-party libraries, now that dub is going to ship with dmd.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 23:13:10 UTC, Seb wrote: So yet another summary: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC I would like to see a forum for third-party libraries. I had a forum for Derelict at DSource until the site died, then maintained one at Lunarpages until it got hacked. I'm not eager to put one up on the VPS where I have my blogs now. The result is that questions about Derelict (and other projects with no official forums) pop up in General now and again (or, worse, on the issues page at GitHub). A dedicated forum for forum-less projects would be nice.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 23:03:46 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:45:56 UTC, Seb wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:17:18 UTC, jmh530 wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 20:27:25 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: [...] I suggest renaming Learn to be Learn/Help. Wow your feedback is great so far! I am glad to see that we can have a good on-topic conversation :) So to summarize all comments so far, how about this new structure: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Announce Development: - Develop (dmd, druntime, phobos, dlang.org, ...) - Language design - LDC - GDC 1) Afaik the LDC community moved over to Gitter/Github for most of their communication and I guess for them just Annouce or Develop would be fine. The ldc forum is used but low enough traffic that it could probably be merged in Develop. 2) Is Language design unique enough to be an own list? No, I don't think so. 3) "Development / Develop" is a bit strange - better ideas? Core? Language and standard library development. +1 Should we dump the top-level categories? They tell people what to expect, makes sense for that. 4) If automated bot lists should continue to exist, the should be apropriately marked Get rid of them, I'm sure github has feeds they can subscribe to instead. Of course - and a lot more features ;-) https://github.com/dlang/dmd/commits/master.atom https://github.com/dlang/dmd/releases.atom https://developer.github.com/v3/activity/feeds/ So yet another summary: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Annouce (Official annoucements) - Broadcast Development: - Core (Language and standard library development) - GDC
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:45:56 UTC, Seb wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:17:18 UTC, jmh530 wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 20:27:25 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: It may be that we want to create another list or two for some specific stuff, but trying to split stuff across a bunch of groups is going to cause its own problems. We already have enough issues with folks posting in the wrong group as it is (e.g. Learn questions keep ending up in the main newsgroup). I suggest renaming Learn to be Learn/Help. Wow your feedback is great so far! I am glad to see that we can have a good on-topic conversation :) So to summarize all comments so far, how about this new structure: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Announce Development: - Develop (dmd, druntime, phobos, dlang.org, ...) - Language design - LDC - GDC 1) Afaik the LDC community moved over to Gitter/Github for most of their communication and I guess for them just Annouce or Develop would be fine. The ldc forum is used but low enough traffic that it could probably be merged in Develop. 2) Is Language design unique enough to be an own list? No, I don't think so. 3) "Development / Develop" is a bit strange - better ideas? Core? Language and standard library development. Should we dump the top-level categories? They tell people what to expect, makes sense for that. 4) If automated bot lists should continue to exist, the should be apropriately marked Get rid of them, I'm sure github has feeds they can subscribe to instead.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:51:51 UTC, qznc wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. How about a "Show Off" category, which is something like a "lesser Announce"? When I submitted my first project to the dub repo, I would have liked to show it to some people. However, it is not important enough for Announce. It does not really fit Learn either. Some stuff from Announce should probably go there. It would probably not help to reduce traffic in General. How about "Broadcast" instead of "Show off"? And rename Announce to "Official announce", s.t. it's clear that annouce is really low-traffic and can be used for outsiders that just want to be regularily pinged for important stuff (dconf registration, new release, ...). (Btw another idea of is to help & guide people how to promote their project. See this issue for details: https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/69)
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. How about a "Show Off" category, which is something like a "lesser Announce"? When I submitted my first project to the dub repo, I would have liked to show it to some people. However, it is not important enough for Announce. It does not really fit Learn either. Some stuff from Announce should probably go there. It would probably not help to reduce traffic in General.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 21:17:18 UTC, jmh530 wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 20:27:25 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: It may be that we want to create another list or two for some specific stuff, but trying to split stuff across a bunch of groups is going to cause its own problems. We already have enough issues with folks posting in the wrong group as it is (e.g. Learn questions keep ending up in the main newsgroup). I suggest renaming Learn to be Learn/Help. Wow your feedback is great so far! I am glad to see that we can have a good on-topic conversation :) So to summarize all comments so far, how about this new structure: New users: - Learn / Help Community: - General - Announce Development: - Develop (dmd, druntime, phobos, dlang.org, ...) - Language design - LDC - GDC 1) Afaik the LDC community moved over to Gitter/Github for most of their communication and I guess for them just Annouce or Develop would be fine. 2) Is Language design unique enough to be an own list? 3) "Development / Develop" is a bit strange - better ideas? Should we dump the top-level categories? 4) If automated bot lists should continue to exist, the should be apropriately marked
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 20:27:25 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: It may be that we want to create another list or two for some specific stuff, but trying to split stuff across a bunch of groups is going to cause its own problems. We already have enough issues with folks posting in the wrong group as it is (e.g. Learn questions keep ending up in the main newsgroup). I suggest renaming Learn to be Learn/Help.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, May 26, 2016 17:07:54 Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: > I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and > according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval > issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no > OT! Only other category proposals. > > Proposed categories: > > - DMD > - DRuntime > - Phobos > - Language design (or Idea pool) > - D Foundation + resources > - Events > - Other (formerly known as General) > > I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to > adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or > too silent. > > https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 It may be that we want to create another list or two for some specific stuff, but trying to split stuff across a bunch of groups is going to cause its own problems. We already have enough issues with folks posting in the wrong group as it is (e.g. Learn questions keep ending up in the main newsgroup). And any time that you have a thread with cross-cutting concerns, you have problems, and they're only going to get worse the more lists there are. I'm honestly inclined to argue that the problem is not so much that we need more lists so much as we simply have too much OT chatter going on lately (which is not a problem that we've had on anywhere near this level in the past). So, while we may need another group or two for some specific stuff, I don't think that we should be in a rush to split up the main newsgroup. As it is, the Phobos list basically died off, because things that were being discussed there needed to be discussed more widely. A bunch of specialized lists risks having little to no traffic for what gets posted there. We've seen that in the past. Heck, just a few months ago, the dlang-study group basically died shortly after it was created. Nothing has been posted there in months. If we create a new list, it needs to be for a specific purpose that is either really isn't appropriate for general discussion, because it needs to be separated out so that folks can have a low traffic to find it in (like is the case with Announce), or because it's a topic with a lot of traffic in its own right which makes sense separate from the main list. And very little is going to match those criteria. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 19:32:31 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote: On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 19:12:44 UTC, Joakim wrote: Or we could just go by topic and not bother with separate forums too, as it has largely failed so far. The General/Learn split is working pretty well. It works because people who ask learning questions in General get told to post to Learn the next time. If we (including Walter and Andrei) would do that with development stuff, it would work. Oh, I agree, I was only talking about how to split General. I think the only way it works is with a few broadly defined forums, as you said, not with many smaller ones. I think it's high time many of the smaller ones were consolidated: there really need to be separate IDEs and debuggers forums? There were eight threads with any posts this month in those two forums combined.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 19:12:44 UTC, Joakim wrote: Or we could just go by topic and not bother with separate forums too, as it has largely failed so far. The General/Learn split is working pretty well. It works because people who ask learning questions in General get told to post to Learn the next time. If we (including Walter and Andrei) would do that with development stuff, it would work.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 18:38:30 UTC, Seb wrote: I proposed two weeks ago to turn off the bot, but it seems some people like it. Most projects I can think of have separate *-commits lists for automated spam like that. -Wyatt
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 18:38:30 UTC, Seb wrote: I proposed two weeks ago to turn off the bot, but it seems some people like it. Yet the DMD group doesn't get them anymore, and no one is complaining (loud enough). Github is already high-traffic, so I expect if we have a mailing list it to be similar, so the seperation into groups make sense. GitHub traffic is going to stay on GitHub. The dev group(s) are only going to get what's currently ending up in General. [...] So incorporating your feedback it would be: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Official tools and resources (dlang.org, download, ...) - Language design (or Idea pool) - Other (formerly known as General) or turning off the bot instead for the first three categories (preferred solution). More like: - Development (about everything under github.com/dlang, replacing the DMD, Druntime, and Phobos groups) - Language Design - General Though I wouldn't mind separate groups for the github.com/dlang stuff. I just don't think they're exactly necessary. But I do think that the GitHub thing needs to be turned off if we want to use the groups for discussion. I prefer "General" over "Other", because 1) that's what it's called now. Less disruption is better. And 2) "Other" sounds like it's for borderline off-topic stuff, which the group isn't.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. I disagree. You don't have to read every thread, I certainly don't. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos Those forums already exist and get no traffic now, other than automated notices. - Language design (or Idea pool) I guess you could combine all four of these into a Development forum and see what happens? For example, Andrei's RCStr thread would probably go there. - D Foundation + resources Sure? - Events Announce, which btw people routinely have to be told about in General. - Other (formerly known as General) Bad idea, the name General is actually a good catch-all, which is why it's the most trafficked. Whatever scheme is chosen, what's most important is that the core team actually uses it that way. The fact that threads like RCStr and the one about floating point are regularly posted in General by the language architects and not in the existing dmd/phobos forums tells everyone else those forums are a joke. Of course, maybe they're just being pragmatic, because General gets the most eyeballs. But that doesn't seem to imply they see a problem with everything being in General. I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66 Or we could just go by topic and not bother with separate forums too, as it has largely failed so far.
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:45:59 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote: On 05/26/2016 07:07 PM, Seb wrote: Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos Already there, but not used a lot. Druntime and Phobos are just being spammed by GitHub. I suggest combining the three into one Development group that also covers dlang.org, official tools, etc. Switch the GitHub thing off, and tell people to use it instead of General for everything that touches on code in the dlang repositories. I proposed two weeks ago to turn off the bot, but it seems some people like it. Github is already high-traffic, so I expect if we have a mailing list it to be similar, so the seperation into groups make sense. Enforcing the use of that group (or the three that are there already) would reduce the traffic in General by a good amount. That's exactly the idea! - Language design (or Idea pool) Sure. - D Foundation + resources Does the foundation really need its own channel, yet? I don't see many threads about it. Let's hope it will, but you are right not for the moment :/ What does "resources" mean? What you put under Development (dlang.org, downloads, etc.) I think this can stay in General/Other for now. - Events What would be posted there? Announcements of events should go in Announce. I think this can stay in General/Other, too. Convinced. - Other (formerly known as General) So incorporating your feedback it would be: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Official tools and resources (dlang.org, download, ...) - Language design (or Idea pool) - Other (formerly known as General) or turning off the bot instead for the first three categories (preferred solution).
Re: Split general into multiple threads
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 at 17:07:54 UTC, Seb wrote: Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I would worry about splitting it in to too many categories. There are already are DMD DRuntime and Phobos categories. Study is kind of like Language design, but maybe a more formal version of it. I feel like Events already tend to go in Announce and don't see a reason to duplicate it.
Split general into multiple threads
I think we all agree that general is having to much traffic and according to CyberShadow [1] this again is just an approval issue, however I expect this a bit controversial, so please no OT! Only other category proposals. Proposed categories: - DMD - DRuntime - Phobos - Language design (or Idea pool) - D Foundation + resources - Events - Other (formerly known as General) I want to stress that whatever categories we pick, we have to adapt them anyways if we realize that something is noisy again or too silent. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/66
