Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Walter Bright wrote: Is this a good idea? Definitely it is a good idea, as I do not do any D1 development for years. I use D2 exclusively...
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
BCS wrote: Hello BLS, (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use. 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... ) The only surprise there (if any) is OCAML. *Everyone* uses C and, last I heard, Ada is still the #1 choice for Bugs==DeadBodiesOrWorse development. From what I've heard, it's actually a darn nice language to work in if you are going to be doing all the engineering process stuff anyway. Hello BCS :) http://www.astree.ens.fr/ This is something Walter definitely should read too. What's the story : ASTRÉE is written in Objective Caml and is about 44000 lines long (plus external libraries). We needed a language with good performance (speed and memory usage) on reasonable equipment, easy support for advanced data structures, and type and memory safety. OCaml also allows for modular, clear and compact source code and makes it easy to work with recursive structures such as syntax trees Björn
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Georg Wrede wrote: It'd be nice if some of them came to this NG. will meet one of the leading guys this summer, let's see. (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-) So you better fly with Boeing ! ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of run-time errors in critical embedded software. It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340 and 380 airplanes. ASTREE is written in OCAML. // http://www.astree.ens.fr/ Björn
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Hello BLS, Georg Wrede wrote: (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-) So you better fly with Boeing ! ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of run-time errors in critical embedded software. It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340 and 380 airplanes. ASTREE is written in OCAML. // http://www.astree.ens.fr/ If you can *prove* it's correct, I don't care if it's in BF I'll fly on it over something you can't. OTOH I /think/ Ada programs can be written so they won't compile if they can't be proven to be correct, at some level.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
BLS wrote: Georg Wrede wrote: It'd be nice if some of them came to this NG. will meet one of the leading guys this summer, let's see. Excellent!! (FWIW, I'd sure prefer to fly with ADA or D, than with C.) :-) So you better fly with Boeing ! LOL ASTREE is a static analyzer for C programs that proves the absence of run-time errors in critical embedded software. It has been applied to the flight control software of the Airbus 340 and 380 airplanes. ASTREE is written in OCAML. // http://www.astree.ens.fr/ Yeah. In the old days there was an entire industry selling lint programs for C coders, and some of them cost more than a mid-size car. Then came C++, and the number of code lines written (in several languages) for the sole purpose of checking that the C++ program even remotely tries to do what it's supposed to, is simply disgusting. A programming language should make it possible to write code where the immediate purpose is clearly visible at a glance. I believe D is such a language. A professional programmer who /wants/ to code clearly, can do it. But with C++, I really don't think so.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Lutger wrote: Rename .learn to .programming and .d to .design or .future. And while we're at it: merge .dwt .gnu .ide .debugger into .tools or .toolchain or something like that. That way you end up with even less newsgroups! A good idea.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Wed, 13 May 2009 20:24:29 +0400, Georg Wrede georg.wr...@iki.fi wrote: (More pipe dreaming: to have a non-profit organisation that maintains a proper web site for D with paid staff (equals proper management), makes some industrial level documentation, and takes care of promoting D in various industries.) I believe it is a must these days.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
No. If we had D and D2, then we'll need D3 (and D4). And we don't need both a D([1]) and a D.learn newsgroup. Not enough volume three groups. We need _D.programming_ and _D.future_, that's all. Once they're up, we post into d.learn that please post in D.programming instead, and in D that post in D.future instead. The whole point of this name change is to steer people into *D.programming* by default. That means /anybody/ who approaches our news for the first time. D.programming should contain both newbie questions, and general talk about the Current D version (i.e. D1 for now, and once D2 is out, D1 and D2 together). People who don't fancy themselves as language development guys, should get scared enough of the name D.future that they approach with caution. And that's all we need. If they peek in, and are comfortable with hairy stuff, and want to contribute, then just jump in, of course. - For this to serve the purpose we intend, D1 should be more prominent on the digitalmars web site, too. It is the Current Version, after all! D2 is only alpha, and not intended for use by others than the D language developers.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Jarrett Billingsley, el 12 de mayo a las 01:01 me escribiste: On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Is this a good idea? My gut reaction is 'yes'. But what would be left on .D without the hundred-post threads about ranges? There really _isn't_ that much conversation about D1, and most of it probably belongs on .D.learn anyway. That's why I think D.learn should be named D.users and D should be named D.devel. D.learn seems to be a newbie group and D seems to be an expert group. Since there is no develpment in the D1 side, there would be no much D1 talking in D.devel (as it is now), except for some bug report discussion or something. -- Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/ GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
What about D.programming and D.compilers Then all programming questions goes to D.programming and D.compilers could be the goto group for discussion on compiler design. Close D.learn and D.gnu. I agree the D.learn sounds like it is for newbies. And I think that all the compilers could benefit form a shared discussion. Robert Clipsham wrote: Walter Bright wrote: Is this a good idea? Yes, but maybe not .D and .D2. I think a separate news group for the huge threads about the future of D/D2 would be good, but there still needs to be a general newsgroup for general discussion - some discussions aren't specific to either or would be best left open. I like the idea of D.future as others have suggested. -- Knud Sørensen Programmer for hire.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Is this a good idea? I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at D4! vote +1 !
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote: I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at D4! I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means that that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result. The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm reluctant to mess with success.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote: I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at D4! I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means that that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result. The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm reluctant to mess with success. It's a good point... I still don't think it's a bad idea, but I can see your reason to be reluctant perfectly well. However, why propose it if you don't like the idea in the first place ?
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Walter Bright wrote: Is this a good idea? No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Björn
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote: However, why propose it if you don't like the idea in the first place ? I changed my mind.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
BLS wrote: No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Walter Bright wrote: Tomas Lindquist Olsen wrote: I think it's a great idea, there's some decent arguments that they should have more general names, but I like the idea that you'd always know which group to look in for specific issues, even when we're at D4! I do have reservations about the idea, based on experience with all the Digital Mars C++ newsgroups. There are too many, making for rather thin traffic. It's tedious to check them all for new postings, which means that that doesn't happen, and new postings often languish as a result. The main D n.g. gets a lot of action, which feeds on itself. I'm reluctant to mess with success. Similar to what Knud Soerensen suggested: Rename .learn to .programming and .d to .design or .future. And while we're at it: merge .dwt .gnu .ide .debugger into .tools or .toolchain or something like that. That way you end up with even less newsgroups!
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:05 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter Bright wrote: BLS wrote: No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines. I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well. I'm not used to Boost groups, so who is expected to post to -users? Are they users of D (that is, application developers)? Who posts to -developers? Are they the people developing D itself or application/tool/library developers (otherwise known as users of D)? -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia skype: derek.j.parnell
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter Bright wrote: BLS wrote: No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines. Beer or ... :) I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well. Andrei May be I am wrong, but the Boost respective CPP community is atm not comparable to the D community. I mean let's wait a while. F.I. I am in contact with airbus industries since 2.5 years and I can assure you they have an eye on D. (I think it is not really top secret to tell you that 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA are in use... so far) Björn
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter Bright wrote: BLS wrote: No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines. you mean Beer or ... :) I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well. Andrei May be I am wrong, but the Boost respective CPP community is atm not comparable to the D community. I mean let's wait a while. F.I. I am in contact with airbus industries since 2.5 years and I can assure you they have an eye on D. (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use. 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... ) Björn
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Hello BLS, (I think it is not really top secret to talk about what is in use. 1) OCAML, 2) C and 3) ADA ... ) The only surprise there (if any) is OCAML. *Everyone* uses C and, last I heard, Ada is still the #1 choice for Bugs==DeadBodiesOrWorse development. From what I've heard, it's actually a darn nice language to work in if you are going to be doing all the engineering process stuff anyway.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Derek Parnell wrote: On Tue, 12 May 2009 15:59:05 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Walter Bright wrote: BLS wrote: No, promoting D also means having a couple of newsgroup entries each day. Otherwise you'll have several 10 entries a month D newsgroups and this imo not very appealing to new visitors. In other words, Bier erm, quantity rulez. Yeah, I had second thoughts along those same lines. I think -users and -developers should work. It works for Boost very well. I'm not used to Boost groups, so who is expected to post to -users? Are they users of D (that is, application developers)? Who posts to -developers? Are they the people developing D itself or application/tool/library developers (otherwise known as users of D)? Those who use Boost hang out in the users group. Those who are interested in the implementation of Boost hang out in the devel group, whether or not they have written a Boost library. Andrei
Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Is this a good idea?
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Walter Bright wrote: Is this a good idea? Yes. Although, D.current and D.next or something along those lines, seems to me better than D1 and D2 (there is reason to believe there will be a D3 in the future). -- Simen
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote in message news:guafob$1uq...@digitalmars.com... Is this a good idea? I don't think so. Not all discussion is specific to D1 or D2.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Mon, 11 May 2009 17:26:54 -0700, Walter Bright wrote: Is this a good idea? Leave digitalmars.D as it is and just add digitalmars.D.future I suppose you could also add digitalmars.D.v1 for discussion just about that edition of D. -- Derek Parnell Melbourne, Australia skype: derek.j.parnell
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Mon, 11 May 2009 20:43:27 -0400, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote in message news:guafob$1uq...@digitalmars.com... Is this a good idea? I don't think so. Not all discussion is specific to D1 or D2. I looks to me that Walter is thinking of having everything specific to D2 be moved and that related to D1 or both stay in digitalmars.D With that in mind, D.beta or something might be better. But I don't know if this is the answer. The discussions about D2 that are hundreds of posts would get their own section. This would give a clearer idea what discussions relate to D1, but would that show the real state of D1 activity? Would this categorization be beneficial to readers? I personally don't see a problem with it, but don't know if it is a solution.
Re: Split digitalmars.D newsgroup into .D and .D2 newsgroups?
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Is this a good idea? My gut reaction is 'yes'. But what would be left on .D without the hundred-post threads about ranges? There really _isn't_ that much conversation about D1, and most of it probably belongs on .D.learn anyway. Somewhat offtopic: I get the impression, from using the D IRC channels, that a lot of newcomers are far more influenced into reading about and using D2 by the Digital Mars site than by how the newsgroups are divided. The site guides you right into the D2 spec and compiler without ever really explaining that D2 is in beta, or that there are practically no libraries for it, or that virtually everyone who is using D for production code is using D1. You get to the D site; what do you do? Click overview, naturally. You read through that, and every one of the links is into the D2 spec. The D 1.0 link at the top left has also disappeared. And of course, since bigger numbers *must* be better, D1 is probably old and unsupported, right! Maybe there should be a foyer page which explains the purpose, status, and future plans for both D1 and D2 (like I think it was Derek who said, nowhere on the DM site is it mentioned that D1 is still supported!). Then and only then should visitors have the opportunity to see the rest of the appropriate spec.
