[digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? Letter to FCC
I have compiled a letter to Laura Smith Esq, at the FCC, with details of this mode. I will let you all know when I receive a reply. Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? Letter to FCC
Excellent idea to ask FCC for an opinion. Dave K3DCW referred to Part 97, but the section he quoted really only describes emission mode designation codes for SS, and does not technically describe how FCC defines SS. It's almost as if Part 97 assumes the definition is so well known that it's not necessary to define it. Problem is, for many years, SS really did operate over a very large bandwidth, much wider than 2.5 kHz. It was thought use of that form of SS had the potential of interfering with many narrowband users. That was not necessarly true, of course. But now we are seeing modes that are much narrower band. I would be good if FCC responds to your letter with their technical description of SS. It's possible they will say that if you modulate tones within 500 hz using frequency hopping SS techniques, then that is SS. It's also possible they would agree that a transmission less than 2.5 kHz wide does not qualify as SS, even though the modulation technique use SS methods. But right now, I think that since Part 97 does not appear to define what SS is, it is not possible to definitively say whether ROS is legal or not legal in FCC jurisdictions. Asking FCC for an opinion is a great idea. Jim - K6JM This is from Dave K3DCW's comment: The closest you get to a true definition in Part 97 is in section 97.3 Definitions, Para C, line 8: (8) SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. - Original Message - From: Andy obrien To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:41 AM Subject: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? Letter to FCC I have compiled a letter to Laura Smith Esq, at the FCC, with details of this mode. I will let you all know when I receive a reply. Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? Letter to FCC
On 02/21/2010 11:31 AM, J. Moen wrote: But right now, I think that since Part 97 does not appear to define what SS is, it is not possible to definitively say whether ROS is legal or not legal in FCC jurisdictions. Asking FCC for an opinion is a great idea. Of course, there is always the danger that the FCC might accidentally make currently used modes like Olivia illegal, depending on how the question was phrased :) -- All rights reversed.
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
m5...@blueyonder.co.uk hello all. can someone tell me where i go to download this ros. many thanks 73 ivor/m5ply - Original Message - From: Andy obrien To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? The description says it uses spread-spectrun On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Dave Ackrill dave.g0...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Andy obrien wrote: Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Why would it not be Andy? I
RE: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
can someone tell me where i go to download this ros. many thanks 73 ivor/m5ply http://rosmodem.wordpress.com http://rosmodem.wordpress.com/ 73 - Giedrius, LY2CG m5...@blueyonder.co.uk hello all. can someone tell me where i go to download this ros. many thanks 73 ivor/m5ply - Original Message - From: Andy obrien mailto:k3uka...@gmail.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? The description says it uses spread-spectrun On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Dave Ackrill dave.g0...@tiscali. mailto:dave.g0...@tiscali.co.uk co.uk wrote: Andy obrien wrote: Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Why would it not be Andy? I
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzY3MjhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4NzExODMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYzMTA4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNjY1OTc1MzA-?o=6Joe, N8FQ... http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/d-305.html Describes Spread Spectrum as not permitted on HF. Is there another part of part 97 I am missing ? Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Andy obrien wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzY3MjhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4NzExODMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYzMTA4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNjY1OTc1MzA-?o=6Joe, N8FQ... http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/d-305.html Describes Spread Spectrum as not permitted on HF. Is there another part of part 97 I am missing ? Andy K3UK I'd actually say that the term 'spread spectrum' is actually incorrect as far as RIO is concerned. It's actually no more 'spread' than some of the other digi-modes and less 'spread' than some versions of Olivia. I think real 'spread spectrum' uses many different bands, selecting the best band/bands and width set-up and has a much wider 'bandwidth' than RIO does. Does anyone have a definition of real spread spectrum? As I hate to think what will happen when/if people with even less knowledge than I have of what 'real' spread spectrum is get the idea that RIO is something that it is actually not and start their inevitable campaign of 'It's illegal, it's immoral and it makes you fat', to use the words of the song... Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Dave Ackrill wrote: I'd actually say that the term 'spread spectrum' is actually incorrect as far as RIO is concerned. It's actually no more 'spread' than some of the other digi-modes and less 'spread' than some versions of Olivia. Sorry, I meant ROS of course. Mark it down as my senior moment for today. ;-) Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Unfortunately, the ROS explanation of Spread Spectrum and Frequency Hopping in the documentation too closely resembles the definition of Spread Spectrum as written in the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum. Since ROS claims to be Frequency Hopping and Spread Spectrum by its own documentation, it is, no matter what you want to call it. The FCC recently clarified what a repeater is because a group insisted that any time delay meant it was not actually repeating, but their argument lost. There is good reason to want the FCC to allow ROS to be used in the automatic subbands, but that will take time and a petition. Looks like a good mode! 73 - Skip KH6TY Dave Ackrill wrote: Andy obrien wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzY3MjhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4NzExODMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYzMTA4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNjY1OTc1MzA-?o=6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzY3MjhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4NzExODMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYzMTA4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNjY1OTc1MzA-?o=6Joe, N8FQ... http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/d-305.html http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/d-305.html Describes Spread Spectrum as not permitted on HF. Is there another part of part 97 I am missing ? Andy K3UK I'd actually say that the term 'spread spectrum' is actually incorrect as far as RIO is concerned. It's actually no more 'spread' than some of the other digi-modes and less 'spread' than some versions of Olivia. I think real 'spread spectrum' uses many different bands, selecting the best band/bands and width set-up and has a much wider 'bandwidth' than RIO does. Does anyone have a definition of real spread spectrum? As I hate to think what will happen when/if people with even less knowledge than I have of what 'real' spread spectrum is get the idea that RIO is something that it is actually not and start their inevitable campaign of 'It's illegal, it's immoral and it makes you fat', to use the words of the song... Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Thanks Skip, I agree after doing some more reading and I will not use this mode on HF. Your UHF idea sounds good. Andy K3Uk On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:32 PM, KH6TY kh...@comcast.net wrote: Unfortunately, the ROS explanation of Spread Spectrum and Frequency Hopping in the documentation too closely resembles the definition of Spread Spectrum as written in the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum. Since ROS claims to be Frequency Hopping and Spread Spectrum by its own documentation, it is, no matter what you want to call it. The FCC recently clarified what a repeater is because a group insisted that any time delay meant it was not actually repeating, but their argument lost. There is good reason to want the FCC to allow ROS to be used in the automatic subbands, but that will take time and a petition. Looks like a good mode! 73 - Skip KH6TY
[digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Andy K3Uk
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Andy obrien wrote: Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Why would it not be Andy? If it is Audio Phase Shift Keying then it's no different to PSK31, if it is more like WSJT then as long as JT65A (and all the other WSJT modes) are legal, then what makes this one any different? I know there's a debate in the USA about MCW, but ROS strikes me, at first viewing, as probably being PSK, or at least AFSK, and just as legal as all the PSK, AFSK type modes and RTTY using an audio soundcard system. I wonder if anyone asked if FSK RTTY was legal when the first RTTY terminal units were used with Amateur radios with FSK terminals provided, in the USA? ;-) Here in the UK some people tried to say that Packet (AX:25) was a 'code or cypher' which, at that time, was proscribed by the UK Amateur Licence. However, in the end, common sense prevailed and we were allowed to use Packet, and no rules were changed to allow that to happen... To go off topic a bit, in commerce companies look at the law and say what does this allow us to do, because it is not actually described as illegal, where as, in Amateur Radio, the mind set seems to be what can I say is illegal, because I don't like it personally and then other Radio Amateurs look at the rules to try and decide what they don't say is permissible and their immediate reaction is to ask some authority, which could probably care less, to make a ruling when, in fact, it's all a moot point and actually probably completely legal and harmless. Unless you are one of the people who have decided, on no authority except their own, that you don't like it and it should be 'banned' forthwith, who cares? Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
The description says it uses spread-spectrun On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Dave Ackrill dave.g0...@tiscali.co.ukwrote: Andy obrien wrote: Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Why would it not be Andy? I
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
As long as it is 500 Hz and 300 baud, it's fine. -Joe, N8FQ On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:04:29 -0500 Andy obrien k3uka...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know if this mode is legal in the USA. ? Andy K3Uk
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
Andy obrien wrote: The description says it uses spread-spectrun How wide is 'wide'? Not got to grips with this as yet, obviously. Dave (G0DJA)
Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA?
While frequency-hopping was first introduced in a patent filed by Nikola Tesla in 19000, I've always been fascinated by the role of Austrian actress Hedy Lamarr in the development of spread-spectrum. According to Wikipedia, Lamarr had learned about the problem at defense meetings she had attended with her former husband Friedrich Mandl, who was an Austrian arms manufacturer. The Antheil-Lamarr version of frequency hopping used a piano-roll to change among 88 frequencies, and was intended to make radio-guided torpedoes harder for enemies to detect or to jam. The patent came to light during patent searches in the 1950s when ITT Corporation and other private firms began to develop Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), a civilian form of spread spectrum. The Antheil-Lamarr patent was granted in 1942. http://www.women-inventors.com/Hedy-Lammar.asp Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Andy obrien To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] ROS, legal in USA? The description says it uses spread-spectrun On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Dave Ackrill dave.g0...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
