Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
OK, this reply has made up my mind. I, too, subscribed to this list thinking I would be reading about digital radio. I have tried to weed through the chaffe to get to the posts with some real substance. It seems that there are a few posters on this list who just argue any point that comes up, and the rest just agree with one side or the other. I have been licensed since 1983. I have been playing digital radio in one form or another for close to 20 years. That's what I am interested in. Don't bother replying to me on this list, because I won't see it. You guys enjoy yourselves. Roy N9RG tailfeathers wrote: Yeah...that would be the one where you buy a book and sit in the corner and not insult other peoples intelligence with your arrogance...Especially as an newbie...:) Gary n8gsj n4ijs wrote: Hello! I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if this comes across off base. But, I came here looking for information on digital modes for Amateur Radio - not various, multi-post messages about various peoples opinion (and arguments) on unrelated topics. I am sure that these discussions are important to a select group of folks, but are there no other places for these types of discussions to take place? I belong to several Ham related Yahoo! forums and this one certainly produces (by far) the most emails; however, few are related to the topic at hand. So, I have to weed through these other messages to get to the real ones. If this just the way of this forum, that's fine - I will just unsubscribe. I hope that isn't the case, but, if it is, can anyone recommend a forum for exploring digital modes within Ham Radio? Thanks and 73, Robert - N4IJS --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com, Rud Merriam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Katrina and Rita shelters were opened where there were people in need. Whether supplies could readily reach them was a problem to be solved, not a requirement for shelter location. You are not understanding the widespread nature of these disasters. It was easier to solve the supply problem than the rescue problem. A supply truck or helicopter with supplies can make it in once a day. The multiple vehicles, trucks or helicopters, to evacuate people were not available. Your hypothetical versus others real world experience is misleading you. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net http://TheHamNetwork.net Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. Jim WA0LYK Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links -- Roy G. Jackson N9RG Naples, Florida USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
jgorman01 wrote: Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. Rural, yes, as most of Coastal Miss is. Storm passes. Roads are not clear, not safe. Big Green helicopter lands. Get's them MRE's and pallets of water. Tells them the storm has passed. Leaves. No power, no phones. This site did have water pressure. And nothing happens More nothing. No relief, no magic COWS (cells on wheels). County EOC is leveled. Police are dealing with fires critical emergencies. There is no way to call them. Shelter manager has no communication with their HQ, as their HQ is just getting setup. She cannot leave, nor are non-relief/emergency vehicles allowed on the road. Ham's drop in. Vectored via HF to the ad-hoc county EOC setup at an elementary school. From there, they deploy to the largest known shelters. Some shelters are unknown status. Others have big issues. Yes, I have a 4wd truck. I did not have to use it, but many areas low passenger cars would not have worked. Ham's were able to drive in, provided: - They had ARC placards on their windshields - The local EOC's (usually emergency) had notified law enforcement (via ham liaison) that they were moving through. When our group entered coast Miss from rural miss, we came at night into a blacked out city effectively under curfew. We were stopped at most intersections and cleared through. So yes, when ham's showed up and setup 2m at the shelters, it usually established their first communication with the county EOC's, and slightly later ARC local HQ. Even on day 10 of the event, 2m ham nets were the only communication the shelters had with their HQ. Phones were up down even once they started working again. The 2m net was requested to remain in place well after citizens were allowed to travel, power was back, etc (day 12 or so). It was much longer than that before phone service was reliable and cell service worked for any by local SMS. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. You've never been onsite for a large event then. Shelters are established prior to the event. And fill rapidly. And are absolutely in the disaster zone. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. You sir, are mis-informed. Shelters are already established. Some do require relocation after the event. In fact that was one of the activities I coordinated was establishing communications in a new shelter setup 10-15 miles away from one that had to be evacuated due to water/structural damage. Relocation of shelters and the people moves required significant coordination, and ham 2m radio was the only real time comms they had. Sad but true. 1950's simplex technology. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. ARC shelter managers cannot leave. Those in place prior to a storm stay unless relieved, and most did not have anywhere to go, they were impacted as well. At the shelter in question, the shelter manager was local, but had been dropped off and did not have a vehicle. There is no runner capability, they barely had enough trained staff to man all the shelters! ARC volunteers who come in later fly in, and are ferried into place. Vehicles for use by ARC were in high demand. None were available for runner use, nor were ARC volunteers commonly used for this. They had far more important work staffing/relieving/relocating shelters. Was there occasional info flow from people dropping off staff later in the event? Yes, but it was not timely, accurate, or efficient. And in most cases, hams were there first. In several cases the team I was on was the first to establish contact with the ARC shelters from outside the little city/county and get status/needs reports back to ARC hq. Several cases I relayed over HF to Montgomery. In the case of the shelter I was referring to, I know for a fact that hams were the first communication this shelter had with anyone outside the shelter. (Other than that initial helicopter, which only told them the storm was passed) Their only option would have been to send a client 3/4 of a mile out to the road, and try to flag down a passing law enforcement vehicle. This might have worked, but LE was awfully busy. And ARC does not use clients for this type of thing. Later, this shelter had 2 more staff assigned,
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Alan, I APPLAUD your efforts during that storm! Your last statement hit home, that if people don't practice they won't be prepared! Our problem is that we train and train and train, but are NEVER called upon during the Statewide or County exercises. Doesn't do ANY good to practice what you've trained for if you're never asked to play! Rod KC7CJO Clackamas County Electronic Services, Radio Shop Alan Barrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jgorman01 wrote: Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. Rural, yes, as most of Coastal Miss is. Storm passes. Roads are not clear, not safe. Big Green helicopter lands. Get's them MRE's and pallets of water. Tells them the storm has passed. Leaves. No power, no phones. This site did have water pressure. And nothing happens More nothing. No relief, no magic COWS (cells on wheels). County EOC is leveled. Police are dealing with fires critical emergencies. There is no way to call them. Shelter manager has no communication with their HQ, as their HQ is just getting setup. She cannot leave, nor are non-relief/emergency vehicles allowed on the road. Ham's drop in. Vectored via HF to the ad-hoc county EOC setup at an elementary school. From there, they deploy to the largest known shelters. Some shelters are unknown status. Others have big issues. Yes, I have a 4wd truck. I did not have to use it, but many areas low passenger cars would not have worked. Ham's were able to drive in, provided: - They had ARC placards on their windshields - The local EOC's (usually emergency) had notified law enforcement (via ham liaison) that they were moving through. When our group entered coast Miss from rural miss, we came at night into a blacked out city effectively under curfew. We were stopped at most intersections and cleared through. So yes, when ham's showed up and setup 2m at the shelters, it usually established their first communication with the county EOC's, and slightly later ARC local HQ. Even on day 10 of the event, 2m ham nets were the only communication the shelters had with their HQ. Phones were up down even once they started working again. The 2m net was requested to remain in place well after citizens were allowed to travel, power was back, etc (day 12 or so). It was much longer than that before phone service was reliable and cell service worked for any by local SMS. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. You've never been onsite for a large event then. Shelters are established prior to the event. And fill rapidly. And are absolutely in the disaster zone. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. You sir, are mis-informed. Shelters are already established. Some do require relocation after the event. In fact that was one of the activities I coordinated was establishing communications in a new shelter setup 10-15 miles away from one that had to be evacuated due to water/structural damage. Relocation of shelters and the people moves required significant coordination, and ham 2m radio was the only real time comms they had. Sad but true. 1950's simplex technology. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. ARC shelter managers cannot leave. Those in place prior to a storm stay unless relieved, and most did not have anywhere to go, they were impacted as well. At the shelter in question, the shelter manager was local, but had been dropped off and did not have a vehicle. There is no runner capability, they barely had enough trained staff to man all the shelters! ARC volunteers who come in later fly in, and are ferried into place. Vehicles for use by ARC were in high demand. None were available for runner use, nor were ARC volunteers commonly used for this. They had far more important work staffing/relieving/relocating shelters. Was there occasional info flow from people dropping off staff later in the event? Yes, but it was not timely, accurate, or efficient. And in most cases, hams were there first. In several cases the team I was on was the first to establish contact with the ARC shelters from outside the little city/county and get status/needs reports back to ARC hq.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Jim wrote: Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. And the most important limitation: Even once roads were open to non-emergency traffic, where do they get fuel? The pipelines were shut down. Local stations dead due to no power. Even Atlanta was impacted by the fuel availability for weeks. Fuel was limited to law enforcement and emergency vehicles only in the coastal area, if available at all. Even in Jackson Miss when we came thru, we were only able to get fuel because we were registered as a relief convoy. I entered the Katrina zone with fuel for almost 3000 miles. I used most of it. As such, for several days I was one of the few vehicles in our area which was not fuel constrained. Even then, I logged over 2000 miles during just 8 days onsite. So the idea that ARC could/should just use runners instead of radio is sadly very ignorant of the real conditions encountered. Have fun Alan km4ba
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
You have led a sheltered life. Try operating in the Philipines after a volcano blows, or in Mexico after the same incident, or in Africa after a transvaal fire, then tell me Hams are not needed. It's too bad we are getting comments like this from the uninformed with no experience. Get some beard growth and you'll rapidly change your mind. 73 Les At 08:13 AM 1/11/2008, jgorman01 wrote: --- In mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.comdigitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Alan Barrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I personally had a Red Cross shelter leader run after my truck and flag me down because she thought we were packing up. quote: You don't know how much we still need you guys. Until you arrived we had no communications since the big green helicopter landed and kicked out pallets or MRE's. The phones still don't work, please do not leave. Don't think that did not change my perspective and disillusionment. This is not an ego thing, exactly the opposite. Made me realize that independent of what I thought we could or should do (my ego), we had a job to do. I should set aside my annoyances preferences, that what we were doing was important and needed. Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. snip I guess the core difference is some are saying we have no business even providing emergency service. And I believe that is a very extreme and unsound position. Your guess is wrong. No one I have seen post is saying that we have no business providing emergency communications where appropriate and in a manner that support the public best. snip So what's this have to do with digital radio? I think we have a large opportunity to contribute. We all want an alternative to $1k proprietary modems. But until we get that alternative there is some value there. That does not mean we can or should compromise operation in the rest of the bands. But there needs to be a place. Just like there should be for other digital modes, current and future. The whole idea that a legal limit rtty contest op is somehow appropriate allowed, yet other digi sigs should not be is non-sensical. Some of the new modes offer incredible performance efficiency. they can be fun for casual work. But they could also offer significant value in an emergency if harnessed. You might have continued and made an argument for full blown pactor 3 bandwidth for emergencies but you blew it by including casual use. The use of wide signals within a limited spectrum WILL displace several others that want to use narrow signals. It is obvious that you have no love for rtty, yet several rtty signals can fit into the bandwidth of a 2.2 kHz pactor 3 signal. Would you impinge upon their preferred mode of operation for your casual use? It sounds like it. No one is guaranteed a time or place to operate. The wider the signal you wish to use, the fewer places and times there are that you can use it. That's life, move on. I also assume you are upset over rm-11392 that would limit bandwidths. You really haven't made a case for casual use of anything wider than the 1.5 kHz that is being asked for. Remember, this bandwidth limit has been there for a long time, it just wasn't codified. The current rules were adequate prior to the introduction of ofdm modulation to the amateur bands. Pactor 3 is simply EXPLOITING a loophole in the way that the regulations are currently written. Perhaps you should write a comment to the fcc that you believe bandwidth limits are ok for all data modes except for ofdm emissions which should have no limits on their bandwidth. It sounds like that is what you wish. snip Have fun, Alan Jim WA0LYK No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: 1/10/2008 1:32 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Thanks Robert, I support you 100% 73 de LA5VNA Steinar n4ijs skrev: Hello! I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if this comes across off base. But, I came here looking for information on digital modes for Amateur Radio - not various, multi-post messages about various peoples opinion (and arguments) on unrelated topics. I am sure that these discussions are important to a select group of folks, but are there no other places for these types of discussions to take place? I belong to several Ham related Yahoo! forums and this one certainly produces (by far) the most emails; however, few are related to the topic at hand. So, I have to weed through these other messages to get to the real ones. If this just the way of this forum, that's fine - I will just unsubscribe. I hope that isn't the case, but, if it is, can anyone recommend a forum for exploring digital modes within Ham Radio? Thanks and 73, Robert - N4IJS --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com, Rud Merriam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Katrina and Rita shelters were opened where there were people in need. Whether supplies could readily reach them was a problem to be solved, not a requirement for shelter location. You are not understanding the widespread nature of these disasters. It was easier to solve the supply problem than the rescue problem. A supply truck or helicopter with supplies can make it in once a day. The multiple vehicles, trucks or helicopters, to evacuate people were not available. Your hypothetical versus others real world experience is misleading you. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net http://TheHamNetwork.net Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. Jim WA0LYK
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Robert, All these issues on exploring the digital modes are and should be discussed. It depends upon what interests the posters who are willing to share that information. Be thankful that they do. Many of these discussions are vital to amateur radio. The decisions to come will affect you personally. Perhaps in ways you like and then again perhaps in ways you do not like. You can choose to ignore them and not participate, this is up to each individual. As far as weeding, it does take work. I have to remove many posts that do not interest me such as on individuals making contacts through the group, that sort of thing, so it does sometimes take an extra minute per day to do this. For specific discussion on emergency communications, there is the hfdec (hams for disaster and emergency communication). There have been times I have asked a digital specific question and received no help. Probably because no one knows the answer. On the other hand, there have been many times that I have asked a question and received help. What specific digital information were you looking for that you can not find elsewhere? 73, Rick, KV9U n4ijs wrote: Hello! I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if this comes across off base. But, I came here looking for information on digital modes for Amateur Radio - not various, multi-post messages about various peoples opinion (and arguments) on unrelated topics. I am sure that these discussions are important to a select group of folks, but are there no other places for these types of discussions to take place? I belong to several Ham related Yahoo! forums and this one certainly produces (by far) the most emails; however, few are related to the topic at hand. So, I have to weed through these other messages to get to the real ones. If this just the way of this forum, that's fine - I will just unsubscribe. I hope that isn't the case, but, if it is, can anyone recommend a forum for exploring digital modes within Ham Radio? Thanks and 73, Robert - N4IJS
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
In Katrina and Rita shelters were opened where there were people in need. Whether supplies could readily reach them was a problem to be solved, not a requirement for shelter location. You are not understanding the widespread nature of these disasters. It was easier to solve the supply problem than the rescue problem. A supply truck or helicopter with supplies can make it in once a day. The multiple vehicles, trucks or helicopters, to evacuate people were not available. Your hypothetical versus others real world experience is misleading you. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. Jim WA0LYK
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Yeah...that would be the one where you buy a book and sit in the corner and not insult other peoples intelligence with your arrogance...Especially as an newbie...:) Gary n8gsj n4ijs wrote: Hello! I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if this comes across off base. But, I came here looking for information on digital modes for Amateur Radio - not various, multi-post messages about various peoples opinion (and arguments) on unrelated topics. I am sure that these discussions are important to a select group of folks, but are there no other places for these types of discussions to take place? I belong to several Ham related Yahoo! forums and this one certainly produces (by far) the most emails; however, few are related to the topic at hand. So, I have to weed through these other messages to get to the real ones. If this just the way of this forum, that's fine - I will just unsubscribe. I hope that isn't the case, but, if it is, can anyone recommend a forum for exploring digital modes within Ham Radio? Thanks and 73, Robert - N4IJS --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rud Merriam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Katrina and Rita shelters were opened where there were people in need. Whether supplies could readily reach them was a problem to be solved, not a requirement for shelter location. You are not understanding the widespread nature of these disasters. It was easier to solve the supply problem than the rescue problem. A supply truck or helicopter with supplies can make it in once a day. The multiple vehicles, trucks or helicopters, to evacuate people were not available. Your hypothetical versus others real world experience is misleading you. Rud Merriam K5RUD ARES AEC Montgomery County, TX http://TheHamNetwork.net Your first paragraph indicates that the shelter was so remote and isolated that it required helicopter delivery of food and water. Yet you also indicate that you were in your truck which indicates you could drive to the shelter. Maybe you were driving a monster truck? Some of this appears to be an appeal to emotion. I HAVE been around long enough to know neither the ARC or SA would open a shelter in a location that was not reachable by regular supply vehicles nor that had SOME kind of communications. I am pretty sure that the government authorities would not authorize this either. To do otherwise is simply asking for the shelter staff to require 'rescuing' at some time in the future thereby adding to the problem. Consequently, when you say no communications, you are overstating the facts. Now maybe, a runner in a vehicle may the only means of communication, but never the less, it is communications. Jim WA0LYK Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at http://www.obriensweb.com/sked DRCC contest info : http://www.obriensweb.com/drcc.htm Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Emergency agencies/ ham equipment/ hams in emcomm
Robert, I may be in a minority, but I don't think you're off base. If you stick around you WILL find posts that are more to what you (and I) sought as a focus of a digital radio forum. You just have to sort through a myriad of repetitive philosophical postings on topics that sometimes seem to range a bit wide (take a peek at the subject line of this thread to which you replied, for example), or not infrequently include condescending comments (as in one earlier reply to your query). Although I don't consider myself a newbie (licensed in '62, working digital for well over 20 years, and a member of this forum for quite some time), I think it's time for me to again stop receiving email postings. I'll just update my forum options and visit via the web from time to time. And yes, I DO actively participate in emergency and disaster communications, both digital and voice. OK guys, flame me if you wish. They won't clutter my mail box. 73 to all. Truly. Nothing personal, Andy. See you all on the digital modes. John Hirth W2KI
