Re: [steering-discuss] SC Meeting: Minutes Draft, 2011-09-07
Hi Christoph, Christoph Noack wrote on 2011-09-07 21:57: @ SC members and deputies: Please review the meeting minutes to make sure everything is correct (especially since we've discussed so many topics). Otherwise, you might miss an action item that has been accidentally assigned to you ;-))) thanks for the notes, looks good to me! Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills
On 7 September 2011 15:56, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) Bad was not really the right word. Negative would have been more apt. Anyway the point is that i mis-read the email and failed to see the positives. Written communication is sometimes limited because it it lacks 90% of what you get from face-to-face. On the other hand it neatly gets around a lot of prejudices so on balance it usually works quite well. I think we all want LibreOffice to get out there as much as possible and to have good support structures, if that's reasonably easily possible. This and other training programmes seem an excellent way to achieve that. Regards from Tom :) Hi all, I'm back from sunny Granada to cool and Cloudy Birmingham :-) Here is a link to a page with a scan of a certificate with an OOo logo. This would be replaced by a LibO logo for candidates who are LibO users. The certificate is in Word Processing - our emphasis is on WP skills rather than specific button pressing in particular products - however, the logo denotes the context in which those skills were developed and assessed. The draft handbook for assessors can be downloaded from the Link below the certificate image. If there is anything anyone is unhappy about with wording etc please let me know asap as the handbook is currently being translated into Spanish and we will need to use it next week. We can always release an updated version later though. We will be using Lulu for paper publishing and ebooks, pdf, odt and web pages for digital versions. All Creative Commons licensed so anyone can customise to their own particular needs. Probably we will produce multiple language versions using EU grant funding. From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 15:24:37 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills The bad parts? :-) Best, Charles. Le 7 sept. 2011 15:11, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit : Hi :) Fantastic :) I think i only read the bad parts of Charles' post completely missed the good. Great to hear it's beginning to click into place :) Regards from Tom :) From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 12:21:07 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills Ok, no problem, that is what we intended. snip / Ian Sent from my Android Smartphone. www.theingots.org On 7 Sep 2011 12:24, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote: Hi, snip / Just to add: the LibreOffice-Logo without TDF tag line should be used. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills
Oops forgot the link! Its here https://theingots.org/community/OOoCert On 8 September 2011 11:50, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 September 2011 15:56, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) Bad was not really the right word. Negative would have been more apt. Anyway the point is that i mis-read the email and failed to see the positives. Written communication is sometimes limited because it it lacks 90% of what you get from face-to-face. On the other hand it neatly gets around a lot of prejudices so on balance it usually works quite well. I think we all want LibreOffice to get out there as much as possible and to have good support structures, if that's reasonably easily possible. This and other training programmes seem an excellent way to achieve that. Regards from Tom :) Hi all, I'm back from sunny Granada to cool and Cloudy Birmingham :-) Here is a link to a page with a scan of a certificate with an OOo logo. This would be replaced by a LibO logo for candidates who are LibO users. The certificate is in Word Processing - our emphasis is on WP skills rather than specific button pressing in particular products - however, the logo denotes the context in which those skills were developed and assessed. The draft handbook for assessors can be downloaded from the Link below the certificate image. If there is anything anyone is unhappy about with wording etc please let me know asap as the handbook is currently being translated into Spanish and we will need to use it next week. We can always release an updated version later though. We will be using Lulu for paper publishing and ebooks, pdf, odt and web pages for digital versions. All Creative Commons licensed so anyone can customise to their own particular needs. Probably we will produce multiple language versions using EU grant funding. From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 15:24:37 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills The bad parts? :-) Best, Charles. Le 7 sept. 2011 15:11, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk a écrit : Hi :) Fantastic :) I think i only read the bad parts of Charles' post completely missed the good. Great to hear it's beginning to click into place :) Regards from Tom :) From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 7 September, 2011 12:21:07 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Certification of end-user skills Ok, no problem, that is what we intended. snip / Ian Sent from my Android Smartphone. www.theingots.org On 7 Sep 2011 12:24, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote: Hi, snip / Just to add: the LibreOffice-Logo without TDF tag line should be used. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
Re: [steering-discuss] SPI BoD meeting
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Sophie Gautier gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, The Board of Directors of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., will hold a public board of directors meeting on Wednesday, 14th September 2011 at 20:30 UTC. The agenda for the meeting is open for additions and is available at http://www.spi-inc.org/meetings/agendas/2011/2011-09-14/ I'll attend the meeting. sophi. I've been to the 'donation' page... http://www.spi-inc.org/donations/ and the credit-card based page linked from there https://co.clickandpledge.com/advanced/default.aspx?wid=34115 does not allow for a donation earmarked to libreoffice. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] how change macro security level?
On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:55 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote: On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 09:00 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote: On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 07:34 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote: The remaining questions are ... Does anybody else share the problem of the ineffective MacroSecurity... button? No, works fine here. Does anybody care? Sure, but it works for me. Thank you. I shall relax about the issue until I know more. Its because of your --disable-mozilla. The relevant macro security dialog code is included in a library only built and installed when moz is included. Fixed this now in master to always include the dialog. C. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] how change macro security level?
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 09:35 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote: On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:55 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote: On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 09:00 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote: On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 07:34 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote: The remaining questions are ... Does anybody else share the problem of the ineffective MacroSecurity... button? No, works fine here. Does anybody care? Sure, but it works for me. Thank you. I shall relax about the issue until I know more. Its because of your --disable-mozilla. The relevant macro security dialog code is included in a library only built and installed when moz is included. Fixed this now in master to always include the dialog. Thank you, Caolán. That is awsome. Terry. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting in replies. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
[tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion
I was wrong about something in my earlier email. I suggested that these features, including Resume, would be nice to have someday in LO, after other important bugs and features are dealt with. I take it back about Resume, because making that work would require supporting Autosave -- a feature which I am afraid of. It is my current understanding that Versions only works on HFS+ volumes, so if an app which autosaves is writing to a FAT32 volume, for instance, your document gets overwritten every few minutes with the latest changes, whether you want to keep them or not. Your old versions are simply lost. Can anyone confirm? Even when the system works as advertised when saving to HFS+, if you email a document to a friend for revisions or carry it around on another storage medium (for example to work on at school), what you get back will contain only the single, latest version. What do you do with it? (a) Throw away all the old versions by overwriting the original file? (b) Remember to change the new file's name and now maintain multiple files? (c) Port the changes so you have the newest data but can still believe you could go back to the old? Keeping multiple files with different names is no different than what we do now to support separate versions of the same file, but the point is, Lion encourages the bad option (a) by making saving a no-brainer process. It trains users NOT to think about what happens to maintain file data, because saving and autosaving are supposed to always be safe because you can always go back...a premise that simply is not true. I have only lost data a few times due to forgetting to save a document, mostly because of buggy apps which will close without alerting the user about unsaved data. I'm not afraid of forgetting to save. I'm much more afraid of making inadvertent changes that then get autosaved, or of depending upon an old version to be there as promised, but finding it lost. I hope LO will avoid ever supporting Autosave, and therefore Resume. -- Charles . PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION: The information contained in this electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged and confidential. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion
Hi Charles, this is only on autosave and recover. What I know from other platforms (Solaris/Linux) is that autosave saves into a hidden file in the background not destroying your last saved document. Just in case of an unforeseen shutdown of the system, a power outage or a crash of the whole soffice suite, X11 system or OS these hidden files remain in background. Restarting soffice next time finds all the leftover hidden files from last time and offers to recover them. (Of course a regular save and exit from soffice deletes all hidden files.) This is an important and yet simple funcionality, which should not be missed to implement. Why? Don't forget the multiuser systems, the world is not made of single user pc's. Imagine people working on a server system with multiple users (e.g. a MacServer)? As a system administrator you may want to shutdown the system for maintenance, or any other outage breaks the server connections and your boss or any other user is cutoff, went home, has gone for a coffee, or whatever you can imagine without logging out and saving his work properly. Ok, they need punishment, but it's easy to be polite to them. And you too will be very satisfied to know that there is an autosave feature which avoids people losing their work in any of these cases. Please do not abandon the autosave and recovery feature from soffice. If it's missing on some platforms it should be implemented asap in the way it is already present in last Staroffice or Openoffice releases. I agree with most of the rest of your contribution. Regards, Karl On 08.09.11 16:47, Charles Jenkins wrote: I was wrong about something in my earlier email. I suggested that these features, including Resume, would be nice to have someday in LO, after other important bugs and features are dealt with. I take it back about Resume, because making that work would require supporting Autosave -- a feature which I am afraid of. It is my current understanding that Versions only works on HFS+ volumes, so if an app which autosaves is writing to a FAT32 volume, for instance, your document gets overwritten every few minutes with the latest changes, whether you want to keep them or not. Your old versions are simply lost. Can anyone confirm? Even when the system works as advertised when saving to HFS+, if you email a document to a friend for revisions or carry it around on another storage medium (for example to work on at school), what you get back will contain only the single, latest version. What do you do with it? (a) Throw away all the old versions by overwriting the original file? (b) Remember to change the new file's name and now maintain multiple files? (c) Port the changes so you have the newest data but can still believe you could go back to the old? Keeping multiple files with different names is no different than what we do now to support separate versions of the same file, but the point is, Lion encourages the bad option (a) by making saving a no-brainer process. It trains users NOT to think about what happens to maintain file data, because saving and autosaving are supposed to always be safe because you can always go back...a premise that simply is not true. I have only lost data a few times due to forgetting to save a document, mostly because of buggy apps which will close without alerting the user about unsaved data. I'm not afraid of forgetting to save. I'm much more afraid of making inadvertent changes that then get autosaved, or of depending upon an old version to be there as promised, but finding it lost. I hope LO will avoid ever supporting Autosave, and therefore Resume. -- Charles . PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION: The information contained in this electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged and confidential. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. -- Dr. Karl Behler CODAC IT services ASDEX Upgrade phon +49 89 3299-1351 fax 3299-961351 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion
On 2011-09-08 16:00, Karl wrote: What I know from other platforms (Solaris/Linux) is that autosave saves into a hidden file in the background not destroying your last saved document. Just in case of an unforeseen shutdown of the system, a power outage or a crash of the whole soffice suite, X11 system or OS these hidden files remain in background. Restarting soffice next time finds all the leftover hidden files from last time and offers to recover them. Karl, You and I are talking about two different things that have unfortunately been given the same name. You're thinking of the familiar feature which automatically backs up what you're working on to another backup file. I agree with you. LO must keep that feature! I'm talking of OS X Lion's new trick which is *almost* the same thing, but instead of saving to another off-stage file, it saves to the actual document file you're working on -- before you've decided whether you want to keep the changes. Maybe you don't realize you've even made changes. Old data gets backed up to the off-stage file...unless the document is stored in the wrong place, in which case the old, good data just gets thrown away. Check out this article that just popped up today: http://tidbits.com/article/12483 -- Charles . PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION: The information contained in this electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged and confidential. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 07:07 AM, Robert Parker wrote: There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it. There was no rant. Perhaps you might take time to read the post *and* review the threads in these lists (particularly the 'users' list? Other lists (as I've demonstrated) provide clear instructions the guidelines list users are expected to follow. The point is that LO does not, and instead uses a link to a vague wiki at the bottom of list messages rather than posting guidelines upfront. This tends to lead to ongoing debates on how list posters are to behave. As mentioned: I don't really care if the consensuses is to only top-post on these lists. My primary consideration is to have an established set of posting guidelines (as in the examples provided) so that we no longer have to resort to the 'mine is better' model. It makes it easier for all users; particularly new users as it's then rather simple to point to the guideline url/page and *politely* ask them to abide by the list guidelines. Why is it that after all of the previous debates, posts, aggravation, that LO can't just put up a page regarding list guidelines? Thats a question btw, not a rant. Following /not/ snipped on purpose: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some
