Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go to Apache and say Please let us have that? Oracle are code-dumping because the community left them standing alone. Oracle are acting as generous benefactors but may end up splitting the OS community over this one. We do not need two near-identical office suites. The duplication in effort is not worth it. The option of LibO becoming a customised build of Apache OO, where we take from them and add our own things becomes a maintenance nightmare. LibO 3.4 already has enough clear differences from OOo 3.4 that make the idea of moving code modules back and forth difficult. There will be a lot of re-engineering simply to keep things working and much potential to introduce bugs. From a marketing point of view, the appearance of yet another OpenOffice is not helpful. We now have OpenOffice.org, Star Office, Oracle Open Office, BrOffice, Go-oo, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Symphony, NeoOffice, Euro Office and, of course, LibreOffice. At least when everything else was a build of OOo with some addons, it could be understood. When TDF was set up, it was a case of everything else being a build of LibO with addons, plus OpenOffice.org - and we hoped either Oracle would code-dump in our direction, or just go away. When TDF was set up, there was an invitation to Oracle to take part. They declined. This invitation should be passed on to Apache. They don't need the hassle of maintaining a parallel project - especially one that the wider community has dropped. ZF -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer
Charles I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general setup as alot of the major browsers today use tabs. From an end-user perspective, I think tabs would be a big success for us. They are an obvious, immediate difference from our biggest competitor and something that a lot of users have asked for over the years. They're also easy to use, since web browsers have trained users what to expect. Good idea - clears space on the taskbar, plus - as you say - browsers have got people used to tabs. Maybe people even expect tabs. ZF-- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: Notes Printing (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Printing)
OK - thanks for your work! On 28 Feb 2011 at 22:24, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Zaphod, you are right ... this is one of the most demanded features for Writer (as far as I know). So it is already contained in my small list of proposed EasyHacks for the development. Now the downside - I wasn't able to work on this list since two weeks ... but I hope to propose these list to the development very soon. Here is my user page describing this easy hack: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Temporary_Work_Space#Enable_Printing_for_the_Notes_.28Writer.29 Cheers, Christoph Am Montag, den 28.02.2011, 20:52 + schrieb Zaphod Feeblejocks: Hi All, Since v 2.4 (I think), OO set comments beside the text, in little call-out bubbles. This is a good idea. LibO still does it, as does Word. However, when I print, the comments go (a) on a new page or (b) at the end of the document, with line-numbers printed by each one. This is not friendly. I expected it give me an option to have it look like what I see on- screen (which Word does). What's the best way to report this as a 'desired improvement'. It's not a bug, so I haven't filed it as a bug-report. TIA, Zaphod-- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Printing
Hi All, Since v 2.4 (I think), OO set comments beside the text, in little call-out bubbles. This is a good idea. LibO still does it, as does Word. However, when I print, the comments go (a) on a new page or (b) at the end of the document, with line-numbers printed by each one. This is not friendly. I expected it give me an option to have it look like what I see on- screen (which Word does). What's the best way to report this as a 'desired improvement'. It's not a bug, so I haven't filed it as a bug-report. TIA, Zaphod-- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Computer Magazine cover CDs
Here's one for you marketing gurus - has anyone approached computer magazines about putting LibO on cover disks? -- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On 8 Feb 2011 at 9:45, Ian Lynch wrote: On 8 February 2011 09:18, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote: Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. Yes but probably not by the end of March! The EU spend money on useful things?!!! wow...-- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Congratulations my suggestion for the next versions
1 - Port to a Web based interface (HTML5)
As I said before I really believe that on-premise solutions are going to
become irrelevant in some time, when Zoho, GoogleDocs, etc. are mature
In many cases, this will be true - but not all.
I have worked with many people in the 'developing world', who rarely have
access to a high
bandwidth connection and who are limited to old, low-spec hardware. I even
know some
who still use Win98 ('because it works').
There is a definate case for supporting 'the cloud'. There is also a clear
case for not
forgetting non-cloud users. A product that supports both sets is good.
zf
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Re: [tdf-discuss] The Document Foundation launches LibreOffice 3.3
Well done one and all! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 03/01/11 04:10, Larry Gusaas wrote: Including the ability to write OOXML format is a political decision driven by the Novell and Microsoft marketing agreement. User experience? Ask that question of any user of older versions of Word after they receive a .docx document and are unable to open it. Indeed, I have experienced this myself when trying to send documents. However a blanket ban on OOXML would, in the long run, be a disadvantage to *LibreOffice*. Whether you appreciate it or not the older document formats (.doc .xls .ppt) are going to fade away as Microsoft pushes its I last checked the market-share numbers for office suites in mid 2010, when in discussion with my organisation about whether to go to MSO 07 throughout the campus or drop MSO completely. The figures were, IIRC MSO 2007 - 60% globally MSO 97-2003 - 20% globally OOo 3.x - 20% globally The numbers tilt a bit on different continents. MSO is more popular in corporate America. OOo is more popular (around 30% or more) in Europe - the number increases as you head east. The MSO 97-2003 users are important. Many are not attracted by the Office 07/10 interface, or cannot afford to upgrade. However, as time goes on they will see more .docx appearing and may feel forced to upgrade, if only to maintain access to shared data. Having something that is not MSO but that has an interface like the one they are used to should be very attractive for them. In UK, MS has dropped the price of MSO to students a lot in recent years - £60 two years ago, under £40 today from the software4students reseller. A lot of these 'student' editions end up in small businesses. We should be targeting these people. When Google Chrome was launched, people thought it might cripple Firefox. In reality, a small number of Firefox users switched, while many IE users who were not attracted by FF went to Chrome. Some statistics now put IE at less than 50% of the market. If LibO does everything OOo does and little else, the project would seem to have little point. If LibO embraces functionality and interface features that OOo does not have, it may be that our growth is only in part from OOo users (most of whom are happy with OOo), but mostly from MSO 97-03 users. It may be that without explicity aiming to remove users from our sister, OOo, aiming to take the other 20% who do not use MSO 07 (plus those who do!) may be a more effective way to spread the file format. If we can get ODT used enough - through users choosing to overlook docx output - many MSO users may find it helpful to have LibO (or OOo) installed also. At some point they will wonder why they keep paying for MSO. zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Addons (was: Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format)
On 3 Jan 2011 at 17:29, Michael Wheatland wrote: Could addons be clearly signposted on the main page? Could first-time users be taken to the addons page, so they know functionality can be extended? Could addons be clearly posted in the menus? Could the frequency of downloading addons be counted and a pack of the most popular ones be compiled? Could the most-frequent-addons pack even be an optional extra included with the download? Zaphod, I have some good news for you. The website team is already tackling this with the Drupal implementation. In case you are not aware the current site at libreoffice.org is earmarked for an upgrade (as per the steering committee advice). The website team has been busy building the site over at a temporary domain www.libreofficeaustralia.org Great work! zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] (Fwd) The French Gov. loves Microsoft
On 3 Jan 2011 at 14:12, sophie wrote: Hi Zaphod, On 01/01/2011 20:52, Zaphod Feeblejocks wrote: Did you know that anything running Linux in France is not a computer? The outworking of this is a skewed market in favour of MS operating systems, and therefore in favour of MS applications. This DOES affect LibO. I would not be so affirmative concerning this news. The deputies (all of [snip] http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-secteurs/tech-medias/actu/0201007324477.htm http://www.frandroid.com/52983/copie-privee-les-tablettes-seront-maintenant-taxees-en-france/ Bonjour Sophie, Thank you for making this clear. If I have understood, some devices are not taxed because they run a version of an operating system intended for desktop PCs (Windows). I imagine there will be lots of discussion in France about this - and also here in UK! The French system of taxing portable media has been discussed as something we might do also and this 'tablet tax' might be attractive to some people. I guess if you want to buy an iPad in France, now is a good time to do it! Merci, zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: (Fwd) The French Gov. loves Microsoft
Hi Alex, The current French government needs money, big time - the mobile/embedded market is still fairly bouyant - what better way to generate a revenue stream to fill the depleted coffers ? ;-) How cynical! You make them almost sound like the UK government, who put 5p onto the price of a litre of petrol or a pint of beer when money is needed! zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Supporting OOXML Strict today would make LO not compatible with MS Office, and users do want interoperability and not just standard compliance. Anyone remember Netscape? It supported the W3C standards, Internet Explorer did not. But, MS, through Frontpage etc., flooded the market with non-standard HTML. To the user, it appeared that Netscape was broken. As a few people have said, reading .docx (in whichever version) is needed. Else, LibO appears to be broken. However, which version would we write to? There is not even a 100% guarantee that Word 2014 will support the ISO version of OOXML. Maybe it will support Word 2010's version. Maybe it will be slightly different (again). Sounds like trying to hit a moving target. If Word had full ODT import (and hence, complied with at least one ISO standard), this would not be an issue. I'm glad I'm not making the decision! zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Addons (was: Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format)
On 2 Jan 2011 at 9:59, Craig A. Eddy wrote: I also agree that ANY write-to docx should be an add-on, and not part of the vanilla release. Hi Craig, I have a concern about the Addons. In my 10+ years of using OpenOffice/StarOffice, the inclusion of addons was a great idea. However, the marketing of addons was not so good - hidden away in a place that you can find once, but not so easily find again. Could addons be clearly signposted on the main page? Could first-time users be taken to the addons page, so they know functionality can be extended? Could addons be clearly posted in the menus? Could the frequency of downloading addons be counted and a pack of the most popular ones be compiled? Could the most-frequent-addons pack even be an optional extra included with the download? There could even be the 'vanilla' install and the 'bumper-pack' install. Last summer, as part of the MSO to OOo migration, I hacked a batch file to install OOo with various settings and then various addons I had chosen (why was 'clipart' an addon, I wonder?). Simplifying this for downloaders wil help - I know several people who think OOo is not very good, because it has no clipart. Personally, I don't care about clipart but it's all down to user perceptions! zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] Co-working with Moz, etc (was:Do not support writing to OOXML format)
The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice is driven by Novell too? I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to any developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our code and endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join us and suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this was politely declined by Oracle). I think this is an important issue, and one which can be open to massive amount of FUD. I'm sure TDF is thankful to Novell for their input, but the wariness that exists to anyone who is working with Microsoft for any reason cannot be ignored. Ways to resolve this include: - Open (and easy to find) statistics on the numbers of current developers on LibO and their background. - More clear input from Google, etc., towards easy integration with Google Docs (in the way that the MSO integration with the web-based version of MSO will become something users expect). - Joint-branding with Thunderbird, Scribus, etc. There have been many posts on the OOo lists over the years asking do you do a calendar? or Do you have a Publisher replacement. No, we don't - but clearly promoting other open source projects and working with them to make life easy for people coming away from MSO helps all people. This would include LibO pointing to downloads for Mozilla packages and vice-versa. If Mozilla wanted to point to both LibO and OOo as the projects grow apart, that's fine - we are all part of a larger OS fraternity. - Working on a common look-and-feel in a number of OS apps. Could a Mozilla 'skin' that can be applied to LibO, OOo, Scribus, etc., be viable? Or a 'Traditional OO' skin that can be used across packages be there for people who don't like to change UI much? What do you think? zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Sveinn, Sure, but how about conservation and readability by future generations (when there's no more Microsoft knowledge around and nobody knows anymore how to decrypt all the nuances of.doc + .docx files) ? Fair point. But: most users do not care. Not exporting to Word will make it look like LibO is faulty. I have to save in MSO formats to share work with others. At work, we have an MSO policy. While I can use whatever I like on my desktop, I have to save spreadsheets in MSO formats because Excel 07 kills ODS formulae. If I prepare a document as ODT, the few Word 2003 dies-hards complain I am refusing to inter-operate. I do still assign student work to be submitted as either .doc or .odt and mark students down for using .docx (they failed to read the instructions). They are also marked down for not using proper spacing and a serif font. I don't want to see the .docx format spread any further and advocate using ODT as the default. However, not having the option to export as .doc and .docx will cause users to wonder if they want to promote LibO. It must be arrogant for them to send you a format you don't support. Also, if the Win 7 users don't know what format the documents are in, why does it matter if it's returned to them in a .doc format? Think you hit the nail on the head, pal. Those who ignore any notion of a file format, will do it both ways, always, anyways... Office on-the-web only saves in docx. Office 2013/4 will quite possibly drop .doc export, just as Word 6/95 export was dropped from Word 2003 - after a failed attempt to drop it from 2000. MS can do this because they are the market leader. To fail to offer even rudimentary docx export would damage LibO's market penetration. my thoughts anyway! zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] (Fwd) The French Gov. loves Microsoft
Did you know that anything running Linux in France is not a computer? The outworking of this is a skewed market in favour of MS operating systems, and therefore in favour of MS applications. This DOES affect LibO. From: http://tinyurl.com/33ynbv7 Microsoft apparently has quite a following in the French government, which has recently decided to tax tablets...but only those that aren´t running a Windows operating system. It has been the case for some time now that France has taxed mp3 players in an attempt to compensate for piracy of media, but according to French magazine Numerama, that existing legislation does not extend to computers. As a result, the government needed a way to define what devices qualify as computers, which led to the decision to deem a device a computer only if it runs Microsoft Windows. This means that, as far as the French government is concerned, a tablet running any other operating system -- including Linux, Mac OS, or Android -- is just a device used by pirates who need to be taxed. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] docx export
Just a thought Might the following message be useful the first time a user tries to save in docx. -- Caution: this format is only fully supported by MS Word since 2007. Saving in this format may not be suitable if you wish to share data with users of older versions of Word or users of other file formats. If you are sharing with users of older versions of Word, the .doc format is recommended. Please select which format to save as: [ ] DOCX[ ]DOC [ ]Remember my choice and don't ask me this question again when DOCX is selected. -- In the selection for which file-type to use, would the following phrasing be useful. Docx is there - just not encouraged! If my understanding is correct, docx is an xml representation of the binary format, so saying .doc is a format for Word 97-2010 is correct. MS Word 97-2010 (.doc) MS Word 95 (.doc) MS Word 6 (.doc) MS Word 2007-10 (.docx) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] download options
OOo has for a long time given an option of downloading the full OOo package with or without JRE. Ubuntu gives the option of full package, or only key components (Writer, Calc, etc). To avoid bloat, what about a joint-hosted TDF/Moz/others site, giving an option of: From TDF: - Writer - Calc - etc From Moz: - Tbird - Lightening From Scribus - Scribus Maybe an option for a shared dictionary tool. Defaults could be Writer, Calc, Impress, Tbird, Lightening, Dictionary. This could even interrogate the user's current installation to suggest options to download. Once the download is under way, as well as Thank you an advert for other OS productivity software could be included - e.g. the GIMP, or Pinta, or a mention of web-tools, such as Google Docs. zf -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Name Change for LibreOffice Applications
+1 I also don't like the current names much either. IMHO, they don't sound very good and they don't describe the apps well either. Calc makes the app sound like it's an advanced calculator, not a spreadsheet app, Impress is too generic, and Writer sounds like a specialized tool for writers. I do like the names for Draw, Base, and Formula, though. A fair point, but rebranding doesn't always help - it can cause confusion. Plenty of programs use names that are well-known, whether they always make sense or not. e.g 'Word' does more than just words. 'WordPerfect' can make mistakes. 'WordPro' can be used by amateurs too. 'Excel' does not always excel. '1-2-3' can manage big numbers too. 'PowerPoint' has nothing to do with AC electrical outlets. 'Photoshop' is about more than photographs. 'GIMP' can be used by normal people too. 'Paint.NET' does not require a brush. 'Firefox' has nothing to do with burning wild mammals. 'Chrome' is not an element. 'Scribus' is not just for midieval monks who copy manuscripts. 'Page Maker' isn't just for people who manufacture paper. 'Windows' isn't made of glass. 'Unix' can be used by anyone, not just eunuchs. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Name Change for LibreOffice Applications
With regard to the original question: are there any surveys or data that confirm that the names for Writer, Calc and Impress need to be improved? (I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case for Impress; I don't see a problem for the others.) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice should have own LibreOfficeFont
Personally I would like to see active discouragement of the use of Times New Roman, Georgia, Verdana, Arial, Calibri, Cambia, etc. as they are restricted to Microsoft product use only, resulting in impossible verbatim compatibility. My concern is this: Several years ago I started using Garamond on almost everything - long before I knew is was MS. I have many old documents that use it. I have Garamond installed on Ubuntu for that reason. I can easily use jGaramond and tell Writer at my end to subsitute Garamond with jGaramond. However, if I send a document to a Windows user they probably do not have jGaramond. If I have selected jGaramond at my end, it is likely to be rendered as Times New Roman at the reciever. An easy way to specify: 1- font to use at my end; 2- preferred replacement font, if (1) is not available would be good. - kinda like the way I tell my phone to use Meteor when in Ireland, and if that is not available, to use O2. If this is already possible, please reply politely to tell me to RTFM and I'll be quiet! TIA, z -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
