Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[v_2e]

  Hello!

On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:26:16 +
Tony Pursell  wrote:

> I'm not making any proposal here for changing the Save icon.  I'm just
> trying to
> use my experience as evidence that we don't have to stick with an
> antiquated
> floppy disk icon just because its the thing that everyone knows is
> the Save icon.
> 
  Sure we don't *have* to, but ... why not?

  By the way, if there is a way for the user to choose the icon set,
what are the reasons to change the default style? I mean, not from
aesthetic point of view, but from a practical one.

  Regards,
Vladimir
- 
 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Tony Pursell]

On 11 January 2012 22:15,  wrote:

>  I like the floppy icon.
>
>  "HDD" icon is being broadly used nowadays, but as somebody pointed in
> this thread, not every user is familiar with computer inside, so
> changing from one thing that they haven't seen to another one which
> they also haven't seen doesn't make much sense.
>  "Optical drive" icon is a bad variant because people usually do not
> save the documents directly to the optical drive; instead they usually
> tend to associate the "CD" icon with CD/DVD burning process.
>  "USB" icon is also not a better solution, because not every user
> knows what this sign means (although they probably can see it on many
> different devices).
>
>  In any case, the traditional "Foppy" icon just works. Why changing
> something that works? The policy of making changes for their own sake
> does not seem a good one to me. Just my thoughts.
>
>  Regards,
>Vladimir
>
>
I will just repeat what I said near the start of this thread.

I use Ubuntu 11.10 and with its Humanity theme come a set of icons which
includes, for the Save icon,  a representation of  hard drive with a broad
green
down arrow on top of it.  Until this thread started, I did not even realise
that I
had an icon that was different from the traditional 'floppy disk'.  The
fact that it
is positioned where I would expect the Save icon to be (third from left
after the New
and Open icons) with a tool tip that says 'Save' was sufficient for me to
accept it
as the Save icon without any conscious effort.

I'm not making any proposal here for changing the Save icon.  I'm just
trying to
use my experience as evidence that we don't have to stick with an
antiquated
floppy disk icon just because its the thing that everyone knows is the Save
icon.

Tony

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[v_2e]

  I like the floppy icon.

  "HDD" icon is being broadly used nowadays, but as somebody pointed in
this thread, not every user is familiar with computer inside, so
changing from one thing that they haven't seen to another one which
they also haven't seen doesn't make much sense.
  "Optical drive" icon is a bad variant because people usually do not
save the documents directly to the optical drive; instead they usually
tend to associate the "CD" icon with CD/DVD burning process.
  "USB" icon is also not a better solution, because not every user
knows what this sign means (although they probably can see it on many
different devices).

  In any case, the traditional "Foppy" icon just works. Why changing
something that works? The policy of making changes for their own sake
does not seem a good one to me. Just my thoughts.

  Regards,
Vladimir

- 
 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 wrote:
> Although not paying sufficient homage to the brilliant Umberto Eco, it would 
> seem that having good tool tips would matter for both the icons (which are 
> often quite tiny) and for accessibility reasons.  And the 
> internationalization of the tool tips may be rather important.

Without having read the article: Don't forget that we are not talking
about icons in general here, but about toolbar-buttons.

The "what does it do" question of course requires a tooltip, that is
not the question, but a toolbar-button has a much more important
meaning than the metaphor behind:
* It saves place.
* You can distinguish images much faster than you can distinguish text
* after a while you don't even have to distinguish icons anymore, you
remember the position anyway, since you use the function so often,
look at the toolbar all the time.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what the icon depicts unless you can
clearly distinguish it from the other ones. As mentioned: Even when
people don't recognize the save-icon as a floppy, but as a TV - they
don't have any problem with associating "When I click on that button,
the documents gets saved".

The floppy-icon has the benefit of being used in other applications as
well, so when they know how to save in wordpad using the toolbar,
they'll know how to save in LO using the toolbar.

> It would also be good that the default arrangement of the icons not change, 
> no matter what the symbols/images are.

Exactly. Or better: Changing both the appearance as well as the
arrangement at the same time is a big no-no.

ciao
Christian

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RE: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Although not paying sufficient homage to the brilliant Umberto Eco, it would 
seem that having good tool tips would matter for both the icons (which are 
often quite tiny) and for accessibility reasons.  And the internationalization 
of the tool tips may be rather important.

It would also be good that the default arrangement of the icons not change, no 
matter what the symbols/images are.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@openoffice.org] 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:21
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:
>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>> LibreOffice?
>
> When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
> http://iphonestudio.co.uk/images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.jpg
> Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
> modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'

Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should 
not necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look 
for words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but 
people can easily associate these icons to "Find".

For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine 
translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the 
famous writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".
http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.html

Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Henri Day]

2011/12/30 Andrea Pescetti 

> On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
>>>
>>
>> When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
>> http://iphonestudio.co.uk/**images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.**jpg
>> Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
>> modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'
>>
>
> Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should not
> necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look for
> words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but people can
> easily associate these icons to "Find".
>
> For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine
> translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the famous
> writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".
> http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/**staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.**html
>
> Regards,
>  Andrea.


As a counter to Professor Eco's brief - and as always in his case, witty
critique of icons, may I suggest that interested users test his conclusions
by launching Writer, clicking Tools and selecting Customise and then
Toolbars, clicking the Toolbar button and finally selecting «Text only». *
Pace* Professor Eco, but I suspect that all who do so will immediately
reselect «Icons only»

Henri

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:

Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
LibreOffice?


When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
http://iphonestudio.co.uk/images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.jpg
Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'


Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should 
not necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look 
for words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but 
people can easily associate these icons to "Find".


For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine 
translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the 
famous writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".

http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.html

Regards,
  Andrea.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Tony Pursell]

On 28 December 2011 19:43, Robert Derman wrote:

> Olav Dahlum wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>>> computer world.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
>> in governmental institutions.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
>> button to reflect the different media better.
>>
>>
> The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of
> course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I am
> not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more valid
> today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every case the
> document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much more
> difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this in
> Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As long as
> we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't matter that much
> that it is archaic.
>

Until I checked it out just now, I didn't realise that the Save icon used
in the Ubuntu version of LO is actually a broad green downward arrow on top
of a representation of a Hard drive.  Now, I have had no problems saving
documents, so I imagine that things like the position of the icon (next to
the Open File icon) and the tool tip are all part of identifying the Save
icon.  When I looked at the floppy disk icon on my wife's Win 7 version, I
realise how old fashioned it looks.

Tony

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Henri Day]

2011/12/28 Olav Dahlum 

> On 28/12/11 20:56, M Henri Day wrote:
> > 2011/12/28 Robert Derman 
> >
> >> Olav Dahlum wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
>  As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>  computer world.
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
> >>> in governmental institutions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>  Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button
> in
>  LibreOffice?
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
> >>> button to reflect the different media better.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of
> >> course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I
> am
> >> not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more valid
> >> today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every case the
> >> document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much more
> >> difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this in
> >> Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As
> long as
> >> we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't matter that
> much
> >> that it is archaic.
> >>
> >
> > What people recognise and what they recognise it as is a vexed issue ; my
> > experience in teaching retirees to use computers here in Stockholm is
> that
> > when I point to the floppy-disk icon and ask what it represents, the most
> > frequent reply I receive is «an old-fashioned TV». But I agree, replacing
> > this well-established icon with a new one would probably give rise to
> more
> > confusion than enlightenment
> >
> > Henri
> >
>
> The TV set approach was completely new to me …
>
> Olav
>

But not unreasonable, if one considers that many of these people were in
their formative years when TV came to Sweden (broadcasting started 1956).
The problem is that when I inform them that is meant to represent a floppy
disk, they have nothing on which to hang this observation, as they did not
use computers during the age of floppies and the computers they now
purchase no longer support them. They have hopped, as it were, directly
from analogue TV to DVDs and mobile phones that weigh an hectogram

Henri

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Olav Dahlum]

On 28/12/11 20:56, M Henri Day wrote:
> 2011/12/28 Robert Derman 
> 
>> Olav Dahlum wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>>
>>>
 As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
 computer world.


>>>
>>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
>>> in governmental institutions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
 Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
 LibreOffice?


>>>
>>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
>>> button to reflect the different media better.
>>>
>>>
>> The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of
>> course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I am
>> not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more valid
>> today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every case the
>> document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much more
>> difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this in
>> Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As long as
>> we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't matter that much
>> that it is archaic.
>>
> 
> What people recognise and what they recognise it as is a vexed issue ; my
> experience in teaching retirees to use computers here in Stockholm is that
> when I point to the floppy-disk icon and ask what it represents, the most
> frequent reply I receive is «an old-fashioned TV». But I agree, replacing
> this well-established icon with a new one would probably give rise to more
> confusion than enlightenment
> 
> Henri
> 

The TV set approach was completely new to me …

Olav

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RE: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I agree that the floppy symbol is well-understood as the Save icon.

 - Dennis

SOME MUSINGS

I use a text editor (jEdit) that has a different Save icon.  It is a curved 
downward arrow to what looks like a brick but which I now realize is a 
rectangular disk drive.  (I use the small icon set on my setup.)

The peculiarity is that the Open symbol is a file folder with a document 
sticking out of it.  If that had an up-arrow on the document, and the Save had 
a down-arrow on the document, the combination would make more sense.

However, the use of the folder con is also tied to the fact that there is a 
dialog involved (e.g., the into-folder case might be confused with Save As ...).

This appears to be an over-constrained problem.

-Original Message-
From: M Henri Day [mailto:mhenri...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:56
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

2011/12/28 Robert Derman 

> Olav Dahlum wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>>> computer world.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
>> in governmental institutions.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
>> button to reflect the different media better.
>>
>>
> The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of
> course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I am
> not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more valid
> today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every case the
> document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much more
> difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this in
> Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As long as
> we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't matter that much
> that it is archaic.
>

What people recognise and what they recognise it as is a vexed issue ; my
experience in teaching retirees to use computers here in Stockholm is that
when I point to the floppy-disk icon and ask what it represents, the most
frequent reply I receive is «an old-fashioned TV». But I agree, replacing
this well-established icon with a new one would probably give rise to more
confusion than enlightenment

Henri

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Henri Day]

2011/12/28 Robert Derman 

> Olav Dahlum wrote:
>
>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>>> computer world.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
>> in governmental institutions.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
>> button to reflect the different media better.
>>
>>
> The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of
> course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I am
> not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more valid
> today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every case the
> document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much more
> difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this in
> Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As long as
> we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't matter that much
> that it is archaic.
>

What people recognise and what they recognise it as is a vexed issue ; my
experience in teaching retirees to use computers here in Stockholm is that
when I point to the floppy-disk icon and ask what it represents, the most
frequent reply I receive is «an old-fashioned TV». But I agree, replacing
this well-established icon with a new one would probably give rise to more
confusion than enlightenment

Henri

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Robert Derman]

Olav Dahlum wrote:

On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
  

As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
computer world.



I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
in governmental institutions.

  

Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
LibreOffice?



Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
button to reflect the different media better.
  
The trouble is, most people would not recognize this, and there is of 
course the limitation that icons must be fairly simple in form.  Also I 
am not sure that an icon of an optical disk, which would be much more 
valid today would be as easily recognized.  Actually in nearly every 
case the document is being saved on a hard drive, but that would be much 
more difficult to represent as a simple icon.  I remember MS tried this 
in Win-95, and it ended up looking more like a drum and drumstick.  As 
long as we all recognize the floppy as a floppy, it really doesn't 
matter that much that it is archaic. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Olav Dahlum]

On 28/12/11 20:20, Olivier Hallot wrote:
> I think the issue is not the floppy disk media itself but the fact that
> floppy image is a very old icon, imprinted in the mind of hundreds of
> millions of persons as the Save icon.
> 
> Like changing traffic signs, I foresee a lot of troubles.

Yes, I agree. However, replacing it with something like an optical disc
(which is also imprinted in peoples minds, and could represent everything
from mechanical HDD plates to BlueRay) could be an idea. And there is still
an menu entry, shortcut and tooltips to guide people...

> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Em 28-12-2011 17:13, Olav Dahlum escreveu:
>> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>>> computer world.
> 
>> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
>> in governmental institutions.
> 
>>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
> 
>> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
>> button to reflect the different media better.
> 
>>>
>>> Best regards,
> 
>> – Olav
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Olivier Hallot]

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I think the issue is not the floppy disk media itself but the fact that
floppy image is a very old icon, imprinted in the mind of hundreds of
millions of persons as the Save icon.

Like changing traffic signs, I foresee a lot of troubles.

Kind regards

Em 28-12-2011 17:13, Olav Dahlum escreveu:
> On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
>> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
>> computer world.
> 
> I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
> in governmental institutions.
> 
>>
>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>> LibreOffice?
> 
> Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
> button to reflect the different media better.
> 
>>
>> Best regards,
> 
> – Olav
> 

- -- 
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
+55-21-8822-8812
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Olav Dahlum]

On 28/12/11 20:05, Danishka Navin wrote:
> As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
> computer world.

I'm afraid it's not the case, a lot of people use them, and especially
in governmental institutions.

> 
> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
> LibreOffice?

Anyway, this could be replaced by a more generic computer/down arrow
button to reflect the different media better.

> 
> Best regards,

– Olav

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[tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Danishka Navin]

As you all know the floppy disc is some thing out dated in the modern
computer world.

Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
LibreOffice?

Best regards,
-- 
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
http://www.flickr.com/photos/danishkanavin/

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