Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 05/12/2011 Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Whoever hit that trap: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7271 might probably think scary where to post, and where not. Well, that specific message is probably not a good example, since in the end it was more useful to the list than to me (the intended recipient)! Anyway, I'm happy that the configuration of this list won't change; thanks for listening. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Florian, *, Am 02.12.2011 18:45 schrieb Florian Effenberger: > Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-02 18:42: >> The question is, where to go regarding communication style. >> reply-to mangling hereby is*one* thing to look at. > just today, one of our admins replied again directly only to me. If I > didn't spot this, and replied again to the list, the valueable > information he posted would have been lost forever... Well, if You speak of lost contributions, You may consider also those thought, but finally not contributed. Whoever hit that trap: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7271 might probably think scary where to post, and where not. To make a long story short: I'd like to see that kind of issues handled different from "my reasons are more reasonable therefore I've to win the battle" - rather in a community way instead. The way You did it shows us: You *did* spot it and it was not lost forever! ;o)) Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-02 18:42: The question is, where to go regarding communication style. reply-to mangling hereby is*one* thing to look at. just today, one of our admins replied again directly only to me. If I didn't spot this, and replied again to the list, the valueable information he posted would have been lost forever... Florian -- Florian Effenberger Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Florian, *, Am 30.11.2011 09:31 schrieb Florian Effenberger: > NoOp wrote on 2011-11-30 05:02: [..] >> Better yet, try it on the dev list as this seems to be where the request >> is originating from. > That change is already in effect on the dev list, but I think it's not > comparable to other lists at LibO. :) Depends, *what* You compare. Regarding traffic it's one of the most active lists - yes: not comparable to any tdf list. Information is provided continuously in a very (high volume) reader friendly fashion - yes: not comparable to any tdf list. But in my eyes that's not the question. The question is, where to go regarding communication style. reply-to mangling hereby is *one* thing to look at. Gruß/regards Friedrich -- Friedrich Strohmaier - Admin team - The Document Foundation http://www.documentfoundation.org/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Regina, *, Am 30.11.2011 16:53 schrieb Regina Henschel: > Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb: > [..] >> No. This can happen if accidently a poster uses "reply to all" instead >> of "reply-to-list", without trimming the posters address. > I use Seamonkey and there I see nothing like "reply-to-list", there is > only (1)"Antwort auf dieses Nachricht" and (2)"Antwort an Absender and > alle Empfänger". > (1) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and to "from" in the other cases. > (2) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and CC "from" and other CCs, > or if "reply-to" is not set to "from" and CC other CCs. > So how to "reply-to-list"? If I recall well, there was an addon - at least for thunderbird in early days. But couldn't find somesuch during a quick search. As I don't use Seamonkey, I don't know if and where this funktion exists. The oldstyle Netscape/Thunderbird way was to use reply-to-all and trim the posters address. Maybe someone else can help. By the way: Adding information like that, was one part of my intention to improve the communication style info. Given $my_cool_software=Thunderbird; With $my_cool_software "reply-to-list" is offered for each mail containing a "list-post" -header so Your problem is solved if You just use $my_cool_software. ;o)) Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi Friedrich, Friedrich Strohmaier schrieb: [..] No. This can happen if accidently a poster uses "reply to all" instead of "reply-to-list", without trimming the posters address. I use Seamonkey and there I see nothing like "reply-to-list", there is only (1)"Antwort auf dieses Nachricht" and (2)"Antwort an Absender and alle Empfänger". (1) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and to "from" in the other cases. (2) generates a mail to "reply-to" if set and CC "from" and other CCs, or if "reply-to" is not set to "from" and CC other CCs. So how to "reply-to-list"? Kind regards Regina -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi NoOp, *, Am 30.11.2011 04:50 schrieb NoOp: > On 11/28/2011 08:23 AM, Michael Meeks wrote: [..] >> * make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get >>replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of >>operations. >> Where by a long list of operations, I mean, that in order to get a >> reply to your mail/question, first you need to: [.. trimmed the referenced paragraph ..] > You've obviously never spent time on the OOo user & discuss lists... [.. bad experience with above use case ..] > I subscribe to over 80 lists (via gmane.org) Using a nntp-client You are not affected by the change.. > and respond regularly to 10-15 daily. Were I required to adjust my > standard 'Reply' to specifically reply to the list rather than the > individual poster I'd have to make major modifications to my client > (SeaMonkey). Would You consider to do that change if You knew making life easier for *many* community co-members by doing so? Anyways - You don't have to ;o)) > I view and respond to a list, not to individual posters. There are so many pro and cons regarding that, how about having it most easy *for both sides* to follow their believing? > Further, the changes that you are requesting (if I understand them > correctly) You probably don't.. The change in question only concerns reverting the setting of the "reply-to: $list" header added by the mailinglist software to each message sent. > would mean that I'd then have an additional, direct email in > my inbox from each list poster when I've specifically chosen to view & > respond via an nntp source (gmane.org) rather than list email. No. This can happen if accidently a poster uses "reply to all" instead of "reply-to-list", without trimming the posters address. > Your request now places the burden on each list user to make changes > in order to avoid responding to the list poster and instead reply to > the list in general. No. Only those using "reply" instead of "reply-to-list" have to change their habits (which admittedly might cause some annoyance during the changing period). [.. general mailinglist access proposal ..] > If you wish to reply to each poster individually, then perhaps you can > modify Evolution 3.0.2 to conform to Reply and 'Reply All' to suit your > requirements. Thats the reason the change will be done: Make Your mail software work how it's intended to work, regardless which one. > -1 Wrong assumption? Gruß/regards Friedrich -- Friedrich Strohmaier - Admin team - The Document Foundation http://www.documentfoundation.org/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, NoOp wrote on 2011-11-30 05:02: I disagree. The moderators list is active, you guys post there regularly - try it on yourselves before creating a "why is this happening" panic on this list? Keep in mind that this list is also used by general users: well, I don't want to disable the current mangling at all - but if we want to evaluate the impact, I thought it make sense to do it on a larger list. A list with a few subscribers and basically no e-mails is not an ideal test object... But now it looks like the mangling change will only be relevant for a few lists, indeed. Better yet, try it on the dev list as this seems to be where the request is originating from. That change is already in effect on the dev list, but I think it's not comparable to other lists at LibO. :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 11/25/2011 02:19 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hi, > > FYI: It was not me asking for that change, nor Friedrich, but I'd like > to reply to this: > > NoOp wrote on 2011-11-25 23:11: >> Why not experiment with the moderators or test list instead? Why the >> discuss list? > > Because a real test can only work on a larger list, where we see the > impact... > > Florian > I disagree. The moderators list is active, you guys post there regularly - try it on yourselves before creating a "why is this happening" panic on this list? Keep in mind that this list is also used by general users: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ "discuss@documentfoundation.org: Mailing list for general discussions about The Document Foundation." Better yet, try it on the dev list as this seems to be where the request is originating from. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 11/28/2011 08:23 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 22:19 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote:
>> From my point of view, the mailing list is the sender.
>> When I hit the "Reply" button, this has to go back to the sender,
>> who sent that to me, which is the mailing list and not Regina.
>
> Sure sure. But you must get mail every day that is CC'd to several
> people. Surely you get to understand the difference between "Reply" and
> "Reply to all" ? the latter will keep the CC.
>
> At the end of the day, IMHO all this comes down to a simple choice:
>
> * make it easy for established list users to avoid having to
> think whom they want to reply to, and needing to press
> ctrl-shift-r vs. ctrl-r (or whatever)
> or
> * make it easy for new and peripherally involved users to get
> replies to their casual E-mails without doing a long list of
> operations.
>
> Where by a long list of operations, I mean, that in order to get a
> reply to your mail/question, first you need to:
>
> a) be clueful and know you havn't a chance of getting a reply
> b) send a mail to subscribe-foo@a.b.c
> c) wait for the reply
> d) confirm acceptance of mailing list
> e) while (time < max_time_wait_for_any_reply) {
> f) recieve mail, delete uninteresting messages
> g) read & respond to tiny minority of messages that
> are a reply to your query.
> h) } send a mail to unsuscribe-foo@a.b.c
> i) confirm un-subscribe from unsubscribe-foo@a.b.c
>
> In my view, most people fall down at a) - they just never appear to get
> a reply to their message. To ask someone to do steps b->i in order to
> interact with us is one that strangles community IMHO.
>
> HTH,
>
> Michael.
>
You've obviously never spent time on the OOo user & discuss lists...
I recommend leaving as is *and* requiring users to register when posting
to lists. We went through the 'non-registered' users issue on the OOo
user & discuss lists for years. Feel free to browse the OOo archives for
all the time wasted on attempting to respond to non-registered users
(including header filters w/bugs filed accordingly etc., etc). If you'd
like non-registered users to post on the dev list feel free to ask that
the change be made there (and use as a test bed), but please do not
modify the other lists.
I subscribe to over 80 lists (via gmane.org) and respond regularly to
10-15 daily. Were I required to adjust my standard 'Reply' to
specifically reply to the list rather than the individual poster I'd
have to make major modifications to my client (SeaMonkey). I view and
respond to a list, not to individual posters.
Further, the changes that you are requesting (if I understand them
correctly) would mean that I'd then have an additional, direct email in
my inbox from each list poster when I've specifically chosen to view &
respond via an nntp source (gmane.org) rather than list email. Your
request now places the burden on each list user to make changes in order
to avoid responding to the list poster and instead reply to the list in
general.
The simple solution is to require *all* posters to register/subscribe
prior to posting. In the process the prospective poster is warned that:
1) the post is public and subject to viewing by *anyone* with internet
access, 2) explain what an email list actually is, 3) how to view and
reply via alternate means instead of email (nabble, gmane.org, forums
etc), and 4) how to unsubscribe should they find that 'lists' aren't for
them. This helps to eliminate the "please remove my post from the
internet", "I'm going to sue you for posting my personal information",
"why am I getting flooded with these emails from you people", etc., and
the aggravation of those of use who do attempt to assist users on such
lists trying to figure out if the poster is registered/subscribed or not.
If you wish to reply to each poster individually, then perhaps you can
modify Evolution 3.0.2 to conform to Reply and 'Reply All' to suit your
requirements.
-1
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[tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 2011-11-25 3:19 PM Stefan Weigel wrote: Am 25.11.2011 19:43, schrieb Regina Henschel: I use Seamonkey for emails. All mailing lists I'm described to (and believe me that are a lot) behave in the way that a click on "Antwort auf diese Nachricht" replies to the list. So keep the documentfoundation.org lists to behave this way too. + 1 The message above was written by Regina. Regina sent it to the mailing list. I didn´t receive it from Regina, but I got it from the mailing list. From my point of view, the mailing list is the sender. When I hit the "Reply" button, this has to go back to the sender, who sent that to me, which is the mailing list and not Regina. :-) Ergo, please don´t change the behaviour. Stefan +1 Leave reply-to set to the mailing list. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
Hi, FYI: It was not me asking for that change, nor Friedrich, but I'd like to reply to this: NoOp wrote on 2011-11-25 23:11: Why not experiment with the moderators or test list instead? Why the discuss list? Because a real test can only work on a larger list, where we see the impact... Florian -- Florian Effenberger Board of Directors at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling
On 11/25/2011 02:00 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: > Regina Henschel wrote: >> All mailing lists I'm described to (and >> believe me that are a lot) behave in the way that a click on "Antwort >> auf diese Nachricht" replies to the list. So keep the >> documentfoundation.org lists to behave this way too. >> Only @lists.freedesktop.org behave not that way and that is very >> annoying. It results in accidentally sending only private answers > > Same for me. A mailing list, to me, is a group of people discussing > together and transparently. When I answer a mailing list message, I'm > speaking to everybody in the group and I expect this to be the default > behaviour. +1 > >> If you really consider to change it, please let the [sub]scribers vote on it. > > Converting only one list, especially a "-discuss" list, seems a > confusing move. At least, if one can separate behaviour by domain (i.e., > freedesktop.org lists and documentfoundation.org/libreoffice.org lists), > it takes less effort to remember when a reply should be addressed > differently. > > However, it seems the "experiment" has been decided so let's go on, even > though I believe that nobody will change his preferences after the > experiment, so a preliminary poll would likely yield the same results. > > Regards, >Andrea. > Why not experiment with the moderators or test list instead? Why the discuss list? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
