Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hello Mike, Le samedi 17 janvier 2015 à 22:02 +, Mike Hall a écrit : On 21/12/2014 13:18, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? Users do not dictate what developers do. That's not how Free and Open Source Software works, as the culture change entails that users would tell developers and contributors what to do. What would be the incentive for anyone to do that? I have a day job. Many others do. Why would I receive directives from random people?:-) At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. Users are users. They get rights from the software freedom conveyed by the licenses we use. They do not get anything else, unless they want to become contributors. Anything else is toxic for the community and profoundly demotivational (btw: we have ten years of experience on that inside OpenOffice.org) To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. How about: Everyone is welcome: see how you can become involved today! Otherwise you keep on having this distinction where users are not encouraged to become contributors. OK, I can spend some time on this now and will work though the design group as suggested. Thanks! This is really appreciated and perhaps more that you could guess. (See my other answer specifically on the design list). Only answering your points below for now... I'm still keen on a 'users first' approach and an acceptance that users are 'in' the community by virtue of being users. It's semantic I suppose, since in some sense users are clearly part of the wider LO community. Yes indeed. The idea actually comes from my local hospital, which has the byline 'patients first' on all its correspondence and documentation. The patient is considered to be part of the team rather than someone to whom things are done. In my personal experience it makes a huge difference to how 'users' feel. It doesn't though make much difference to medical processes and treatment. So, by a similar analogy, I don't see why you would expect a 'users first' approach to change current processes significantly. BUT, in my view there is a considerable potential upside because it will make the user feel more valued, it will make the step to deeper involvement seem smaller even though in practice it's just the same, and it will probably make it slightly more likely that users will take that step, which is what we all want. I understand that it might seem threatening having thought about the relationship in a different way for 10 years. I expect hospital staff felt the same when the idea was first floated there, and their history is much longer than that. So, I plan to draft stuff along 'user first' lines and see how it looks. If it still seems too awful, it will no doubt get changed before implementation. Sorry for not having been clear. I meant that we spent 10 years practicing the Putting users first way and we got bad results; if anything Free Software projects do not work well with this notion. The fear we were mentioning is based on something we witnessed before: instead of encouragement (which I understand is what you're betting on) we develop a sense of entitlement while at the same time discouraging contributors. Going back on what you would like to do in terms of design: this is important as we are constantly interested in gaining new contributors out of users. So what you're doing could be quite helpful and useful. Looking forward tot this! Best, Charles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
On 21/12/2014 13:18, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? Users do not dictate what developers do. That's not how Free and Open Source Software works, as the culture change entails that users would tell developers and contributors what to do. What would be the incentive for anyone to do that? I have a day job. Many others do. Why would I receive directives from random people?:-) At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. Users are users. They get rights from the software freedom conveyed by the licenses we use. They do not get anything else, unless they want to become contributors. Anything else is toxic for the community and profoundly demotivational (btw: we have ten years of experience on that inside OpenOffice.org) To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. How about: Everyone is welcome: see how you can become involved today! Otherwise you keep on having this distinction where users are not encouraged to become contributors. OK, I can spend some time on this now and will work though the design group as suggested. I'm still keen on a 'users first' approach and an acceptance that users are 'in' the community by virtue of being users. It's semantic I suppose, since in some sense users are clearly part of the wider LO community. The idea actually comes from my local hospital, which has the byline 'patients first' on all its correspondence and documentation. The patient is considered to be part of the team rather than someone to whom things are done. In my personal experience it makes a huge difference to how 'users' feel. It doesn't though make much difference to medical processes and treatment. So, by a similar analogy, I don't see why you would expect a 'users first' approach to change current processes significantly. BUT, in my view there is a considerable potential upside because it will make the user feel more valued, it will make the step to deeper involvement seem smaller even though in practice it's just the same, and it will probably make it slightly more likely that users will take that step, which is what we all want. I understand that it might seem threatening having thought about the relationship in a different way for 10 years. I expect hospital staff felt the same when the idea was first floated there, and their history is much longer than that. So, I plan to draft stuff along 'user first' lines and see how it looks. If it still seems too awful, it will no doubt get changed before implementation. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hi Mike, you wrote: I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. [snip] Thanks for your very constructive approach here! As Charles mentions, the next step would be to hammer out a final version of your draft on the design list: To subscribe e-mail to: design+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Just subscribe forward your proposal, it's an excellent start. (and I fully agree with the implied strategy here, which is not to grant any moral entitlement to every user, by the mere fact of her using LibreOffice. Instead, we need to improve on our efforts to encourage participation) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
From a user's point of view as well as one who helps whenever possible, I'm drawn to respond to this, (see comments below in [ ] ) From: Timofonic timofo...@gmail.com Date: Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 2:08 PM Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation? To: discuss@documentfoundation.org discuss@documentfoundation.org Hello. I think we (users) sometimes fail to connect with developers' mindset. [use proper grammar, continue to ask - re-phrasing - until the one who you wish to respond understands the problem(s)] Due to our lack of technical knowledge and often a lack of discipline, our feedback isn't enough interesting for them and we sometimes feel quite ignored. In the end, we the users try (emphasis here, we know what we want but how how we want it and commonly fail to explain it properly) to explain our needs and what we think it should be improved from a different POV. [lack of discipline ??? ... just what are you attempting to say in this paragraph?] I tried to explain my education-related issues and needs, such as inserting formulas in a Libreoffice Writer document (I find it needs to support boolean stuff like xor symbols and some other improvements). I know there's limited resources, but I think maybe corporate needs are becoming too heavy and other areas like education are underrated. What about a lot more non-profit organizations becoming part of BoD? [1 - the writer document is just that; I think what you're seeking may be the spreadsheat or calculator portion of LO; 2 - LO is not a corporation; what are attempting to ask/say?; 3 - what is BoD?] I also had some weird bugs (or unintended software behavior) when writing large texts, but I often forget to note them (and unable to explain a way to reproduce it) because I'm in a hurry and was lazy too. [are you saying you've asked for help yet were unable to explain the problem then became upset because no one was able to help you solve this unknown problem? - well, as for me - and I'm sure others on this list - if I see a post to which I know naught, I merely skip it.] Maybe different specific associations should be part of BoD and user feedback be taken more seriously in a less marketeer way but more scientific and social. [huh ???] Regards. El 19 de diciembre de 2014 14:38:15 CET, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com escribió: Inspired by this and some other similar conversations, here's my thought: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2860074/open-source-software/become-an-open-source-software-tester.html S. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
On 16/12/2014 09:37, Thorsten Behrens wrote: As such, we're crucially relying on feedback from our users (and Charles pointed out the many ways to collect it) -- but just in the aggregate. Collectively, our user base provides tremendous value to us, by marketing to peers, reporting bugs, voting with their feet, donating money etc. The individual user though -- on average -- contributes just tiny amounts. So the big picture looks pretty much like Charles' tongue-in-cheek 'almost zero'. I'm also late responding to what seemed originally to be a genuine attempt by Nino to seek ways of enhancing end user feedback. Although I agree the necessary mechanisms are in place, his input is evidence that it can be hard for users to appreciate this. It can seem that developments and discussions are for the benefit of the 'in' team and not for the majority who are not involved other than as users. Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. As a user, you inevitably have responsibilities: - enjoy the advantages of LO - learn to use the LO effectively - keep your version up-to-date - make an occasional donation, however small, perhaps when you upgrade - tell your friends about your experience You are most welcome to become more involved: [ followed by a reformatted version of the Help Send Feedback page] [new 'Users 1st' logo] == -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hi Nino, Nino Novak wrote on 19-12-14 09:43: In my eyes, users - yes, simple users - make a significant contribution when they just choose to use LibreOffice. Sort of, yes. But the interesting point is how to involve users in a meaningful way in the process of building/testing/translating/promoting LibreOffice. I remember from your initial post that you suggested to have some user-representative bringing forward the opinion of the users: _the_ opinion of _the_ users... I expect that this will simply port the problem to a different place: how are you going to make sure there that all ideas from all people are handled (evenly) and that all users feel awarded?? IMO the most simple is where we are now: a user with an idea/remark/finding can bring that in Bugzilla or at a/the mail list first if he seeks help from someone else. Any idea has a equal chance on positive attention, but of course depending on various aspects, such as the energy put into it to work it out properly and in detail. Regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hi Mike, Mike Hall wrote on 21-12-14 13:41: To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. It's an idea that seems OK to me. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. As a user, you inevitably have responsibilities: - enjoy the advantages of LO - learn to use the LO effectively - keep your version up-to-date I would be very careful to label this as a responsibility. - make an occasional donation, however small, perhaps when you upgrade Same here - tell your friends about your experience Same here .. But that might all be because English is not my native language and I have a different feeling with that word 'responsibility' ? You are most welcome to become more involved: [ followed by a reformatted version of the Help Send Feedback page] [new 'Users 1st' logo] == Cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hello Mike, Le Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:41:05 +, Mike Hall mike.h...@onepoyle.net a écrit : On 16/12/2014 09:37, Thorsten Behrens wrote: As such, we're crucially relying on feedback from our users (and Charles pointed out the many ways to collect it) -- but just in the aggregate. Collectively, our user base provides tremendous value to us, by marketing to peers, reporting bugs, voting with their feet, donating money etc. The individual user though -- on average -- contributes just tiny amounts. So the big picture looks pretty much like Charles' tongue-in-cheek 'almost zero'. I'm also late responding to what seemed originally to be a genuine attempt by Nino to seek ways of enhancing end user feedback. I read Nino's words as being emphatically not about enhancing user feedback... :-) Although I agree the necessary mechanisms are in place, his input is evidence that it can be hard for users to appreciate this. It can seem that developments and discussions are for the benefit of the 'in' team and not for the majority who are not involved other than as users. Pardon me but I am not a developer. I do not claim to understand code; I do not claim to understand a third or half of what the Engineering Steering Committee writes in its meeting minutes (but I understand the other parts); we are many contributors in this situation. But we also have users who simply do not accept that they are using something which is not a product, and that they can make the software as much as anybody else. The underlying idea here is that not only is LibreOffice not a product, it is also not a project that works according to users wishes if these are only wishes... see more comments inline. Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? Users do not dictate what developers do. That's not how Free and Open Source Software works, as the culture change entails that users would tell developers and contributors what to do. What would be the incentive for anyone to do that? I have a day job. Many others do. Why would I receive directives from random people? :-) At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. Users are users. They get rights from the software freedom conveyed by the licenses we use. They do not get anything else, unless they want to become contributors. Anything else is toxic for the community and profoundly demotivational (btw: we have ten years of experience on that inside OpenOffice.org) To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. How about: Everyone is welcome: see how you can become involved today! Otherwise you keep on having this distinction where users are not encouraged to become contributors. As a user, you inevitably have responsibilities: - enjoy the advantages of LO - learn to use the LO effectively - keep your version up-to-date - make an occasional donation, however small, perhaps when you upgrade - tell your friends about your experience I like these lines above. You are most welcome to become more involved: [ followed by a reformatted version of the Help Send Feedback page] How about bring the feedback link in the above list, and where you have: You are most welcome to become involved: put the link to: https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ Because that one is for everyone as well? Next step, if you wish, is to bring this to our Design team (mailing list, whiteboard, etc.) Thanks! Charles. [new 'Users 1st' logo] == You are missing all these links here -- Charles-H. Schulz Co-founder, The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems?
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hello Tim, On 20 décembre 2014 21:08:46 CET, Timofonic timofo...@gmail.com wrote: Hello. I think we (users) sometimes fail to connect with developers' mindset. Due to our lack of technical knowledge and often a lack of discipline, our feedback isn't enough interesting for them and we sometimes feel quite ignored. I believe it is important to stress that you do not have to be a developer to be a LibreOffice contributor and TDF member. I am not a developer and there are many non technical areas for users to engage in. All it takes is some moderate effort. In the end, we the users try (emphasis here, we know what we want but how how we want it and commonly fail to explain it properly) to explain our needs and what we think it should be improved from a different POV. Keep in mind that what users want are many different things , and sometimes they are contradictory. I tried to explain my education-related issues and needs, such as inserting formulas in a Libreoffice Writer document (I find it needs to support boolean stuff like xor symbols and some other improvements). I have not read about your needs on LibreOffice but I do not think your needs are equally shared by every other user. I know there's limited resources, but I think maybe corporate needs are becoming too heavy and other areas like education are underrated. What makes you think that? What about a lot more non-profit organizations becoming part of BoD? You mean our AdvisoryBoard? We are open :-) I also had some weird bugs (or unintended software behavior) when writing large texts, but I often forget to note them (and unable to explain a way to reproduce it) because I'm in a hurry and was lazy too. Maybe different specific associations should be part of BoD and user feedback be taken more seriously in a less marketeer way but more scientific and social. Actually we try to be really serious with user feedback. You seem to think that we somehow go away with marketing sound bytes (as a marketing contributor should I feel flattered?) and that corporate greed is slowly taking over. I for one would hate to have TDF being some sort of storefront for businesses making their bucks on individual users. In reality numbers tell a completely different story: TDF budget relies for about a seventh on corporate donations and this share used to be much more important in the past. Individual donors or small businesses are our the bulk of the donations. However, there's still this ongoing lack of understanding coming from some users about what TDF does and is. We are nothing without volunteers. Volunteers can be users but they are contributors. They are not customers nor people who feel entitled to give their opinion against, well, nothing. Volunteers are not always developers, far from that. But volunteers donate time and effort. We do not work without them. If you (I may be wrong) never filed a bug report, helped on the documentation, or on our user interface design, on quality assurance, on marketing, etc. Then your voice will not get heard and you may end up with the feeling that things just work without your input. But then this works just like many other things in life. Cheers, Charles. Regards. El 19 de diciembre de 2014 14:38:15 CET, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com escribió: Inspired by this and some other similar conversations, here's my thought: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2860074/open-source-software/become-an-open-source-software-tester.html S. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Inspired by this and some other similar conversations, here's my thought: http://www.infoworld.com/article/2860074/open-source-software/become-an-open-source-software-tester.html S. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Nino Novak wrote: Am 05.12.2014 um 18:42 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: At zero. Seriously very little value. And this is also why LibreOffice just like most other FOSS is available free of charge. Ok, I see your attitude. For me, every single user of LibreOffice is an appreciated contributor. He contributes a lot of his time, he takes the risk of using something different from the well-known, he invests a lot of nerves to get his tasks done as many things work differently. Hi Nino, all, sorry for being late to this discussion, but the above dichotomy appears much larger than it is in reality. So I feel tempted to set things right a little bit. ;) I think we all agree that every LibreOffice user is valued, and we very much appreciate them using our software -- at the end of the day, we're producing software _for_ our end users. As such, we're crucially relying on feedback from our users (and Charles pointed out the many ways to collect it) -- but just in the aggregate. Collectively, our user base provides tremendous value to us, by marketing to peers, reporting bugs, voting with their feet, donating money etc. The individual user though -- on average -- contributes just tiny amounts. So the big picture looks pretty much like Charles' tongue-in-cheek 'almost zero'. Turning users into TDF contributors is the constant challenge that we face, and we're very open to novel ideas here. But one of TDF's founding principles is meritocracy - so unless someone actively engages with the community, there cannot be representation. Which is not a problem IMO, since the User Experience project (which is, as everywhere, always happy to get new volunteers!) is precisely there to look after user needs. So if there's the impression that we don't care enough for our users, that's where future efforts (and contribution) needs to go! But I accept that our views differ significantly, and as far as I can see, there's no room for convergence left. So we can stop our discussion at this point. I'm sorry you got this impression. I hope I could clarify a bit. Cheers, -- Thorsten -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
Hello Nino, On 5 décembre 2014 17:13:09 CET, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: Hi Charles, thanks for your reply :) Am 05.12.2014 um 15:30 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Le 05.12.2014 11:37, Nino Novak a écrit : Hi, AFAICS, TDF does not have any formal Joe Average user lobby. There are BoD, ESC, MC, AB - but the end user community only can send their opinions, needs and ideas to mailing lists or speak up informally in meetings. Yes... why is that a problem? :-) the bodies you mentioned are bodies that are formed out of people or entities contributing something to the project. This is not per se a problem, but here, the problem starts. You really seem to believe that somebody just using LibreOffice does not contribute anything. In my eyes, everybody downloading the software and starting to use it, *does* contribute. At least their time :-) For me this is somehow obvious. For me and others it is not. Contributors contributing time and users downloading the software are really different in their efforts. Making this distinction has allowed us to grow our community and our project in ways few people could think imaginable. The old OpenOffice.org project did not really make that distinction by the way and it was one of the factors that demotivated many actual and potential contributors. So my concern might come out of need of better appreciation of the simple user. In my eyes, they are part of the community, too - but without a voice, without a saying. Is this, what TDF stands for? TDF stands for its constant effort in building a great community who produces great software. Somewhere along the line wwe are happy to have LibreOffice be used by dozens of millions. They can have a voice through feedback and support channels. Not as contributors. What about the idea of creating e.g. a User Interest Commitee (or board), which has an advisory role - similar to the AB? Could this help to better channelize / make visible the interests of normal users? This is a valid concern; so far we have options for feedback that are summarized here: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/ but maybe we could check if these carry out the right information in an acceptable time. What I'm giving here is also feedback ;-) There are highly competent people around in mailing lists and forums, who, at least to my believe, should be given a stronger voice than to just send a mail to a list. Sure, they can contribute anything from bug reports to marketing materials, website bits, localizations, to code. See above - how much do you value contributing by just using the software? At zero. Seriously very little value. And this is also why LibreOffice just like most other FOSS is available free of charge. (I know, the big hurdle is to do it, but nevertheless wanted to express what I think/feel here as a starting point).* What TDF has refrained from doing is precisely let the impression that if someone wants something, some developer will autmatically do it. Strange kind of thinking... I can't believe that TDF is gouverned by the fear of promising unrealistic dreams :-) :-) it is not governed by that. But it has learned its lessons from the past. My concern in contrast is that the project thus neglects a whole bunch of good will, possibliy good ideas, and potentially clever opinions. And in addition, maybe, also fruitful dialogs. We believe users can become contributors, and as such we try really hard to ensure anyone can join the project and its activities (but of course this can be improved!). However, advices for free is not something TDF and the project in general is interested in. Did you have a different process in mind? What would this user committee do specifically? Good question. A couple of answers... Appreciate the (needs of the) users... Listen to them... Give them a formal voice... Show officially that every single LibreOffice user is a valued contributor and per se member of the community (however not a formal member, sure, as formal members have kind of an access threshold which I do not question). Actually they don't. Members form the foundation but they do not have a priviledged access. Members decide on TDF and the way to become a member is by contributing. It's probably indeed a question of appreciation. And of valuing a large group of small contributors. Something like that. However, I still don't know if it's a good idea. That's the reason I put it here for discussion: from my gut feeling it would sound good to have one (or a few) User Interest Representatives in one of the commitees/boards/whatever. Their duty could be to give their opinion to questions from the UX or ESC or QA (like should this button be renamed So UX is really easy to join and so is QA. But aside polling people I think the real question would then be: how do we turn users into contributors? or not? or what default value should this option have? or something
