Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
That is excellent feedback. Thank you. Most of our straight-forward form labels (on web sites, not software) are still in title case (First Name is easier to read and doesn't take up as much space as What is your first name), while more complex labels are in the form of questions. Courtney Jordan -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of Jim Drew Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 4:37 PM To: UI List Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Possibly missed in this thread is the origin question. Rather than Should I use a colon or not?, ask instead Why did we used to always use colons? My thought is that it tied in with Labels Use Title Case. The label plus the field or control content made a Title: Subtitle comb. The colon wasn't there just by chance; it was there to signal the end of the Title part, or the division between the two. Today, much software no long uses Title Case. Labels tend to be more sentence like in their structure, with the field or control content being the predicate or object of the sentence: Choice for President: [John McCain] ... has become My choice for President is [Barack Obama] A colon is incorrect grammar in the new style of label; if anything, there should be a trailing period, but that would truly be visual noise (and would usually not sit just after the sentence predicate). So I would say to use a colon if your labels are in Title Case, and not to use one if they are not. (And if they are in Title Case, ask the question why your label design seems stuck in the 1990s. There may be a deeper issue to examine.) (Discussion of why Title Case was used -- and when it might still be best -- is another thread.) -- Jim Drew UI/UX Software Tester Seattle, WA Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Hi Chauncey, Thank you for your feedback - I was hoping you would! These are just form labels like First Name: textbox - rather than First Name text box. My feeling has been that the colon serves as an indicator as well. In that case, they wouldn't be non-data ink a la Tufte, as they serve a purpose. Courtney From: Chauncey Wilson [mailto:chauncey.wil...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:25 PM To: Jordan, Courtney Cc: disc...@ixda.org Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Hello Courtney, The colon issue is one of the classic debates in UI design and it has raged since the early 1990s. I generally agree with Caroline, but if you have fields that are read-only with no 3D appearance, the colon can serve as an indicator that some text will follow. The colon serves to differentiate label from text (since in some cases there may be no text by the label and the label will look like a lost piece of text). Another consideration is whether you are following the particular style. I believe that the Vista guidelines call for a colon so if you are following Vista, you might want to follow that style. Chauncey On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jordan, Courtney cjor...@bbandt.com wrote: Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? Thanks in advance, Courtney Jordan Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. In this case, I definitely feel colons are justified: they serve a purpose, thus they are not non-data ink; they provide a structure and an expectation of what is coming up next (a textbox) which further contributes to the concept of them being data ink, and aesthetically, I feel that they make the form look more professional and complete. Obviously, there are those that disagree with me, and I appreciate all of your great feedback! Courtney -Original Message- From: Caroline Jarrett [mailto:caroline.jarr...@effortmark.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:13 PM To: Jordan, Courtney; disc...@ixda.org Subject: RE: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Subject: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? You have accurately summarised my article: http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3112.asp As Luke doesn't mention colons, maybe we should add and not even a lot of them to the end of the summary :-) But maybe you missed the follow-up one? http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3200.asp That discussed the problem of screen readers and colons at the end of labels. So far as I have been able to find out since then, it used to be the case in the Olden Days that screen readers relied on colons as a cue about where the label might be. These days, they rely more on the actual mark-up. So provided that you are using label tags appropriately, the screen reader doesn't need the colon. The user may or may not hear 'colon' depending on whether the screen reader is set up to read the punctuation. My suggestion: estimate how long it would take to take all the colons off the existing forms. Ask your copy people if they truly wish to put that time in, compared to all the other cool/useful/revenue-earning (delete as applicable) things that you could be doing. Might help them to make a decision. Best Caroline Jarrett Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
copying my response back to the list... On Feb 12, 2009 8:20 AM, Christopher James Calo chris.c...@gmail.com wrote: I don't have much experience with screen readers, but I think more semantic means of communicating label-field connection are preferred. The label element's for attribute and the aria labeledby attribute are designed for this very purpose. In my minimalist opinion, colons are non-data ink (that is, they contribute to distracting the eye and don't offer any useful information). So I agree with your copy dept and LukeW: throw them out. Tell me if you need more info on those attributes. Cheers, Chris On Feb 11, 2009 1:20 PM, jor...@otto.dreamhost.com wrote: Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? Thanks in advance, Courtney Jordan Reply to this thread at ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=38531 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Every element on a screen is visual noise. Less noise means less information the brain has to process (it's called cognitive load). We don't use colons in any application or transaction process we design for that very reason. If it's not necessary, we simply leave it out. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: t...@messagefirst.com AIM:twar...@mac.com Blog: http://toddwarfel.com Twitter:zakiwarfel -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
No colons. They are unnecessary. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=38531 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Possibly missed in this thread is the origin question. Rather than Should I use a colon or not?, ask instead Why did we used to always use colons? My thought is that it tied in with Labels Use Title Case. The label plus the field or control content made a Title: Subtitle comb. The colon wasn't there just by chance; it was there to signal the end of the Title part, or the division between the two. Today, much software no long uses Title Case. Labels tend to be more sentence like in their structure, with the field or control content being the predicate or object of the sentence: Choice for President: [John McCain] ... has become My choice for President is [Barack Obama] A colon is incorrect grammar in the new style of label; if anything, there should be a trailing period, but that would truly be visual noise (and would usually not sit just after the sentence predicate). So I would say to use a colon if your labels are in Title Case, and not to use one if they are not. (And if they are in Title Case, ask the question why your label design seems stuck in the 1990s. There may be a deeper issue to examine.) (Discussion of why Title Case was used -- and when it might still be best -- is another thread.) -- Jim Drew UI/UX Software Tester Seattle, WA Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? Thanks in advance, Courtney Jordan Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Subject: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? You have accurately summarised my article: http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3112.asp As Luke doesn't mention colons, maybe we should add and not even a lot of them to the end of the summary :-) But maybe you missed the follow-up one? http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3200.asp That discussed the problem of screen readers and colons at the end of labels. So far as I have been able to find out since then, it used to be the case in the Olden Days that screen readers relied on colons as a cue about where the label might be. These days, they rely more on the actual mark-up. So provided that you are using label tags appropriately, the screen reader doesn't need the colon. The user may or may not hear 'colon' depending on whether the screen reader is set up to read the punctuation. My suggestion: estimate how long it would take to take all the colons off the existing forms. Ask your copy people if they truly wish to put that time in, compared to all the other cool/useful/revenue-earning (delete as applicable) things that you could be doing. Might help them to make a decision. Best Caroline Jarrett Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Hi Courtney, Another thing to consider is internationalization. We abandoned the use of field label colons for string replacement as it pertains to internationalization. For example, in languages like Arabic that read right to left, it looks strange to have a colon placed at what becomes the beginning of the label. (I know, the whole page layout should be re-oriented, but many times that is not in the cards, resource-wise.) If you're already using label tags appropriately, there's probably a way to strip out the colons programatically so you don't waste time doing this manually. Hope this helps! Kind regards, Angel Anderson On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Caroline Jarrett caroline.jarr...@effortmark.co.uk wrote: Subject: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? You have accurately summarised my article: http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3112.asp As Luke doesn't mention colons, maybe we should add and not even a lot of them to the end of the summary :-) But maybe you missed the follow-up one? http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3200.asp That discussed the problem of screen readers and colons at the end of labels. So far as I have been able to find out since then, it used to be the case in the Olden Days that screen readers relied on colons as a cue about where the label might be. These days, they rely more on the actual mark-up. So provided that you are using label tags appropriately, the screen reader doesn't need the colon. The user may or may not hear 'colon' depending on whether the screen reader is set up to read the punctuation. My suggestion: estimate how long it would take to take all the colons off the existing forms. Ask your copy people if they truly wish to put that time in, compared to all the other cool/useful/revenue-earning (delete as applicable) things that you could be doing. Might help them to make a decision. Best Caroline Jarrett Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
In the spirit of reducing the number of non-essential design element, I nix (kill) colons in user interfaces. Your copy dept is coming from a totally different perspective in this matter and for once they are right ;) The best resource I have seen of late is from the iPhone User Interface Design video. In this video, the UX guy from Apple says in plain english that colons are unnecessary in the UI for any platform. You will need an Apple ID to access the video in iTunes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=38531 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] To use a colon or not to use a colon after field labels
Hello Courtney, The colon issue is one of the classic debates in UI design and it has raged since the early 1990s. I generally agree with Caroline, but if you have fields that are read-only with no 3D appearance, the colon can serve as an indicator that some text will follow. The colon serves to differentiate label from text (since in some cases there may be no text by the label and the label will look like a lost piece of text). Another consideration is whether you are following the particular style. I believe that the Vista guidelines call for a colon so if you are following Vista, you might want to follow that style. Chauncey On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jordan, Courtney cjor...@bbandt.comwrote: Could anyone help me on the subject of whether to use colons after field labels. I have found one accessibility paper and a few other not-so-respected sources that indicate that colons after field labels help screen reader users, as well as normal vision users, to expect an input field. However, after years of including colons after field labels, our copy dept now maintains that a colon is punctuation and shouldn't be included after field labels. I've also found Jarrett's, No one cares about colons but UX people and Luke W doesn't mention it in his book :(. Has anyone fought this battle before? Do you have any sources that you could point me to? Thanks in advance, Courtney Jordan Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
