Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
On 26.04.2008 08:44, Cameron Shorter wrote: Ravi, What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents. This has been done somewhat. You might find it interesting reading. --Wolf Original Message Subject: Re: [GRASS-user] [Fwd: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS Tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?] Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:13:49 +0200 From: Markus Metz To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Todd Buchanan compared GRASS and ArcGIS in his master thesis (Geoscience / GIS): Title: Thesis – Comparison of ArcGIS 9.0 and GRASS 6.0: Case Study and Implementation. · Detailed costs and benefits of each GIS and included a comparison of acquisition, installation, implementation, and utilization. · Involved Landsat image classification and analysis of urbanization of Eugene, OR. You can get the thesis here: http://www.toddbuchanan.net/thesis_ver.pdf The thesis used GRASS 6.0 and GRASS became even better since then:-) I would not agree with TB's statement of technical support being virtually non-existent, because you get answers quickly in the mailing lists. I hope that helps, Markus Metz -- :3 ) Wolf Bergenheim ( 8: ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Hi Cameron, the table of comparison is informative. Most of the ARC-GIS users (my personal view) are Vector GIS users. They are concerned of 1. Registration of Paper maps into GIS 2. Attribution 3. Analysis depending on their need. CAD 4. Outputs of the above are also to be plotted in elegant maps with proper symbology and standard colors. As an OSGeo enthusiast I recommend a cocktail of OS GIS software mix. OpenJUMP and Qgis for steps Qgis 1 to 3 Qgis and GRASS for advanced analysis GRASS for statistical analysis with R OpenJUMP and Inkscape for step 4. As a geologist I get oriented structures properly symbolised and rotated (possible in OpenJUMP) Am making some notes and soon wish to offer for downloading through GRASS and OpenJUMP websites. Ravi Kumar Cameron Shorter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ravi, What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents. What is it about ArcView and ArcGIS that people really like, listed feature by feature in a table. Then identify whether Open Source covers it and how. Very important is to address usability. How quickly can an Arc* user migrate to Open Source? My skill set is lacking here as I don't have much experience in either ESRI or the Open Source desktop tools. It seems like you have experience with both which puts you in a unique position. Is this something you, or one of your students would like to investigate further? Maybe build a table similar to this one: http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/Desktopgis_overview.htm RAVI KUMAR wrote: Hi, this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising OS GIS. ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of tools, which almost distance the user from understanding the concept of GIS. Auto Complete Polygon: In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut polygon', do try and find the difference. Polygonising from lines: Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches. Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software automatically creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces) The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose. GRASS GIS: It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the commercial GIS need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part of GRASS is robust too. Ravi Kumar */Markus Neteler /* wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, George R. C. Silva wrote: ... One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S. software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc - btw, if you do, let me know). FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options. We are working on that: http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer Screenshots: http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php - wxPython (new GUI) You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday): http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with *installer* at http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x Enjoy Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
Hi, IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this point out. I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications, which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago! This new users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database. So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface, powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of OS GIS software. Just my opinion. Malte PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Comparison between Proprietary and OS
Here's another slightly different point of view... I like the fact that many open source projects haven't been focused on targeting users of particular brands of software. It has allowed the projects to develop to be what the developers think they should be, without a constant check like Have we arrived yet to challenge vendor X's package with 100% features?. While I understand the need to compare OSS with popular proprietary apps, for the sake of helping other users migrate, I think it is important to remember that open source programs don't always specifically target replacing them. This can lead to thinking that proprietary apps have some special combination of tools, usability and functions that must be mimicked - but its a subtle shift to just focus on user needs instead of on how to do a 100% feature match to some other standard. It doesn't mean, of course, that some other package has a bunch of features worth implementing, but I think our standards should be (1) user need and (2) developer interest - without either of those a project is bloated or dead. We likely all know proprietary software that has features that cost a lot but that are ones you never use or care about. Let's not make the same mistake. I know we aren't, but thought you might find this viewpoint interesting to consider. Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Comparison between Proprietary and OS
Hi, This brings to mind an additional point. Even though OS GIS tends to be a patchwork of projects that demand a good deal of experience from its users, it also gives you infinite extensibility. From a business perspective, this affords a proficient user of OS the ability to exploit automated workflow processes. Many use cases involve repetitive drudge work that can be automated if you have access to the code and/or knowledge of scripting. This is often possible with commercial products too, but OS usually has more hooks to feed a workflow and you can resort to the code if required. Since we are in the internet era, workflows tend to get pushed further out into the cloud which is why WPS has a lot of promise and means that the push button= result will be mandatory. The public use of GIS workflow demands simplicity, possibly over simplicity. randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andre Grobler Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:39 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Comparison between Proprietary and OS I'm very new at OS, have worked 10 years on AV3.x and a little Idrisi, but only from a vegetation point of view, so we're talking basic end-user digitizer mapper (and georef images), bit of topographical modeling and extracting underlying information. I wanted to do OS when starting my own company, but time constraints had me take a loan to get Windows Office and ArcView, just because I knew what I would get, and be able to get up and running on it within a week. I now realize most of the things I need to do in day to day, I could do in OS Q-GIS albeit with a little less sleekness. But I could not risk letting work slide (or causing clients, who use ESRI, hassles) to get up and running in Q-GIS, GRASS and possibly OSSIM. So the hurdles for me to OS were acceptance specifically for the following reasons: Free and easy access and training of ESRI at varsity. Autocad did the same and look where that got them. Linux, just mentioning command lines has me a little nervous. (I know this is changing, but the field calculator is enough programming for me, thanks) I'm not suggesting anybody is obliged to fix these things, I mean there's no such thing as a free lunch. I'm just saying what OS inherently is, is probably going to keep it out of the mainstream (non-programming) end-users easy reach. So in short I am doing what somebody already suggested, get ESRI for day to day soft landing and learn OS GRASS and OSSIM meanwhile for real work;-) Hopefully in a while I'll wonder what the fuss was about... and possibly contribute, if only to the dummies FAQ section. André Grobler -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 April 2008 10:49 AM To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org Subject: [!! SPAM] Discuss Digest, Vol 16, Issue 28 Send Discuss mailing list submissions to discuss@lists.osgeo.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Discuss digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? (RAVI KUMAR) 2. Re: Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? (Cameron Shorter) 3. Re: Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? (Wolf Bergenheim) 4. Re: Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? (RAVI KUMAR) 5. Re: Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? (Malte Halbey-Martin) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: RAVI KUMAR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as withESRI)? To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising OS GIS. ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of tools, which almost distance the user from understanding the concept of GIS. Auto Complete Polygon: In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut polygon', do try and find the difference. Polygonising from lines: Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches. Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software automatically creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces) The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose. GRASS GIS: It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the commercial GIS need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part of GRASS is robust too. Ravi
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
ٍExcellent discussion. I have been an ArcGIS user and now i am transferring to OS. in my opinion, the best point of ArcGIS is that you everything in 1 package = simplifying tasks about OS, at least i see no difference in Web-GIS domain. OS softwares like UMN mapserver and Mapguide OS sometimes work better. in the field of Desktop GIS, although QGIS, GRASS,Sharpmap and other tools are available but in a diverse manner. the main problem is that the most powerful OS sotfware (GRASS) in this area is under Linux not windows (= developing desktop GIS tools sounds very difficult). As announced by GRASS dev group, this problem is gonna solve soon. === OS GIS support most of expected needs from GIS, but sometimes with consuming more time. - Original Message From: Malte Halbey-Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:56:26 AM Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? Hi, IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this point out. I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications, which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago! This new users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database. So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface, powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of OS GIS software. Just my opinion. Malte PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Comparison between Proprietary and OS
Andre Grobler wrote: ... So the hurdles for me to OS were acceptance specifically for the following reasons: Free and easy access and training of ESRI at varsity. Autocad did the same and look where that got them. Linux, just mentioning command lines has me a little nervous. (I know this is changing, but the field calculator is enough programming for me, thanks) ... So in short I am doing what somebody already suggested, get ESRI for day to day soft landing and learn OS GRASS and OSSIM meanwhile for real work;-) Hopefully in a while I'll wonder what the fuss was about... and possibly contribute, if only to the dummies FAQ section. André Grobler Andre: I had the privilege recently to give a short beginners course in GIS to a small group of undergrads in environmental science. Before the semester started I had decided to give the course based on FOSS tools. I first sat down with the network technician, who told me that they have ArcGIS 9, network licence, but he don't know where the disks were, and was concerned about space on the server, network traffic, bogging down their Terminal Server etc, etc. So I (rubbing my hands together) told him, no problem, we're going with Open Source Software. Turned out some of the students had MACs and one was using Ubuntu, so the choice to go with OSS tools was a no brainer. To my surprise, by the forth lesson we had gotten to watershed analysis, and students were running the GRASS modules (within QGIS). Admittedly we leapfrogged over some stuff, but still I doubt I could have reached that level with Arc* tools in such a short time span. The comfort zone problem is well know and likely the most difficult hurdle to overcome when trying to migrate to OSS tools. But to some extent it's nothing more than a matter of perception. Proprietary software vendors have surrounded us with distorting mirrors. Once you step away, things look quite different. Regards, Micha ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[OSGeo-Discuss] RE: OS and proprietary
I think that is probably another aspect us proprietary experienced people do not remember, theres a ton of stuff I dont need in ArcView that Im paying for What I do need from it unfortunately comes from the whole spectrum of its modules / levels and extensions, which is simply put, not remotely affordable. In no way did I wish to imply that OS needs to be more like proprietary, just that cost of entry is time consuming. Which in my current state Im rather hard pressed for would pay for training though!!! André Grobler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: OS and proprietary
On 4/26/08, Andre Grobler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is probably another aspect us proprietary experienced people do not remember, there's a ton of stuff I don't need in ArcView that I'm paying for… What I do need from it unfortunately comes from the whole spectrum of its modules / levels and extensions, which is simply put, not remotely affordable. In no way did I wish to imply that OS needs to be more like proprietary, just that cost of entry is time consuming. Which in my current state I'm rather hard pressed for… would pay for training though!!! Unclear to me from the above statement if you have more money than time or more time than money (although the two, in many situations, are interchangeable). To paraphrase the popular saying, There are 10 kinds of people in this world -- those who see open source lacking what they need and choose a proprietary software instead and those who see open source lacking what they need and choose to make it better. If you have the money that you would spend on proprietary software anyway, consider hiring an open source developer to develop what you want, and then put that functionality back into the open source community. André Grobler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/ Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/ Open Source Geospatial Foundation (OSGeo) http://www.osgeo.org/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] RE: Comparison between Proprietary and OS
Micha observations as to what his students have in terms of hardware is an important one. In North America this past year 40% of entering undergrads went off to university toting Mac laptops. Consequently, ESRI's current Window-centric focus offers a nice opportunity for open source desktop tools in the education arena. To also follow up Micha's comments, I teach a capstone fourth year course in which student teams develop a marketing plan for an outside organization. Half my teams this year had retail clients, and each of the teams with retail clients did some type of GIS analysis. I was able to get each team going with about 40 minutes of instruction on GIS tools (this is how you load a layer, this is what a projection is, this is how you do basic choropleth symbology, etc.), placing links to the appropriate project sites to get software and training documents, providing appropriate predigested shapefiles of attribute data on my course web site, and the teams were good to go. Some teams selected QGIS, others uDig, and PAGC was used for geocoding. My two observations from this (which will not be a surprise) is that better tools are needed for printing and laying out maps (another +1 for the OSGeo Cartographic Library initiative), and that students (or at least students in Marketing) have a complete lack of prior exposure to command line tools. Dan On Sat, 2008-04-26 at 17:31 +0300, Micha Silver wrote: Andre Grobler wrote: ... So the hurdles for me to OS were acceptance specifically for the following reasons: Free and easy access and training of ESRI at varsity. Autocad did the same and look where that got them. Linux, just mentioning command lines has me a little nervous. (I know this is changing, but the field calculator is enough programming for me, thanks) ... So in short I am doing what somebody already suggested, get ESRI for day to day soft landing and learn OS GRASS and OSSIM meanwhile for real work;-) Hopefully in a while I'll wonder what the fuss was about... and possibly contribute, if only to the dummies FAQ section. André Grobler Andre: I had the privilege recently to give a short beginners course in GIS to a small group of undergrads in environmental science. Before the semester started I had decided to give the course based on FOSS tools. I first sat down with the network technician, who told me that they have ArcGIS 9, network licence, but he don't know where the disks were, and was concerned about space on the server, network traffic, bogging down their Terminal Server etc, etc. So I (rubbing my hands together) told him, no problem, we're going with Open Source Software. Turned out some of the students had MACs and one was using Ubuntu, so the choice to go with OSS tools was a no brainer. To my surprise, by the forth lesson we had gotten to watershed analysis, and students were running the GRASS modules (within QGIS). Admittedly we leapfrogged over some stuff, but still I doubt I could have reached that level with Arc* tools in such a short time span. The comfort zone problem is well know and likely the most difficult hurdle to overcome when trying to migrate to OSS tools. But to some extent it's nothing more than a matter of perception. Proprietary software vendors have surrounded us with distorting mirrors. Once you step away, things look quite different. Regards, Micha ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Dan Putler Sauder School of Business University of British Columbia ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?
2008/4/26 Saka Royban [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ٍExcellent discussion. I have been an ArcGIS user and now i am transferring to OS. in my opinion, the best point of ArcGIS is that you everything in 1 package = simplifying tasks about OS, at least i see no difference in Web-GIS domain. OS softwares like UMN mapserver and Mapguide OS sometimes work better. in the field of Desktop GIS, although QGIS, GRASS,Sharpmap and other tools are available but in a diverse manner. the main problem is that the most powerful OS sotfware (GRASS) in this area is under Linux not windows (= developing desktop GIS tools sounds very difficult). As announced by GRASS dev group, this problem is gonna solve soon. === OS GIS support most of expected needs from GIS, but sometimes with consuming more time. - Original Message From: Malte Halbey-Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:56:26 AM Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)? Hi, IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this point out. I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications, which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago! This new users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database. So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface, powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of OS GIS software. Just my opinion. Malte PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it! Hi I'm enjoying a lot with that thread as always a Free/Privative comparison appears. But I'm quite surprised because it seems that privative geosoftware is only ESRI, what about Geomedia, ERDAS, ERMapper, Smallworld... for instance IMHO, free desktop GIS is not so far from privative solutions. With nice projects like QGis/GRASS or gvSIG I think we are not far from having almost all the funcitonality any user could need for collecting, analise and output. Creating nice paper outputs for me it's really important (and current user-friendly tools are far from producing acceptable maps) but maybe there are other outputs like SVG, KML or map server configuration files that are really important as the Internet is there and almost all of use use more web maps rather than paper maps. For me, one of the most worrying lacks in FOSS4G is an ArcSDE alternative because at this time there is not way for concurrence corporative database editing. GeoServer project sees that as a long-term project in their roadmap[2][3] but if we want a powerful web-distributed editing we need it right now. Regards [1]http://www.sigte.udg.es/jornadassiglibre/uploads/file/Presentaciones/20.ppt [2]http://geoserver.org/display/GEOS/Roadmap [3]http://geoserver.org/display/GEOS/Open+Source+ArcSDE -- Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas Ingeniero en Geodesia y Cartografía http://www.geomaticblog.net http://www.prodevelop.es ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
