[OSGeo-Discuss] Open vs Proprietary, the Yin and Yang of Innovation

2017-03-25 Thread Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) 
In the Open vs Proprietary discussion, both have their features and detractors. 
But, there is much more than the yin-yang of their details if we are to embrace 
each for their contribution to ^our^ world and how they advance the quality of 
life for all, not just a few. 

Our society and the 'engine' that drives innovation requires a yin-yang 
balance.  Today's severe dichotomy of haves and have-nots is the lead cause of 
the terrifying friction we are experiencing in our delicate world. And will 
assuredly increase if cannot find more 'open' ways to address our common needs, 
such as life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, according to one nation's 
declaration of basic human rights. 

Suchith first raised the question regarding the quality of 'open' because of 
his great concern for access to open geospatial tools serving education, as 
well as small business and government alike. Suchith is engaged in a kind of 
hand-to-hand combat for OSGeo equality. It's probably a result of those 
rose-colored OSGeo-like glasses he got from his grandmother. ;-0

'Open' is a key element to a world where we have a future, more importantly, a 
fruitful and inclusive one. Monopolies, the epitome of closed, are the real 
problem, mega-corps ruling a medium, not a luxury medium but one we all need. 
They depress the opportunity for 'open' to have a say. And they no longer 
operate on the 'free market' principle of 'open' and fair competition. 

Proprietary should be a very exciting and dynamic arena. The opportunity for 
value-added needs to continually challenge status quo, this is essential for 
innovation, whether that comes from the open source community, the business 
community or academia. When this opportunity is diminished, we become 'yoked' 
to essentially one solution, without stimulating the market of innovation.

At the very least we can all agree on open standards for information exchange, 
this is essential, and is the life-blood of our ability to communicate with 
each other. Just ask OGC! Yet LAS vs LAZ is a good example of the 'open yet not 
open' issue. So the dialogue is necessarily complex, with 'open' having several 
degrees of freedom. 

The world is desperate for innovation today! We have changing weather patterns 
that are leading to low-level conflict and worse, followed by subsequent mass 
migrations. We cannot afford for poorer students, cities or nations to be left 
behind. 

Recall that just 150,000 or so years ago 'we' migrated out of the Olduvai 
Gorge. We are all children of migrants. We have so much to learn about 
ourselves and such joy to experience in beautifully indulging each other with 
music, dance, love, art and fantastic software solutions, with innovation being 
'openly' challenged on every front! 

My favorite quote, aside from one by Eleanor Roosevelt about the future 
belonging to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams, is one from the 
PBS website "There's more genetic diversity within a group of chimps on a 
single hillside in Gomba than in the entire human species." 
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-11.htm

We have everything to gain in openly sharing, and everything to lose if we 
don't.
-Patrick
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[OSGeo-Discuss] (no subject)

2017-03-25 Thread Steven Feldman 
It is important to note that the cost of licences in a solution (i.e. something 
more than a simple desktop implementation) are only a part of the overall cost 
and in many cases, in my experience, a small part. 

Implementation, customisation, integration, training, ongoing support, 
maintenance and hosting are the main costs regardless of whether the underlying 
software is proprietary or open source

My experience of selling to the public sector is that, on occasions, 
proprietary solutions have been lower cost than open source. 

Steven


> On 24 Mar 2017, at 19:00, discuss-requ...@lists.osgeo.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier
>  properitery product as Open ? (Suchith Anand)
>   2. Re: Wiki: InfrastructurePreferencesStatusQuo - call for
>  update (Vicky Vergara)
>   3. Ideas for the building global research agenda for Geospatial
>  Data Science (Suchith Anand)
>   4. Re: Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier
>  properitery product as Open? (Steven Feldman)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:51:53 +
> From: Suchith Anand 
> To: María Arias de Reyna , Luí­s Moreira
>de Sousa 
> Cc: "discuss@lists.osgeo.org" 
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor
>to market thier properitery product as Open ?
> Message-ID:
>
> 
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> +1 .
> 
> 
> I am also interested in how we can protect taxpayers money in this. The need 
> for cost savings by using Open source GIS software will help the local 
> authorities and various government departments across Europe in reducing huge 
> licence fee costs for proprietary software and  Government and taxpayers as a 
> whole will benefit from cost efficiencies, reduce the cost of lock-in to 
> suppliers and products. This is especially important for future IT 
> investments (for example Cloud Computing) , so that more options are explored 
> and choices available. I presented my ideas on the importance of having a 
> National level strategy for Open Principles in Geospatial [1] . Overview 
> slides are at 
> https://www.slideshare.net/SuchithAnand/national-level-strategy-for-open-principles-in-geospatial
> 
> 
> 
> It is my duty as a global citizen to work on this  so that all our future 
> generations are empowered fully. Let us plan to meet and discuss ideas at 
> FOSS4G -Europe for making OSGeo European chapter.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Suchith
> 
> 
> 
> [1] 
> http://opensourcegeospatial.icaci.org/2016/03/national-level-strategy-for-open-principles-in-geospatial-ideas-and-inputs-needed/
> 
> 
> From: Discuss  on behalf of María Arias de 
> Reyna 
> Sent: 23 March 2017 9:20 AM
> To: Luí­s Moreira de Sousa
> Cc: discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to 
> market thier properitery product as Open ?
> 
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Luí­s Moreira de Sousa 
> > wrote:
> 
> I believe we need a regulatory framework for "open source" labelling; 
> something like the EU regulation 1169/2011 [2] for organic farming. It not 
> only sets the criteria for farmers to label their products, as it actively 
> prevents others from falsely claiming to that criteria.
> 
> 
> +1 Restarting the movement for the european chapter to be able to lobby for 
> this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Mateusz Loskot 
On 25 March 2017 at 13:01, Paolo Cavallini  wrote:
> Il 25/03/2017 12:56, Mateusz Loskot ha scritto:
>
>> They do, but at the same time, we wouldn't be where we are now
>> in terms of civilisation development. yin/yang
>
> Not quite sure about that: Mateusz, do you have a reference to support this?

It is just my opinion and interpretation of what I have learned about/from
history, state of current affairs.

If there was no Soviet Union and USA, man would have arrived on the Moon
much later than he actually did. I'm certain, but I can't prove it, obviously.

Nobody is asking for reference regarding the misleading practices
implied in the thread.
OP's posed questions vaguely enough to make it impossible to pertain to
with any relevant references.

Best regards,
-- 
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Carl Reed 
I would also be interested. Have not read the entire thread yet. That said,
most (all?) large app and software providers now offer open APIs. Check out
Google, Twitter, Amazon and on and on. These APIs are "open" because anyone
can implement, use, develop, etc. You could even use the API definition to
implement your own API against your own back end servers. Based on the
license type (often Apache) the caveat is that you could not sell that
"new" API.

Now, of course, all of these open APIs access one or more back end server
apps or services and there may are may not be a fee for using those apps or
services. Most of these software and infrastructure companies allow limited
free use of the back end service and/or geospatial data access.

Obviously, there is some continuum of what the market says about what is
open and what is not.

So, if the API is open and the client is free and there is free (but
limited) access to proprietary services and data, is this open?

Interesting question :-)

Cheers

Carl

On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Jody Garnett 
wrote:

> And here is the biz model definition, I would be interested if the
> original poster can clarify in which context the word was used :)
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 9:55 PM Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
>
>> This is a good thread, and let us discuss to derive a 'Note', for those
>> facing 'Questions', evangelising Free and Open GIS.
>>
>> I suggest this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_platform for many who
>> wish to know.
>> May be we can have a page on, 'OSGeo Wiki' on this topic.
>> Cheers
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Suchith Anand <
>> suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have a query. If a properitery GIS vendor starts marketing thier
>> properitery products as Open platform and software then what rights do the
>> organisations and customers have who are mislead buying the  properitery
>> software thinking it is open have ?  The definision of Proprietary
>> software [1] is very clearly defined, so  how can it be possible for any
>> properitery GIS vendor to market their  software knowingly as open platform
>> if it is properitery?
>>
>> This also greatly affects the business and revenues of true open source
>> software companies .  Who is responsible for any misleading marketing that
>> results in losses to both customers who are mislead to buy the
>> properitery software thinking it is open  and also to other companies
>> who do true open source business who lose out on the business
>> opportunities? Is it right business ethics to do this?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Suchith
>>
>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software
>>
>>
>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
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>>
>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>> University of Nottingham.
>>
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>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Interest Group on Agricultural Data (IGAD) Pre-Plenary meeting

2017-03-25 Thread Suchith Anand 
Dear colleagues,


This might be of interest to those working in AgriGIS. The Research Data 
Alliance Interest Group on Agricultural Data (IGAD) Pre-Plenary meeting is 
scheduled on 3-4 April 2017 in Barcelona. The two-day meeting, will include 
presentations during the first day, related to the topics below, while the 
second day will focus intensive discussions and interactions. Towards this 
objective, it is proposed to organize nine discussion groups around the 
following topics:


  *   AgriSemantics
  *   Rice Data and Wheat Data Interoperability
  *   Other crop Research Data Interoperability
  *   Soil Data Interoperability
  *   On-Farm Data Sharing
  *   Metrics and indicators in agricultural science
  *   Climate/Weather Data
  *   Capacity development in the context of research data in agriculture


Some of these topics will be of interest to Geo community.  The agenda and 
details are at  
https://www.rd-alliance.org/rda-interest-group-agricultural-data-igad-pre-plenary-meeting-3-4-april-2017-barcelona-spain

Please contact the chairs directly for any info.

Best wishes,

Suchith




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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Paolo Cavallini 
Il 25/03/2017 12:56, Mateusz Loskot ha scritto:

> They do, but at the same time, we wouldn't be where we are now
> in terms of civilisation development. yin/yang

Not quite sure about that: Mateusz, do you have a reference to support this?
All the best, and thanks.

-- 
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
QGIS & PostGIS courses: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html
https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all=IT=qgis,arcgis
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Mateusz Loskot 
On 25 March 2017 at 12:54, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 12:43:29PM +0100, Mateusz Loskot wrote:
>
>> without a secret, there is no technology advancement
>
> I think this is a purely ideological position.
>
> Secrets can generate all kind of deseases, if you ask me :)

They do, but at the same time, we wouldn't be where we are now
in terms of civilisation development. yin/yang

Best regards,
-- 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 12:43:29PM +0100, Mateusz Loskot wrote:

> without a secret, there is no technology advancement

I think this is a purely ideological position.

Secrets can generate all kind of deseases, if you ask me :)

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Mateusz Loskot 
On 25 March 2017 at 10:17, Suchith Anand  wrote:
> My query was if the term Open can be used for marketing any properitery 
> softwares and platforms and to know if there are any guidelines on this?

Nobody has a monopoly on use of the word.

BTW, without a secret, there is no technology advancement, there is no
motivation for development of counter-technologies.
Mind you, communities and businesses have long recognised without
open, there is no close and vice versa.
Hence, so called business-friendly open source licenses, LocationTech, etc.

Best regards,
-- 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Suchith Anand 
My query was if the term Open can be used for marketing any properitery 
softwares and platforms and to know if there are any guidelines on this? This 
definition  Ravi Kumar send  is helpful to help me understand one aspect of 
this . Thanks Ravi Kumar.

Best wishes,

Suchith

From: Jody Garnett 
Sent: 25 March 2017 7:21 AM
To: Ravi Kumar; Anand Suchith
Cc: discuss@lists.osgeo.org; geofor...@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to 
market thier properitery product as Open ?

And here is the biz model definition, I would be interested if the original 
poster can clarify in which context the word was used :)
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 9:55 PM Ravi Kumar 
> wrote:
This is a good thread, and let us discuss to derive a 'Note', for those facing 
'Questions', evangelising Free and Open GIS.

I suggest this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_platform for many who wish to 
know.
May be we can have a page on, 'OSGeo Wiki' on this topic.
Cheers
Ravi Kumar


On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Suchith Anand 
> wrote:

Hi all,


I have a query. If a properitery GIS vendor starts marketing thier properitery 
products as Open platform and software then what rights do the organisations 
and customers have who are mislead buying the  properitery software thinking it 
is open have ?  The definision of Proprietary software [1] is very clearly 
defined, so  how can it be possible for any properitery GIS vendor to market 
their  software knowingly as open platform if it is properitery?


This also greatly affects the business and revenues of true open source 
software companies .  Who is responsible for any misleading marketing that 
results in losses to both customers who are mislead to buy the properitery 
software thinking it is open  and also to other companies who do true open 
source business who lose out on the business opportunities? Is it right 
business ethics to do this?


Best wishes,

Suchith


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software



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[OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Geo4All] Ideas for the building global research agenda for Geospatial Data Science - Telemeeting link for those connecting remotely

2017-03-25 Thread Maria Antonia Brovelli 
I will try to join, but I'm available only after 16:30-16:45. Have a good 
meeting!
Maria



Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Suchith Anand 
Data: 25/03/17 07:55 (GMT+01:00)
A: discuss@lists.osgeo.org, geofor...@lists.osgeo.org
Oggetto: Re: [Geo4All] Ideas for the building global research agenda for 
Geospatial Data Science - Telemeeting link for those connecting remotely

Hi All,

The meeting is on April 5 from 16:00-17:30 (Barcelona time).


Meeting joining link is  at  https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/853681141

You can also dial in using your phone.
Access Code: 853-681-141


Details to connect at 
https://www.rd-alliance.org/ig-geospatial-rda-9th-plenary-meeting

Looking forward to see you all then.

Best wishes,

Suchith


From: Anand Suchith
Sent: 24 March 2017 11:05 AM
To: discuss@lists.osgeo.org; geofor...@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: Ideas for the building global research agenda for Geospatial Data 
Science

Dear colleague,

The Geospatial IG of the Research Data Alliance will be meeting in Barcelona on 
5th April 2017 to keep building ideas for the global research agenda for 
Geospatial Data Science.I am pleased to send the final meeting agenda and 
invite all interested to join.

The meeting objectives are to :

* Discussions on Geospatial Data Science - Vision 2030 [1]
* Plan next steps from OpenCitySmart and UrbanGeoBigData [2]
* Ideas for Education programs for Geospatial Data Science
* Discuss Ideas for starting new WGs in Transport Data

Meeting agenda

This meeting aims to build upon our previous meetings and draft agenda below

* Updates on Geospatial IG - Suchith Anand (GODAN/University of Nottingham)
* Discussions on new WG in Transport Data that is in progress - Beth Zeitler 
(Millennium Challenge Corporation, USA)
* Coverage: Standards for Big Earth Data - Peter Baumann (Jacobs University)
* Enabling the re-use of spatial information across domains - Andrea Perego 
(JRC, European Commission)
* Copernicus EU Programme - Andrea Perego (JRC, European Commission)
* Joint W3C/OGC Spatial Data on the Web WG - Andrea Perego (JRC, European 
Commission)
* Discussions on Geospatial Data Science - Vision 2030 - chaired by Suchith 
Anand (GODAN/University of Nottingham)
* The Rise of OpenStreetMap as a World Mapping Agency [3] - discussions chaired 
by Suchith Anand (GODAN/University of Nottingham)
* NASA Europa Challenge 2017 and OpenCitySmart updates - Suchith Anand 
(GODAN/University of Nottingham)
* Updates on Capacity Development from IGAD meeting - Suchith Anand 
(GODAN/University of Nottingham)
* Ideas/updates on Training programs for Geospatial Data Science - All
* Ideas for specific actions /new WGs in Geospatial IG - All

There will be gotomeeting facility for those interested to join remotely. I am 
waiting for the RDA hosts to send me the details of this and it will updated in 
the main website at

https://www.rd-alliance.org/ig-geospatial-rda-9th-plenary-meeting

I look forward to welcome you all for productive discussions and actions for 
building  the global research agenda for Geospatial Data Science.

Best wishes,

Suchith




[1] 
http://www.geoconnexion.com/uploads/publication_pdfs/uk_v15i18-058-059-Op951AF3.pdf

[2] 
https://www.devex.com/news/how-nasa-and-the-un-are-using-location-intelligence-to-build-smart-cities-in-developing-countries-89721

[3] 
http://opensourcegeospatial.icaci.org/2017/03/the-rise-of-openstreetmap-as-a-world-mapping-agency/





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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Is it possible for properitery GIS vendor to market thier properitery product as Open ?

2017-03-25 Thread Jody Garnett 
And here is the biz model definition, I would be interested if the original
poster can clarify in which context the word was used :)
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 9:55 PM Ravi Kumar 
wrote:

> This is a good thread, and let us discuss to derive a 'Note', for those
> facing 'Questions', evangelising Free and Open GIS.
>
> I suggest this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_platform for many who
> wish to know.
> May be we can have a page on, 'OSGeo Wiki' on this topic.
> Cheers
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Suchith Anand <
> suchith.an...@nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a query. If a properitery GIS vendor starts marketing thier
> properitery products as Open platform and software then what rights do the
> organisations and customers have who are mislead buying the  properitery
> software thinking it is open have ?  The definision of Proprietary
> software [1] is very clearly defined, so  how can it be possible for any
> properitery GIS vendor to market their  software knowingly as open platform
> if it is properitery?
>
> This also greatly affects the business and revenues of true open source
> software companies .  Who is responsible for any misleading marketing that
> results in losses to both customers who are mislead to buy the properitery
> software thinking it is open  and also to other companies who do true open
> source business who lose out on the business opportunities? Is it right
> business ethics to do this?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Suchith
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software
>
>
>
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