[OSGeo-Discuss] R: Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Maria Antonia Brovelli]

This is my last mail on this topic, because it is stupid to go ahead in this 
conversation and I don't want to become upset. I want only to highlight that 
what you call "social pressure" is simply to listening to the community 
thoughts. Community is more than a beautiful picture of people... Thanks Jody 
and have a good night.
Maria



Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett 
Data: 20/09/17 21:46 (GMT+01:00)
A: Helmut Kudrnovsky 
Cc: OSGeo Discussions 
Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

Okay folks this conversation thread is starting to make me upset; we have gone 
from a productive discussion and has escalated.

To be clear we have an open bug report, the specific feature is part of the 
website template and I do not have the ability to edit it directly. Listing 
"migrate from" is optional and project leaders can change this page to reflect 
the area in which they work.

This conversation appears to be missing the point of the exercise of the 
website as a whole and applying social pressure to get-something-to-change.

I do not believe social pressure is an effective tool:
- Are you actually offended and speaking from personal feeling? If so can you 
explain more how you feel we need to balance the communication goals of the 
website vs your feelings as community member
- Are you applying social pressure to have this "Migrate to" information 
removed? I am interested in respecting the project leadership (who has control 
of these pages) and the marketing committee (who has an outreach 
responsibility). I feel that listening, rather than social pressure, is a good 
way to make responsible decisions.
- Are you thinking ahead to how a specific community, say the QGIS community in 
this case, may feel about having "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" on this page? 
If so you are correct this original bug report came from the QGIS community, 
and I hope it has been addressed. I think the QGIS community offers a far 
better experience both in support and freedom then the alternatives listed. 
This initial information is provided by each PSC, and if we could get our LDAP 
working it would be their responsibility to edit or remove on a case by case 
basis, there should be no cause for projects to be offended.
- Are you concerned about inviting comparison to open source to proprietary at 
all? If so you are a bit stuck as we have an outreach mandate at OSGeo. If you 
have specific concerns about comparison we can address them, and help write the 
"why open source" page explaining that open source is a much better way to geo 
:)

Please be respectful of the contributors working on the website/rebranding and 
during the foss4g sprint.




--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> wrote:
Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to "similar 
proprietary products" [1] to your attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary Products" 
should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software out there, 
there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of e.g. a reviewed 
scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if they want to - may 
link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such links. As already 
elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such items are listed, but 
I can't see this happen. "

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects improving 
on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is the key rather 
than linking to proprietary software. One of such opportunities may be the 
upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce nice screenshots for 
documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on tiny little tasks for 
students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who will be our OSGeo's 
future.

Kind regards
Helmut
OSGeo charter member

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
[2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Miles Fidelman]

Jody,

This is a very good point.

(comments continue below...)

On 9/20/17 1:19 PM, Jody Garnett wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 12:44, Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> wrote:


Jody this is not respectful of me and the community.  Might I know
why the people working for the project want ABSOLUTELY to keep the
names and links to proprietary software on our open source
software website?


I feel a bit of pressure to express myself exactly correctly on this 
outreach topic; or risk people missing the point ...  The outreach 
approach was determined months ago when going over our target audience 
(literally what the website is for). Te website was defined with these 
visitor journey's in mind...


The primary audience for the website is non-community members:
- ESRI GIS Professional (GISP), IT Professionals, Academic Faculty, 
Academic Students, Science and Research, Influencers & Decision 
makers, Software Developers
- the communication goal is to promote awareness - asking 
non-community members to consider and evaluate
- the next goal is adoption - assisting non-community members in 
adopting open source
- the final foal is impress - having non-community members be 
enthusiastic and advocate open source


The secondary audience is community members:
- osgeo members, partners, service providers, sponsors, contributors
- the steps awarness, adoption, impress reflect contributing to open 
source
- many of the community member activities are taking place on the wiki 
and are happy to remain there.




When talking to the broader GIS community, it's important to keep in 
mind two things:


- most GIS users are more familiar with ESRI & Google tools

- most of what passes for standards are either defacto (ESRI & Google 
formats & APIs), or developed by OGC - which is an industry consortium


- lots of folks utilize a combination of tools - some open source, some 
not (e.g., folks who use MapServer to serve databases maintained on ArcGIS).


Taken together, if the intent of the site is to educate & support GIS 
users, and promote open source geo tools - then the site really has to 
address compatibility, and hybrid environments.  Links to commercial 
equivalents - perhaps with reviews and comparisons - provides a lot of 
value (e.g., when trying to figure out how to use OpenLayers to view 
layers that come from a mix of ESRI, Google, and OGC-compliant sources.


Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Steven Feldman]

Maria

It appears that there is a misunderstanding (at best) about the target 
audiences of the web site. Our primary objective is to use the new web site as 
a tool for outreach to people who are not already committed to using open 
source geo. Hence the focus on enabling/encouraging/informing ‘migration’

You may believe that you are representing the views of people who voted for you 
but you should also recognise that there are others within the community who 
may or may not have voted for you who hold equally strong but opposing views. 
The community does not speak with one voice nor does it currently have a 
mechanism to poll opinion on detailed topics such as this. I think it would be 
a mistake for board members to seek to impose their views on the marketing (or 
any other committee).

Best
__
Steven


> On 20 Sep 2017, at 21:19, Jody Garnett  wrote:
> 
> Jody this is not respectful of me and the community.  Might I know why the 
> people working for the project want ABSOLUTELY to keep the names and links to 
> proprietary software on our open source software website? 
> 
> Anyhow, I think that the Board can express ourselves about this point. I 
> remember you  that we were voted and that the people who voted me don't want 
> those names and links. I'm speaking on behalf of many. In case, we will ask 
> the whole community to express ourselves about that. 
> I want to apologise with the people working at the website if my tone could 
> have seen as rude. Who knows me, knows that I'm not a native speaker and 
> sometimes my words seem to be worse than what I have in mind. I want to 
> claridy that I appreciate a lot their work ( I suppose they appreciate my 
> work all the same) and I thank them with all my hearth.  But absolutely I 
> don't agree with this choice and I explained you also the reasons.
> Best
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
> 
> 
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett  
> Data: 20/09/17 21:24 (GMT+01:00) 
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli  
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> , OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 
>  
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website 
> 
> Maria your request is at odds with the goal of this website.
> 
> Already I have private chats about participants being discouraged. I do not 
> think that using the board to control the process is a productive or 
> respectful of those working on the project.
> 
> Please reconsider how to interactive positively with the community. 
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> > wrote:
> If somebody is interested in knowing more about foss4g, we are here. If 
> somebody, using whichever proprietary software,  wants to have more pieces of 
> information they can contact us and we will provide them with all the 
> information they need. 
> Contacting and working with us is a definitely different attitude than simply 
>  downloading and using. And we are interested in the first type of people 
> because we want our community growing. 
> Therefore no needs at all to put the names and links to proprietary software.
> Please again remote them.
> I'll open a loomio vote of the Board about that.
> Have a good evening
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Sandro Santilli]

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 01:19:48PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

> The reason I want to keep the names (don't care about the links) is address
> the needs of non-commuity website visitors. To answer the question "I use
> XXX, how can you help me?"

As I wrote on the ticket already, I like the idea of answering such
question, but having the XXX name on each page does not answer it
because it would require people to know the answer before asking the
question.

How hard would it be to turn those XXX into keywords so that the
a search for "XXX" returns related project pages ?

--strk;

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[OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Maria Antonia Brovelli]

Jody this is not respectful of me and the community.  Might I know why the 
people working for the project want ABSOLUTELY to keep the names and links to 
proprietary software on our open source software website?

Anyhow, I think that the Board can express ourselves about this point. I 
remember you  that we were voted and that the people who voted me don't want 
those names and links. I'm speaking on behalf of many. In case, we will ask the 
whole community to express ourselves about that.
I want to apologise with the people working at the website if my tone could 
have seen as rude. Who knows me, knows that I'm not a native speaker and 
sometimes my words seem to be worse than what I have in mind. I want to claridy 
that I appreciate a lot their work ( I suppose they appreciate my work all the 
same) and I thank them with all my hearth.  But absolutely I don't agree with 
this choice and I explained you also the reasons.
Best
Maria





Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett 
Data: 20/09/17 21:24 (GMT+01:00)
A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky , 
OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 

Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

Maria your request is at odds with the goal of this website.

Already I have private chats about participants being discouraged. I do not 
think that using the board to control the process is a productive or respectful 
of those working on the project.

Please reconsider how to interactive positively with the community.
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> wrote:
If somebody is interested in knowing more about foss4g, we are here. If 
somebody, using whichever proprietary software,  wants to have more pieces of 
information they can contact us and we will provide them with all the 
information they need.
Contacting and working with us is a definitely different attitude than simply  
downloading and using. And we are interested in the first type of people 
because we want our community growing.
Therefore no needs at all to put the names and links to proprietary software.
Please again remote them.
I'll open a loomio vote of the Board about that.
Have a good evening
Maria




Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett >
Data: 20/09/17 20:40 (GMT+01:00)
A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
>
Cc: Margherita Di Leo >, Helmut 
Kudrnovsky >, OSGeo Discussions 
>, OSGeo-Marketing 
>
Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

I like your language that our open source projects are much more than 
proprietary software - it is this reason we are focusing on a team photo for 
each page (rather than a screen shot of the software).

The original bug report reported a direct link to ESRI which was fixed, this is 
where the "advertising" came in - which was never the original intention and 
was fixed.

The "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" idea looks like it does a way better job of 
communicating and is a positive result of this discussion.
- This information is mission critical for outreach and driving adoption of 
open source, the top question this website and those new to open source ask is 
"I am using XXX, what is available?"
- In many cases I do not know the proprietary software and a link to wikipedia 
article would give a visitor like me useful context (of course we can remove 
the link and just have text because the website is not for me).
- It also occurs to me to be respectful of trademark; listing competitors is a 
good practice but it can be done with respect.

Maria of course no offence is intended to volunteers (myself) included. Thanks 
for participating in this discussion.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 10:29, Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> wrote:
Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS industry 
that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I refuse the idea of 
"similar proprietary software" because our projects are much more than pieces 
of code. Behind our software there are communities and limiting our projects to 
pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for the volunteers behind them. We 
are more and diverse. This is the reason why there are not "similar proprietary 
software".
Thanks for removing the links.
Best
Maria




Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] presenting open source software or open source projects

[Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)]

Jody,

Yes, this is a great and truly elemental ^concept^ for how we consider and name 
our efforts, so that they might be best appreciated by a welcoming world.

Just for an added alternative, and not to suggest that the discussion shouldn’t 
remain software vs projects, but how about the word ‘enterprise’? Not sure if 
this might be a real consideration or something just to toss out there and toss 
away.

The word project seems more definitive than the word software, and the word 
enterprise, though grand, may be too grandiose.

Open Source Projects
Open Source Software
Open Source Enterprise (or even Enterprises)

-Patrick

From: Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Jody Garnett
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 3:03 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] presenting open source software or open source projects

I would like to bring to discuss a question that we are struggling with for the 
website/rebranding - do we present "open source software" or "open source 
projects"?

This is not an easy answer, as the earlier discussion on this list did not know 
how to recognize projects doing a rewrite (example OL2 --> OL3, or project 
teams expanding and developing additional software components like QGIS Server.

Here is the email from the marketing list:

The choose-a-project wizard is now working, we had to cut down some of the tags 
last week and change how the pages were done to make it happen.
This touches on a conversation with Steve Feldman from the code sprint. As part 
of the focus exercise the home page was 
changed to says "Choose your software" which then links to "choose-a-project".
It does bring up two interesting cases:
1) http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/projects/qgis/
QGIS - has several software projects now under one banner: QGIS Desktop, QGIS 
Server, more?
This is kind of messing with the system (and resulting in oddities like QGIS 
being listed as a cloud processing service, I assume QGIS server could run in 
the cloud and qgis desktop offers processing).
2) http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/projects/gvsig/
Same thing, there are now multiple gvSig software projects: gvSIG Desktop, 
gvNIX, gvSIG Mobile, i3Geo

Recommendation for the beta website:
- Making the QGIS Association page under Partners, linking to individual pages 
for QGIS and QGIS Server project pages.
- Makin the gvSIG Association link to the individual software project pages for 
gvSIG Desktop, gvNIX, gvSIG  Mobile, i3Geo.

And Steven Feldman's reply:

My 1st thoughts on ‘projects’ and ‘software' are to look at definitions:
Project:
"In contemporary business and 
science, a project is an individual or 
collaborative enterprise, possibly involving research or design, that is 
carefully planned, usually by a project 
team, to achieve a particular aim.[1]
A project may also be a set 
of interrelated tasks to be executed over a fixed period and within certain 
cost and other limitations.[2]
It may be a temporary 
(rather than permanent) social 
systems as work 
systems that is constituted by 
teams within or across organizations to 
accomplish particular 
tasks under time 
constraints.[3] A project 
may be a part of a wider programme 
management” 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project
Software:
"Computer software, or simply software, is a part of a computer 
system that consists of 
data or computer instructions, 
in contrast to the physical 
hardware from which the system 
is built. In computer science 
and software engineering, 
computer software is all information 
processed by computer systems, 
programs and data. Computer 
software includes computer 
programs, 
libraries and related 
non-executable data, such as 
online documentation or 
digital media.” 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software

My interpretation:
Each different application 

[OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Maria Antonia Brovelli]

Dear Jody
Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting 
"similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary 
software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and I 
want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been paying as 
OSGeo.
I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the related 
links.
Many thanks
Best,
Maria





Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett 
Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
A: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky 
Cc: OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 

Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this 
website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended for 
the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about open 
source yet.

These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a 
particular target market in mind filling in this information would really help! 
Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question - since I 
have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not one I can 
easily answer.

In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar 
Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too 
confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary software, 
linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.

I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects taking 
competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.


On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
> wrote:
Hi,

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> wrote:
Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to "similar 
proprietary products" [1] to your attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary Products" 
should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software out there, 
there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of e.g. a reviewed 
scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if they want to - may 
link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such links. As already 
elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such items are listed, but 
I can't see this happen. "

I agree. I don't understand it either.

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects improving 
on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is the key rather 
than linking to proprietary software. One of such opportunities may be the 
upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce nice screenshots for 
documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on tiny little tasks for 
students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who will be our OSGeo's 
future.

Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for students 
may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see for example  
https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/4777925899452416/task/5259692246827008/
I take the liberty of cc'ing the marketing committee, because it would be nice 
to see some members joining the code-in mentors pool. Let us know that you want 
to join, writing an email to gsoc-ad...@osgeo.org 
and I'll send you the subscription form.
Hoping that I didn't go much off topic respect to the original meaning of this 
email

Thank you





--
Margherita Di Leo
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks Maria, and I apologize for getting upset. I would like a chance to
listen to people and determine a course of action together.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 12:59, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> This is my last mail on this topic, because it is stupid to go ahead in
> this conversation and I don't want to become upset. I want only to
> highlight that what you call "social pressure" is simply to listening to
> the community thoughts. Community is more than a beautiful picture of
> people... Thanks Jody and have a good night.
> Maria
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett 
> Data: 20/09/17 21:46 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions 
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website
>
> Okay folks this conversation thread is starting to make me upset; we have
> gone from a productive discussion and has escalated.
>
> To be clear we have an open bug report, the specific feature is part of
> the website template and I do not have the ability to edit it directly.
> Listing "migrate from" is optional and project leaders can change this page
> to reflect the area in which they work.
>
> This conversation appears to be missing the point of the exercise of the
> website as a whole and applying social pressure to get-something-to-change.
>
> I do not believe social pressure is an effective tool:
> - Are you actually offended and speaking from personal feeling? If so can
> you explain more how you feel we need to balance the communication goals of
> the website vs your feelings as community member
> - Are you applying social pressure to have this "Migrate to" information
> removed? I am interested in respecting the project leadership (who has
> control of these pages) and the marketing committee (who has an outreach
> responsibility). I feel that listening, rather than social pressure, is a
> good way to make responsible decisions.
> - Are you thinking ahead to how a specific community, say the QGIS
> community in this case, may feel about having "Migrate from: ArcMap,
> MapInfo" on this page? If so you are correct this original bug report came
> from the QGIS community, and I hope it has been addressed. I think the QGIS
> community offers a far better experience both in support and freedom then
> the alternatives listed. This initial information is provided by each PSC,
> and if we could get our LDAP working it would be their responsibility to
> edit or remove on a case by case basis, there should be no cause for
> projects to be offended.
> - Are you concerned about inviting comparison to open source to
> proprietary at all? If so you are a bit stuck as we have an outreach
> mandate at OSGeo. If you have specific concerns about comparison we can
> address them, and help write the "why open source" page explaining that
> open source is a much better way to geo :)
>
> Please be respectful of the contributors working on the website/rebranding
> and during the foss4g sprint.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>
>> Dear OSGeo community
>>
>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>
>> My comment there:
>>
>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>
>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
>> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Helmut
>> OSGeo charter member
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
>> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Okay folks this conversation thread is starting to make me upset; we have
gone from a productive discussion and has escalated.

To be clear we have an open bug report, the specific feature is part of the
website template and I do not have the ability to edit it directly. Listing
"migrate from" is optional and project leaders can change this page to
reflect the area in which they work.

This conversation appears to be missing the point of the exercise of the
website as a whole and applying social pressure to get-something-to-change.

I do not believe social pressure is an effective tool:
- Are you actually offended and speaking from personal feeling? If so can
you explain more how you feel we need to balance the communication goals of
the website vs your feelings as community member
- Are you applying social pressure to have this "Migrate to" information
removed? I am interested in respecting the project leadership (who has
control of these pages) and the marketing committee (who has an outreach
responsibility). I feel that listening, rather than social pressure, is a
good way to make responsible decisions.
- Are you thinking ahead to how a specific community, say the QGIS
community in this case, may feel about having "Migrate from: ArcMap,
MapInfo" on this page? If so you are correct this original bug report came
from the QGIS community, and I hope it has been addressed. I think the QGIS
community offers a far better experience both in support and freedom then
the alternatives listed. This initial information is provided by each PSC,
and if we could get our LDAP working it would be their responsibility to
edit or remove on a case by case basis, there should be no cause for
projects to be offended.
- Are you concerned about inviting comparison to open source to proprietary
at all? If so you are a bit stuck as we have an outreach mandate at OSGeo.
If you have specific concerns about comparison we can address them, and
help write the "why open source" page explaining that open source is a much
better way to geo :)

Please be respectful of the contributors working on the website/rebranding
and during the foss4g sprint.




--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 02:41, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:

> Dear OSGeo community
>
> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>
> My comment there:
>
> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>
> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
> OSGeo charter member
>
> [1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
> [2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Maria your request is at odds with the goal of this website.

Already I have private chats about participants being discouraged. I do not
think that using the board to control the process is a productive or
respectful of those working on the project.

Please reconsider how to interactive positively with the community.
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> If somebody is interested in knowing more about foss4g, we are here. If
> somebody, using whichever proprietary software,  wants to have more pieces
> of information they can contact us and we will provide them with all the
> information they need.
> Contacting and working with us is a definitely different attitude than
> simply  downloading and using. And we are interested in the first type of
> people because we want our community growing.
> Therefore no needs at all to put the names and links to proprietary
> software.
> Please again remote them.
> I'll open a loomio vote of the Board about that.
> Have a good evening
> Maria
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett 
> Data: 20/09/17 20:40 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions ,
> OSGeo-Marketing 
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> I like your language that our open source projects are much more than
> proprietary software - it is this reason we are focusing on a team photo
> for each page (rather than a screen shot of the software).
>
> The original bug report reported a direct link to ESRI which was fixed,
> this is where the "advertising" came in - which was never the original
> intention and was fixed.
>
> The "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" idea looks like it does a way better
> job of communicating and is a positive result of this discussion.
> - This information is mission critical for outreach and driving adoption
> of open source, the top question this website and those new to open source
> ask is "I am using XXX, what is available?"
> - In many cases I do not know the proprietary software and a link to
> wikipedia article would give a visitor like me useful context (of course we
> can remove the link and just have text because the website is not for me).
> - It also occurs to me to be respectful of trademark; listing competitors
> is a good practice but it can be done with respect.
>
> Maria of course no offence is intended to volunteers (myself) included.
> Thanks for participating in this discussion.
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 10:29, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>
>> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS
>> industry that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I
>> refuse the idea of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are
>> much more than pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities
>> and limiting our projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for
>> the volunteers behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why
>> there are not "similar proprietary software".
>> Thanks for removing the links.
>> Best
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>
>>
>>  Messaggio originale 
>> Da: Jody Garnett 
>> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
>> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
>> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
>> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions ,
>> OSGeo-Marketing 
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
>> website
>>
>> Thanks Maria,
>>
>> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
>> time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
>>
>> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
>> proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
>> help.
>>
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>>
>> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
>> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jody
>>> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
>>> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
>>> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
>>> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
>>> paying as OSGeo.
>>> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the
>>> related links.
>>> Many thanks
>>> Best,
>>> Maria
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>>
>>>
>>>  Messaggio originale 
>>> Da: Jody Garnett 
>>> Data: 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

I like your language that our open source projects are much more than
proprietary software - it is this reason we are focusing on a team photo
for each page (rather than a screen shot of the software).

The original bug report reported a direct link to ESRI which was fixed,
this is where the "advertising" came in - which was never the original
intention and was fixed.

The "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" idea looks like it does a way better
job of communicating and is a positive result of this discussion.
- This information is mission critical for outreach and driving adoption of
open source, the top question this website and those new to open source ask
is "I am using XXX, what is available?"
- In many cases I do not know the proprietary software and a link to
wikipedia article would give a visitor like me useful context (of course we
can remove the link and just have text because the website is not for me).
- It also occurs to me to be respectful of trademark; listing competitors
is a good practice but it can be done with respect.

Maria of course no offence is intended to volunteers (myself) included.
Thanks for participating in this discussion.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 10:29, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS
> industry that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I
> refuse the idea of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are
> much more than pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities
> and limiting our projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for
> the volunteers behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why
> there are not "similar proprietary software".
> Thanks for removing the links.
> Best
> Maria
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett 
> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions ,
> OSGeo-Marketing 
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> Thanks Maria,
>
> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
> time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
>
> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
> proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
> help.
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jody
>> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
>> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
>> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
>> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
>> paying as OSGeo.
>> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the
>> related links.
>> Many thanks
>> Best,
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>
>>
>>  Messaggio originale 
>> Da: Jody Garnett 
>> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
>> A: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
>> hel...@web.de>
>> Cc: OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing <
>> market...@lists.osgeo.org>
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
>> website
>>
>> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that
>> this website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is
>> intended for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not
>> heard about open source yet.
>>
>> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
>> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
>> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
>> - since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
>> one I can easily answer.
>>
>> In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
>> Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
>> confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary
>> software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.
>>
>> I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects
>> taking competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dear OSGeo community

 I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
 "similar proprietary 

[OSGeo-Discuss] R: [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Maria Antonia Brovelli]

Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS industry 
that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I refuse the idea of 
"similar proprietary software" because our projects are much more than pieces 
of code. Behind our software there are communities and limiting our projects to 
pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for the volunteers behind them. We 
are more and diverse. This is the reason why there are not "similar proprietary 
software".
Thanks for removing the links.
Best
Maria




Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett 
Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
A: Maria Antonia Brovelli 
Cc: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky , 
OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing 

Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

Thanks Maria,

I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each time it 
is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".

I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into proprietary 
software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can help.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> wrote:
Dear Jody
Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting 
"similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary 
software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and I 
want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been paying as 
OSGeo.
I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the related 
links.
Many thanks
Best,
Maria





Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung


 Messaggio originale 
Da: Jody Garnett >
Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
A: Margherita Di Leo >, Helmut 
Kudrnovsky >
Cc: OSGeo Discussions 
>, OSGeo-Marketing 
>
Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this 
website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended for 
the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about open 
source yet.

These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a 
particular target market in mind filling in this information would really help! 
Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question - since I 
have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not one I can 
easily answer.

In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar 
Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too 
confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary software, 
linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.

I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects taking 
competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.


On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
> wrote:
Hi,

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> wrote:
Dear OSGeo community

I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to "similar 
proprietary products" [1] to your attention.

My comment there:

"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary Products" 
should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software out there, 
there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of e.g. a reviewed 
scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if they want to - may 
link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such links. As already 
elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such items are listed, but 
I can't see this happen. "

I agree. I don't understand it either.

I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects improving 
on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is the key rather 
than linking to proprietary software. One of such opportunities may be the 
upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce nice screenshots for 
documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on tiny little tasks for 
students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who will be our OSGeo's 
future.

Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for students 
may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see for example  

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks Maria,

I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".

I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
help.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> Dear Jody
> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
> paying as OSGeo.
> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the related
> links.
> Many thanks
> Best,
> Maria
>
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett 
> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Margherita Di Leo , Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions , OSGeo-Marketing <
> market...@lists.osgeo.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this
> website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended
> for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about
> open source yet.
>
> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
> - since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
> one I can easily answer.
>
> In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
> Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
> confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary
> software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.
>
> I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects
> taking competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear OSGeo community
>>>
>>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>>
>>> My comment there:
>>>
>>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>>
>>
>> I agree. I don't understand it either.
>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
>>> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for
>> students may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see
>> for example  https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/4777
>> 925899452416/task/5259692246827008/
>> I take the liberty of cc'ing the marketing committee, because it would be
>> nice to see some members joining the code-in mentors pool. Let us know that
>> you want to join, writing an email to gsoc-ad...@osgeo.org and I'll send
>> you the subscription form.
>> Hoping that I didn't go much off topic respect to the original meaning of
>> this email
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Margherita Di Leo
>> ___
>> Marketing mailing list
>> market...@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
>
>
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] presenting open source software or open source projects

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks Tom, you kind of confirm that listing software (program,
application,technology) right direction - even if it hurts my heart.

You are correct that "someone looking to migrate" is the primary audience
of this. Indeed the other email thread has a tradeoff of providing a
"Similar Proprietary Projects" or "Migrate From" heading.

You are not covering old ground, thank you for contributing.

On 20 September 2017 at 06:53, Tom Chadwin  wrote:

> > I would like to bring to discuss a question that we are struggling with
> for
> > the website/rebranding - do we present "open source software" or "open
> source
> > projects"?
>
> > I am personally having a hard time thinking in terms of software since I
> like
> > the fact that open source project encompasses both the technology and the
> > people.
>
> For me, "projects" is of interest to contributors, while "software" is of
> interest to potential users. The range of OSGeo software/projects is
> bewildering
> to an outsider, with several pieces of software fulfilling the same
> function.
> Someone looking to migrate (I am assuming that is the prime audience of
> this?)
> would presumably need to know which of the many software packages to
> investigate.
>
> I would argue therefore that having QGIS Desktop and QGIS Server (for
> example) as
> a single entity for this audience is not helpful. Surely potential users
> have an
> idea of what they want to use the software for, and including multiple
> applications together is confusing ("I wanted a WFS server, not a desktop
> GIS").
> Of course, a "See also" for each package would then allow eg the linking
> of QGIS
> Desktop to QGIS Server, and also QGIS Desktop to gvSIG - in other words,
> links to
> software which integrates, and links to alternative software.
>
> I wasn't on the marketing list discussion - apologies if I'm covering old
> ground.
>
> Tom
>
>
> Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
> Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
> Web: www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk/>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE - Disclaimer - This communication is from Northumberland
> National Park Authority (NNPA).The Authority’s head office and principal
> place of business is Eastburn, South Park, Hexham, Northumberland, NE46
> 1BS, United Kingdom. If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note
> that any form of disclosure, distribution, copying or use of this
> communication or the information in it or in any attachments is strictly
> prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in
> error, please delete the email and destroy any copies of it. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of NNPA.Contractors or potential contractors are reminded
> that a formal Order or Contract is needed for NNPA to be bound by any offer
> or acceptance of terms for the supply of goods or services Although this
> email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other
> defects which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are
> received, no responsibility is accepted by the NNPA for any loss or damage
> arising in any way from the receipt or use thereof. Computer systems of
> this Authority may be monitored and communications carried out on them
> recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] presenting open source software or open source projects

[Tom Chadwin]

> I would like to bring to discuss a question that we are struggling with for
> the website/rebranding - do we present "open source software" or "open source
> projects"?

> I am personally having a hard time thinking in terms of software since I like
> the fact that open source project encompasses both the technology and the
> people.

For me, "projects" is of interest to contributors, while "software" is of
interest to potential users. The range of OSGeo software/projects is bewildering
to an outsider, with several pieces of software fulfilling the same function.
Someone looking to migrate (I am assuming that is the prime audience of this?)
would presumably need to know which of the many software packages to 
investigate.

I would argue therefore that having QGIS Desktop and QGIS Server (for example) 
as
a single entity for this audience is not helpful. Surely potential users have an
idea of what they want to use the software for, and including multiple
applications together is confusing ("I wanted a WFS server, not a desktop GIS").
Of course, a "See also" for each package would then allow eg the linking of QGIS
Desktop to QGIS Server, and also QGIS Desktop to gvSIG - in other words, links 
to
software which integrates, and links to alternative software.

I wasn't on the marketing list discussion - apologies if I'm covering old 
ground.

Tom


Tom Chadwin, ICT Manager
Telephone: 01434 611530 Mob:
Web: 
www.northumberlandnationalpark.org.uk

IMPORTANT NOTICE - Disclaimer - This communication is from Northumberland 
National Park Authority (NNPA).The Authority’s head office and principal place 
of business is Eastburn, South Park, Hexham, Northumberland, NE46 1BS, United 
Kingdom. If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of 
disclosure, distribution, copying or use of this communication or the 
information in it or in any attachments is strictly prohibited and may be 
unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please delete the 
email and destroy any copies of it. Any views or opinions presented are solely 
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of NNPA.Contractors 
or potential contractors are reminded that a formal Order or Contract is needed 
for NNPA to be bound by any offer or acceptance of terms for the supply of 
goods or services Although this email and any attachments are believed to be 
free of any virus or other defects which might affect any computer or IT system 
into which they are received, no responsibility is accepted by the NNPA for any 
loss or damage arising in any way from the receipt or use thereof. Computer 
systems of this Authority may be monitored and communications carried out on 
them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for other 
lawful purpose.
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Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
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[OSGeo-Discuss] presenting open source software or open source projects

[Jody Garnett]

I would like to bring to discuss a question that we are struggling with for
the website/rebranding - do we present "open source software" or "open
source projects"?

This is not an easy answer, as the earlier discussion on this list did not
know how to recognize projects doing a rewrite (example OL2 --> OL3, or
project teams expanding and developing additional software components like
QGIS Server.

Here is the email from the marketing list:

The choose-a-project wizard is now working, we had to cut down some of the
> tags last week and change how the pages were done to make it happen.
> This touches on a conversation with Steve Feldman from the code sprint. As
> part of the focus exercise the home page  was
> changed to says "Choose your software" which then links to
> "choose-a-project".
> It does bring up two interesting cases:
> 1) http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/projects/qgis/
> QGIS - has several software projects now under one banner: QGIS
> Desktop, QGIS Server, more?
> This is kind of messing with the system (and resulting in oddities like
> QGIS being listed as a cloud processing service, I assume QGIS server could
> run in the cloud and qgis desktop offers processing).
> 2) http://osgeo.getinteractive.nl/projects/gvsig/
> Same thing, there are now multiple gvSig software projects: gvSIG
> Desktop, gvNIX, gvSIG Mobile, i3Geo



Recommendation for the beta website:
> - Making the QGIS Association page under Partners, linking to individual
> pages for QGIS and QGIS Server project pages.
> - Makin the gvSIG Association link to the individual software project
> pages for gvSIG Desktop, gvNIX, gvSIG  Mobile, i3Geo.
>

And Steven Feldman's reply:

My 1st thoughts on ‘projects’ and ‘software' are to look at definitions:
> *Project*:
>
>
> *"In contemporary business
>  and science
> , a project is an individual or
> collaborative enterprise, possibly involving research or design, that is
> carefully planned , usually by a
> project team, to achieve a particular aim.[1]
> A project may also be a
> set of interrelated tasks to be executed over a fixed period and within
> certain cost and other limitations.[2]
> It may be a temporary
> (rather than permanent) social systems
>  as work systems
>  that is constituted by teams
>  within or across organizations to
> accomplish particular tasks
>  under time
> constraints.[3]  A
> project may be a part of a wider programme management
> ” **https://en.*
> wikipedia.org/wiki/Project 
> *Software*:
> *"Computer software, or simply software, is a part of a computer system
>  that consists of data
>  or computer instructions,
> in contrast to the physical hardware
>  from which the system is
> built. In computer science
>  and software engineering
> , computer software is
> all information  processed
> by computer systems
> , programs
>  and data. Computer
> software includes computer programs
> , libraries
>  and related
> non-executable data , such
> as online documentation
>  or digital media
> .” 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software
>  *


> My interpretation:
> Each different application e.g. QGIS Desktop, QGIS server is ‘software’
> (or we could alternatively use ‘application’ or 'program')
> The QGIS Project is the umbrella organisation/collaboration/social
> construct/enterprise that encompasses and coordinates the individual
> software/applications/programs
> I think the important thing for us as a marketing group is to consider
> what these terms mean to potential users rather than how we use them
> internally (for our community ‘project' can be interchangeable
> with ‘software’).


I am personally having a hard time thinking in terms of software since I
like the fact that open source project encompasses both the technology and

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Jody Garnett]

Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this
website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended
for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about
open source yet.

These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
- since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
one I can easily answer.

In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary
software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.

I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects
taking competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.


On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>
>> Dear OSGeo community
>>
>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>
>> My comment there:
>>
>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>
>
> I agree. I don't understand it either.
>
>>
>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
>> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>>
>
> Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for
> students may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see
> for example  https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/
> 4777925899452416/task/5259692246827008/
> I take the liberty of cc'ing the marketing committee, because it would be
> nice to see some members joining the code-in mentors pool. Let us know that
> you want to join, writing an email to gsoc-ad...@osgeo.org and I'll send
> you the subscription form.
> Hoping that I didn't go much off topic respect to the original meaning of
> this email
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>>
>
> --
> Margherita Di Leo
> ___
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> market...@lists.osgeo.org
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[OSGeo-Discuss] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

[Helmut Kudrnovsky]

Dear OSGeo community
 
I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to "similar 
proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
 
My comment there:
 
"I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary Products" 
should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software out there, 
there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of e.g. a reviewed 
scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if they want to - may 
link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such links. As already 
elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such items are listed, but 
I can't see this happen. "
 
I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects improving 
on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is the key rather 
than linking to proprietary software. One of such opportunities may be the 
upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce nice screenshots for 
documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on tiny little tasks for 
students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young who will be our OSGeo's 
future.
 
Kind regards
Helmut
OSGeo charter member
 
[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100
[2] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-September/036217.html
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