Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Angelos Tzotsos 

Hi all,

This is exactly what I had in mind.
We cannot really worry that people might think we are promoting 
proprietary software, that is not the case.
We can worry that someone might find a way to sue us for using their 
brand in our promotional materials
Don't forget that "Microsoft loves Linux" these days but they still 
threat to sue whoever does not pay "Android fees" to them


Best,
Angelos

On 09/21/2017 11:28 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:

Hi all,

Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about how 
to use its products name, web link and logo here: 
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the 
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions 
provided by ESRI.

Cheers,
신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com

보낸 사람: Sandro Santilli
보낸 날짜: 2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
받는 사람: Jody Garnett
참조: OSGeo Discussions; Helmut Kudrnovsky; OSGeo-Marketing
제목: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:


How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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--
Angelos Tzotsos, PhD
Charter Member
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Basques, Bob (CI-StPaul) 
All,

I’ve been following this thread and this does seem like a good way to address 
most if not all the thoughts.

Another side to this would be in the ability to let the user(s) add to the 
keyword list of “other” geo products out there, whether FOSS or Prop.   It 
would allow for a useability matrix to build up over time as well, maybe even 
going so far as to grab a capabilities list of some sort from the users and 
consequently a mechanism for targeting new cabailities in the software being 
developed under the OSGeo banner based on these user capabilities/needs and a 
derived capability matrix.

bobb


On Sep 21, 2017, at 4:04 AM, Venkatesh Raghavan 
> wrote:

Dear All,

If the aim is only to help new users who are not aware of
Free and Open Source Geospatial Software, it could be
better to have a dedicated page which allows new user
to input keywords (e.g. the present software they are using,
of the OGC standards compliance they are looking for etc.)
and returning the results pointing to appropriate OSGeo
software).

If I understood correctly, I think this is what Sandro has been
suggesting and I like this approach.

As I already commented on the github ticket 1], I do not think
it is necessary to have an item such as "similar proprietary software"
or "Migrate From XXX" (also, we should rather propose "Migration *form* YYY to 
Free and Open Source
tool", where YYY would be the user input keyword).

Also, some of the names of Proprietary products are registered as trademarks,
and it could be better to avoid using these names directly on the OSGeo website.

Best

Venka

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100

On 9/21/2017 5:15 PM, Sandro Santilli wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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is nothing left to take away.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Massimiliano Cannata 
Hi,
My 2 cents...

Why not just make a section for migrate from and put there a number of
solutions for migration. There's not only one solution to arcgis and maybe
not just a single software but a combination of free software.

Aside of a project put a link to that section, to drive the users to all
the options OSGeo propose...

This is more fare and neutral... From my point of view.

Maxi

Il 21 set 2017 10:28 AM, "Sanghee Shin" <shs...@gaia3d.com> ha scritto:

Hi all,



Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about
how to use its products name, web link and logo here:
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions
provided by ESRI.



Cheers,

신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com



*보낸 사람: *Sandro Santilli <s...@kbt.io>
*보낸 날짜: *2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
*받는 사람: *Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
*참조: *OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>; Helmut Kudrnovsky
<hel...@web.de>; OSGeo-Marketing <market...@lists.osgeo.org>
*제목: *Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website



On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:



> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just

> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would

> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the
project

> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.



It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and

link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too

"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd

still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written

but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar

software: you search for  you get .



The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains

the name because it explicitly bashes it :)



--strk;

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Venkatesh Raghavan 

Dear All,

If the aim is only to help new users who are not aware of
Free and Open Source Geospatial Software, it could be
better to have a dedicated page which allows new user
to input keywords (e.g. the present software they are using,
of the OGC standards compliance they are looking for etc.)
and returning the results pointing to appropriate OSGeo
software).

If I understood correctly, I think this is what Sandro has been
suggesting and I like this approach.

As I already commented on the github ticket 1], I do not think
it is necessary to have an item such as "similar proprietary software"
or "Migrate From XXX" (also, we should rather propose "Migration *form* 
YYY to Free and Open Source

tool", where YYY would be the user input keyword).

Also, some of the names of Proprietary products are registered as 
trademarks,
and it could be better to avoid using these names directly on the OSGeo 
website.


Best

Venka

[1] https://github.com/OSGeo/osgeo/issues/100

On 9/21/2017 5:15 PM, Sandro Santilli wrote:

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:


How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread María Arias de Reyna 
On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:47 AM, Andy Turner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It is possible to come up with a set of tasks and tests used to confirm and 
> classify what software are capable of. Working out what is included and how 
> this is included is non-trivial and I think this is in the domain of the Open 
> Geospatial Consortium and the standards defining organisations generally. 
> Sorry, I've not been engaging there of late, but when I did interoperability 
> was the primary goal and standardisation of data and services and how to use 
> the services was key. Anyway, there can be other descriptors of 
> software/services too, like the nature of the user interfaces (whether there 
> are optional GUI/command line/whether things operate via web protocols and 
> indeed whether it is more a single desktop application or something that has 
> more of a client/server architecture, whether it is modular, whether there is 
> an API (and what the nature of this is), what language(s) it is written in 
> and possibly loads of other things).
>
> Sorry, I digress, let me try to get to the point...
>
> If there was a breakdown of what functions there are and how the software 
> works then this may help in identifying not only similarities between one 
> FOSS offering and other proprietary ones, but between FOSS ones. This could 
> be useful in a number of ways, one of which might be identifying whether 
> there is a single FOSS offering that does everything that a user currently 
> wants to do (and may do already using other software).
>
> Migrating from using one set of software to using another to perform the same 
> tasks can be quite a job for any organisation. It might require a significant 
> amount of research, the development of educational resources and training.
>
> It would be great if there was a set of educational resources that show how 
> to perform tasks in different software (and indeed using different 
> programming languages). Whatever the platform, there are metrics on the 
> complexity the level of automation and the computational efficiency that can 
> be developed. With a set of metrics it would be easier to measure the 
> similarity and difference between software.
>
> Sorry, having rambled on I realise that I have gone a bit off topic, I expect 
> this has already been suggested and is being worked on, I've dared not to 
> read the entire thread before posting, and I have very little time to help 
> get this in place! Also I have not replied to the very last post on this 
> thread but one a bit back as these others have spun off in other important 
> directions.
>
> Anyway, you have my moral support, thanks for all your efforts developing the 
> OSGeo website, educational resources, services and software.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andy
> http://www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/people/a.turner/index.html
>



Hi Andy,

Somehow we are already including this. Although, it's true, we didin't
distinguish between client and server, which could be quite confusing
(to improve!). For example, for GeoNetwork, find attached image.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Andy Turner 
Hi,

It is possible to come up with a set of tasks and tests used to confirm and 
classify what software are capable of. Working out what is included and how 
this is included is non-trivial and I think this is in the domain of the Open 
Geospatial Consortium and the standards defining organisations generally. 
Sorry, I've not been engaging there of late, but when I did interoperability 
was the primary goal and standardisation of data and services and how to use 
the services was key. Anyway, there can be other descriptors of 
software/services too, like the nature of the user interfaces (whether there 
are optional GUI/command line/whether things operate via web protocols and 
indeed whether it is more a single desktop application or something that has 
more of a client/server architecture, whether it is modular, whether there is 
an API (and what the nature of this is), what language(s) it is written in and 
possibly loads of other things).

Sorry, I digress, let me try to get to the point...

If there was a breakdown of what functions there are and how the software works 
then this may help in identifying not only similarities between one FOSS 
offering and other proprietary ones, but between FOSS ones. This could be 
useful in a number of ways, one of which might be identifying whether there is 
a single FOSS offering that does everything that a user currently wants to do 
(and may do already using other software).

Migrating from using one set of software to using another to perform the same 
tasks can be quite a job for any organisation. It might require a significant 
amount of research, the development of educational resources and training.

It would be great if there was a set of educational resources that show how to 
perform tasks in different software (and indeed using different programming 
languages). Whatever the platform, there are metrics on the complexity the 
level of automation and the computational efficiency that can be developed. 
With a set of metrics it would be easier to measure the similarity and 
difference between software. 

Sorry, having rambled on I realise that I have gone a bit off topic, I expect 
this has already been suggested and is being worked on, I've dared not to read 
the entire thread before posting, and I have very little time to help get this 
in place! Also I have not replied to the very last post on this thread but one 
a bit back as these others have spun off in other important directions.

Anyway, you have my moral support, thanks for all your efforts developing the 
OSGeo website, educational resources, services and software.

Best wishes,

Andy
http://www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/people/a.turner/index.html
  


-Original Message-
From: Discuss [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of María Arias 
de Reyna
Sent: 21 September 2017 09:23
To: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>; Maria Antonia Brovelli 
<maria.brove...@polimi.it>; OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>; 
OSGeo-Marketing <market...@lists.osgeo.org>; Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Sandro Santilli <s...@kbt.io> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
>> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just 
>> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It 
>> would be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to 
>> the project page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from 
>> MapInfo.
>
> It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and 
> link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too 
> "offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd 
> still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written 
> but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
> software: you search for  you get .
>
> The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains 
> the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

That would work very good if we use for example google ads. But still, for 
people who are lookiing for "how to migrate to FLOSS", a non-linked name could 
be useful. I mean: they exist, they are there, they are a fact. We don't need 
to promote them to be able to say "if you already use this, you can move to 
this".

And now I realize I put a link on the GeoNetwork page just because I copypasted 
from another project :) Bad María, bad.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Mateusz Loskot 
On 21 September 2017 at 10:15, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
>> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
>> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
>> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
>> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
>
> It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
> link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
> "offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
> still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
> but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
> software: you search for  you get .
>
> The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
> the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

OSGeo Sponsors:

2007:Autodesk,LizardTech,INGRES
2008:Autodesk,LizardTech,INGRES,PCI Geomatics
2009: -//-
2010: -//-
...

Sandro, I'm glad you can cope with a name or two, I guess.

Best regards,
-- 
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Sanghee Shin 
Hi all, 

Let’s go back to the legal issues. ESRI provides its clear guidelines about how 
to use its products name, web link and logo here: 
http://www.esri.com/legal/weblink-logoagreement. Please read through the 
license agreement. I don’t think we can meet all the terms and conditions 
provided by ESRI. 

Cheers, 
신상희
---
Shin, Sanghee
Gaia3D, Inc. - The GeoSpatial Company
www.gaia3d.com 

보낸 사람: Sandro Santilli
보낸 날짜: 2017년 9월 21일 목요일 오후 5:19
받는 사람: Jody Garnett
참조: OSGeo Discussions; Helmut Kudrnovsky; OSGeo-Marketing
제목: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 08:33:05PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

> How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
> displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
> be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
> page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.

It's different degrees of annoyance. I guess a brand-less and
link-less list of names of proprietary products would not be too
"offensive" for me (assuming spam filtering lets it pass) but I'd
still prefer an hidden keyword. Something that you never see written
but is recognized by the search engine to give you back a similar
software: you search for  you get .

The "like Photoshop, only better" motto I like even when it contains
the name because it explicitly bashes it :)

--strk;
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-21 Thread Jody Garnett 
That can work Sandro, and thanks for participating on the ticket.

I do find value in listing those keywords (under an appropriate heading) to
reassure people they have found what they are looking for. Indeed I hope
these pages will be shared as a link when people ask "You are still using
MapInfo?
Try this ..." (but that is step 3 "enthuse").

How much of your initial concern was providing a link? Or is it just
displaying the name (switching to MapInfo for the example here). It would
be kind of nice if the it behaved like a keyword, and linked to the project
page short listing all the projects that one can migrate to from MapInfo.
--
Jody

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 14:33, Sandro Santilli  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 01:19:48PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:
>
> > The reason I want to keep the names (don't care about the links) is
> address
> > the needs of non-commuity website visitors. To answer the question "I use
> > XXX, how can you help me?"
>
> As I wrote on the ticket already, I like the idea of answering such
> question, but having the XXX name on each page does not answer it
> because it would require people to know the answer before asking the
> question.
>
> How hard would it be to turn those XXX into keywords so that the
> a search for "XXX" returns related project pages ?
>
> --strk;
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Miles Fidelman 

Jody,

This is a very good point.

(comments continue below...)

On 9/20/17 1:19 PM, Jody Garnett wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 12:44, Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> wrote:


Jody this is not respectful of me and the community.  Might I know
why the people working for the project want ABSOLUTELY to keep the
names and links to proprietary software on our open source
software website?


I feel a bit of pressure to express myself exactly correctly on this 
outreach topic; or risk people missing the point ...  The outreach 
approach was determined months ago when going over our target audience 
(literally what the website is for). Te website was defined with these 
visitor journey's in mind...


The primary audience for the website is non-community members:
- ESRI GIS Professional (GISP), IT Professionals, Academic Faculty, 
Academic Students, Science and Research, Influencers & Decision 
makers, Software Developers
- the communication goal is to promote awareness - asking 
non-community members to consider and evaluate
- the next goal is adoption - assisting non-community members in 
adopting open source
- the final foal is impress - having non-community members be 
enthusiastic and advocate open source


The secondary audience is community members:
- osgeo members, partners, service providers, sponsors, contributors
- the steps awarness, adoption, impress reflect contributing to open 
source
- many of the community member activities are taking place on the wiki 
and are happy to remain there.




When talking to the broader GIS community, it's important to keep in 
mind two things:


- most GIS users are more familiar with ESRI & Google tools

- most of what passes for standards are either defacto (ESRI & Google 
formats & APIs), or developed by OGC - which is an industry consortium


- lots of folks utilize a combination of tools - some open source, some 
not (e.g., folks who use MapServer to serve databases maintained on ArcGIS).


Taken together, if the intent of the site is to educate & support GIS 
users, and promote open source geo tools - then the site really has to 
address compatibility, and hybrid environments.  Links to commercial 
equivalents - perhaps with reviews and comparisons - provides a lot of 
value (e.g., when trying to figure out how to use OpenLayers to view 
layers that come from a mix of ESRI, Google, and OGC-compliant sources.


Miles Fidelman



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Steven Feldman 
Maria

It appears that there is a misunderstanding (at best) about the target 
audiences of the web site. Our primary objective is to use the new web site as 
a tool for outreach to people who are not already committed to using open 
source geo. Hence the focus on enabling/encouraging/informing ‘migration’

You may believe that you are representing the views of people who voted for you 
but you should also recognise that there are others within the community who 
may or may not have voted for you who hold equally strong but opposing views. 
The community does not speak with one voice nor does it currently have a 
mechanism to poll opinion on detailed topics such as this. I think it would be 
a mistake for board members to seek to impose their views on the marketing (or 
any other committee).

Best
__
Steven


> On 20 Sep 2017, at 21:19, Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jody this is not respectful of me and the community.  Might I know why the 
> people working for the project want ABSOLUTELY to keep the names and links to 
> proprietary software on our open source software website? 
> 
> Anyhow, I think that the Board can express ourselves about this point. I 
> remember you  that we were voted and that the people who voted me don't want 
> those names and links. I'm speaking on behalf of many. In case, we will ask 
> the whole community to express ourselves about that. 
> I want to apologise with the people working at the website if my tone could 
> have seen as rude. Who knows me, knows that I'm not a native speaker and 
> sometimes my words seem to be worse than what I have in mind. I want to 
> claridy that I appreciate a lot their work ( I suppose they appreciate my 
> work all the same) and I thank them with all my hearth.  But absolutely I 
> don't agree with this choice and I explained you also the reasons.
> Best
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
> 
> 
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com> 
> Data: 20/09/17 21:24 (GMT+01:00) 
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli <maria.brove...@polimi.it> 
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> <hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, OSGeo-Marketing 
> <market...@lists.osgeo.org> 
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website 
> 
> Maria your request is at odds with the goal of this website.
> 
> Already I have private chats about participants being discouraged. I do not 
> think that using the board to control the process is a productive or 
> respectful of those working on the project.
> 
> Please reconsider how to interactive positively with the community. 
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM Maria Antonia Brovelli 
> <maria.brove...@polimi.it <mailto:maria.brove...@polimi.it>> wrote:
> If somebody is interested in knowing more about foss4g, we are here. If 
> somebody, using whichever proprietary software,  wants to have more pieces of 
> information they can contact us and we will provide them with all the 
> information they need. 
> Contacting and working with us is a definitely different attitude than simply 
>  downloading and using. And we are interested in the first type of people 
> because we want our community growing. 
> Therefore no needs at all to put the names and links to proprietary software.
> Please again remote them.
> I'll open a loomio vote of the Board about that.
> Have a good evening
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 01:19:48PM -0700, Jody Garnett wrote:

> The reason I want to keep the names (don't care about the links) is address
> the needs of non-commuity website visitors. To answer the question "I use
> XXX, how can you help me?"

As I wrote on the ticket already, I like the idea of answering such
question, but having the XXX name on each page does not answer it
because it would require people to know the answer before asking the
question.

How hard would it be to turn those XXX into keywords so that the
a search for "XXX" returns related project pages ?

--strk;

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Jody Garnett 
Maria your request is at odds with the goal of this website.

Already I have private chats about participants being discouraged. I do not
think that using the board to control the process is a productive or
respectful of those working on the project.

Please reconsider how to interactive positively with the community.
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:10 PM Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> If somebody is interested in knowing more about foss4g, we are here. If
> somebody, using whichever proprietary software,  wants to have more pieces
> of information they can contact us and we will provide them with all the
> information they need.
> Contacting and working with us is a definitely different attitude than
> simply  downloading and using. And we are interested in the first type of
> people because we want our community growing.
> Therefore no needs at all to put the names and links to proprietary
> software.
> Please again remote them.
> I'll open a loomio vote of the Board about that.
> Have a good evening
> Maria
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
> Data: 20/09/17 20:40 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli <maria.brove...@polimi.it>
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>,
> OSGeo-Marketing <market...@lists.osgeo.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> I like your language that our open source projects are much more than
> proprietary software - it is this reason we are focusing on a team photo
> for each page (rather than a screen shot of the software).
>
> The original bug report reported a direct link to ESRI which was fixed,
> this is where the "advertising" came in - which was never the original
> intention and was fixed.
>
> The "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" idea looks like it does a way better
> job of communicating and is a positive result of this discussion.
> - This information is mission critical for outreach and driving adoption
> of open source, the top question this website and those new to open source
> ask is "I am using XXX, what is available?"
> - In many cases I do not know the proprietary software and a link to
> wikipedia article would give a visitor like me useful context (of course we
> can remove the link and just have text because the website is not for me).
> - It also occurs to me to be respectful of trademark; listing competitors
> is a good practice but it can be done with respect.
>
> Maria of course no offence is intended to volunteers (myself) included.
> Thanks for participating in this discussion.
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 10:29, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>
>> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS
>> industry that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I
>> refuse the idea of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are
>> much more than pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities
>> and limiting our projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for
>> the volunteers behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why
>> there are not "similar proprietary software".
>> Thanks for removing the links.
>> Best
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>
>>
>> -------- Messaggio originale ----
>> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
>> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
>> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli <maria.brove...@polimi.it>
>> Cc: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky <
>> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>,
>> OSGeo-Marketing <market...@lists.osgeo.org>
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
>> website
>>
>> Thanks Maria,
>>
>> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
>> time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
>>
>> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
>> proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
>> help.
>>
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>>
>> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
>> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jody
>>> Personally I a

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Jody Garnett 
I like your language that our open source projects are much more than
proprietary software - it is this reason we are focusing on a team photo
for each page (rather than a screen shot of the software).

The original bug report reported a direct link to ESRI which was fixed,
this is where the "advertising" came in - which was never the original
intention and was fixed.

The "Migrate from: ArcMap, MapInfo" idea looks like it does a way better
job of communicating and is a positive result of this discussion.
- This information is mission critical for outreach and driving adoption of
open source, the top question this website and those new to open source ask
is "I am using XXX, what is available?"
- In many cases I do not know the proprietary software and a link to
wikipedia article would give a visitor like me useful context (of course we
can remove the link and just have text because the website is not for me).
- It also occurs to me to be respectful of trademark; listing competitors
is a good practice but it can be done with respect.

Maria of course no offence is intended to volunteers (myself) included.
Thanks for participating in this discussion.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 10:29, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> Jody, I see very difficult  the existence of a  vast majority of GIS
> industry that has honestly not heard about open source yet.  Anyway I
> refuse the idea of "similar proprietary software" because our projects are
> much more than pieces of code. Behind our software there are communities
> and limiting our projects to pieces  of code is offensive and insulting for
> the volunteers behind them. We are more and diverse. This is the reason why
> there are not "similar proprietary software".
> Thanks for removing the links.
> Best
> Maria
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
> Data: 20/09/17 18:53 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Maria Antonia Brovelli <maria.brove...@polimi.it>
> Cc: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>, OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>,
> OSGeo-Marketing <market...@lists.osgeo.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> Thanks Maria,
>
> I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
> time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".
>
> I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
> proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
> help.
>
> --
> Jody Garnett
>
> On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
> maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jody
>> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
>> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
>> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
>> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
>> paying as OSGeo.
>> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the
>> related links.
>> Many thanks
>> Best,
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>>
>>
>> ---- Messaggio originale 
>> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
>> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
>> A: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky <
>> hel...@web.de>
>> Cc: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, OSGeo-Marketing <
>> market...@lists.osgeo.org>
>> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
>> website
>>
>> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that
>> this website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is
>> intended for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not
>> heard about open source yet.
>>
>> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
>> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
>> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
>> - since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
>> one I can easily answer.
>>
>> In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
>> Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
>> confrontational? I would also

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Jody Garnett 
Thanks Maria,

I reject the idea that we are advertising proprietary software, so each
time it is phrased that way of course everyone well say "no".

I want to help our software reach visitors that feel locked into
proprietary software, please recognize this goal and how "migrate from" can
help.

--
Jody Garnett

On 20 September 2017 at 09:49, Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> wrote:

> Dear Jody
> Personally I agree with Helmut and I don't see any necessity of putting
> "similar proprietary software" on our web pages. I don't think proprietary
> software need to be advertized. We are a Foundation about Open Software and
> I want to see the open source projects on the website that we have been
> paying as OSGeo.
> I ask please to remove the "similar proprietary software"  and the related
> links.
> Many thanks
> Best,
> Maria
>
>
>
>
>
> Inviato dal mio dispositivo Samsung
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Jody Garnett <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
> Data: 20/09/17 14:45 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>, Helmut Kudrnovsky <
> hel...@web.de>
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, OSGeo-Marketing <
> market...@lists.osgeo.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo
> website
>
> Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this
> website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended
> for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about
> open source yet.
>
> These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
> particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
> help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
> - since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
> one I can easily answer.
>
> In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
> Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
> confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary
> software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.
>
> I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects
> taking competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo <direg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear OSGeo community
>>>
>>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>>
>>> My comment there:
>>>
>>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>>
>>
>> I agree. I don't understand it either.
>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
>>> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for
>> students may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see
>> for example  https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/4777
>> 925899452416/task/5259692246827008/
>> I take the liberty of cc'ing the marketing committee, because it would be
>> nice to see some members joining the code-in mentors pool. Let us know that
>> you want to join, writing an email to gsoc-ad...@osgeo.org and I'll send
>> you the subscription form.
>> Hoping that I didn't go much off topic respect to the original meaning of
>> this email
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Margherita Di Leo
>> ___
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>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Marketing] Proprietary GIS on our OSGeo website

2017-09-20 Thread Jody Garnett 
Thanks for the discussion on the bug report. Please keep in mind that this
website is written by us, but it is not intended for us - it is intended
for the vast majority of the GIS industry that has honestly not heard about
open source yet.

These sections are optional, if one of our open source projects has a
particular target market in mind filling in this information would really
help! Indeed when I go to a normal GIS conference this is the top question
- since I have not had a chance to use the proprietary software it is not
one I can easily answer.

In the above bug report I would like to change the heading from "Similar
Proprietary Products" to "Migrate From", but perhaps that is too
confrontational? I would also like to avoid advertising proprietary
software, linking to the associated wikipedia entry if appropriate.

I am not interested in reciprocity, I am interested in OSGeo projects
taking competition to the GIS industry which as been missing.


On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 5:09 AM Margherita Di Leo 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:
>
>> Dear OSGeo community
>>
>> I want to bring you a discussion on a github ticket about linking to
>> "similar proprietary products" [1] to your attention.
>>
>> My comment there:
>>
>> "I support and concur with Venka that the item "Similar Proprietary
>> Products" should be removed. There isn't only one proprietary GIS software
>> out there, there are several others. IMHO such comparisons may be part of
>> e.g. a reviewed scientific paper/elaboration, where our OSGeo projects - if
>> they want to - may link to. I see no added value for OSGeo to serve such
>> links. As already elsewhere mentioned by me, reciprocity is the key if such
>> items are listed, but I can't see this happen. "
>>
>
> I agree. I don't understand it either.
>
>>
>> I'm pretty much convinced that more effort to help our OSGeo projects
>> improving on every level (e.g. documentation, reach out, testing, etc) is
>> the key rather than linking to proprietary software. One of such
>> opportunities may be the upcoming Google Code In (GCI) 2017 e.g. to produce
>> nice screenshots for documentation, produce some fancy videos etc. based on
>> tiny little tasks for students aged 13 to 17. A good invest in the young
>> who will be our OSGeo's future.
>>
>
> Thanks for mentioning that, Helli. May I add that suitable tasks for
> students may include design of web pages and / or promotional material, see
> for example  https://codein.withgoogle.com/archive/2015/organization/
> 4777925899452416/task/5259692246827008/
> I take the liberty of cc'ing the marketing committee, because it would be
> nice to see some members joining the code-in mentors pool. Let us know that
> you want to join, writing an email to gsoc-ad...@osgeo.org and I'll send
> you the subscription form.
> Hoping that I didn't go much off topic respect to the original meaning of
> this email
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>>
>
> --
> Margherita Di Leo
> ___
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