RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Like the subject of patents from a couple weeks ago, we need to be careful of painting these things with too broad a brush. I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients. Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose. I'm not sure what you mean by this -- lobbying? Campaign contributions? Yes, MrSID is widely used in parts of the federal government but it is certainly not the case that LizardTech has ever thrown plenty of greenbacks around to get anyone to use our file format. (I doubt the various owners of ECW ever have either.) I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies. In the case of one very prominent use of MrSID in the US federal government, an open standard solution was explicitly considered as an alternative, but it was notably rejected in large part because of the lack of penetration and technical expertise in the target marketplace and ecosystem. I actually see a lot of explicit government consideration of open standards and open source software -- and it gets better every year. However, adoption of new technologies (when done right!) requires evaluation of a myriad of criteria, only one of which is open access. -mpg (not speaking officially for LizardTech) -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:10 AM To: punk...@eidesis.org; OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in I'm a long ways from Washington DC and a lot closer to the Silicon Valley, which may be a reason why I perceive different attitudes. I do think the new US Administration seems friendlier towards open source software. Still, when I think about the fight over using ODF in Maryland and other similar situations I realize open source software still has an uphill battle in many parts of the United States. This may even be truer in the geospatial arena than in others. Autodesk and ESRI may be great corporate citizens, but there is no doubt in my mind that the control software monopolies, especially in the government market. This isn't just true at the federal level, but at the state and local level as well. I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients. Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose. I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies. (I do know of a couple cases where some state agencies in California are making an effort to use open source GIS desktop software.) Things may be very different in the web-mapping world. I'm talking about desktop software, since that is what I deal with 98% of the time. But, like you, I speak from personal experience, and don't have any hard facts or statistics to back up my wild claims. :] Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:53 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Landon Blakelbl...@ksninc.com wrote: Cameron wrote: Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. I believe governments in Canada are much more supportive of open source software than governments in the United States. In my experience, the attitude towards open source software held by many organizations
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
MPG, I didn't mean to shine a spotlight on the USDA's use of MRSID. It is one of several examples of an attitude I was trying to describe. I think you and I respectfully disagree with one another on one aspect of this debate. In my humble opinion sharing data acquired with tax payer funding in a format that is easily accessed without the use of proprietary software should be the most important factor in a file format decision by a government agency. (Well, maybe the second most important. The most important is the license that data is released under.) A company is well within its rights to use and promote a proprietary file format. I admit that file format may even have awesome benefits when compared to the best equivalent open file format. Just don't ask me to be happy when my government decides to use this proprietary file format. I think it short changes the citizens of the government and give that company an unfair advantage over its competitors. I'd much rather see the government support a company that was trying to build its business around open technology standards. In my opinion, you can't have it all. If you want to build your business model around a proprietary file format like DWG or MRSID you should be prepared to deal with a little push back from open source and open technology advocates, especially when their money (in the form of tax dollars) is involved. One of the greatest things ESRI ever did was publish the Shapefile specification. I don't doubt they have a software monopoly of sorts, but I will always respect them for that move. In many respects it has changed my view of their company. I don't know that the free software movement on the geospatial side of things would have been widely adopted without that standard way to share data. But alas, I am just one man and my opinion doesn't count for much in the greater scheme of things! I appreciate having an open source advocate like you at LizardTech, and please don't take my e-mail as a personal attack. The use of open file formats by our governments is just something I feel strongly about. Landon -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:23 AM To: OSGeo Discussions; punk...@eidesis.org Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in Like the subject of patents from a couple weeks ago, we need to be careful of painting these things with too broad a brush. I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients. Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose. I'm not sure what you mean by this -- lobbying? Campaign contributions? Yes, MrSID is widely used in parts of the federal government but it is certainly not the case that LizardTech has ever thrown plenty of greenbacks around to get anyone to use our file format. (I doubt the various owners of ECW ever have either.) I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies. In the case of one very prominent use of MrSID in the US federal government, an open standard solution was explicitly considered as an alternative, but it was notably rejected in large part because of the lack of penetration and technical expertise in the target marketplace and ecosystem. I actually see a lot of explicit government consideration of open standards and open source software -- and it gets better every year. However, adoption of new technologies (when done right!) requires evaluation of a myriad of criteria, only one of which is open access. -mpg (not speaking officially for LizardTech) -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Landon Blake Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:10 AM To: punk...@eidesis.org; OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in I'm a long ways from Washington DC and a lot closer to the Silicon Valley, which may be a reason why I perceive different attitudes. I do think the new US Administration seems friendlier towards open source software. Still, when I think about the fight over using ODF in Maryland and other similar situations I realize open source software still has an uphill battle in many parts
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
All, Chiming in here on this thread, good reading BTW . . . I would like to expand somewhat on the idea that Open Formats should be the number one consideration. I would personally like to see the data be primarily released in an open format, and then these other market related aspects taken into account. If there seems to be more users of a certain type, then by all means accommodate them, but setting out initially with an open form will further reuse of the data much faster (IMO) and allow for others to reuse much easier. Too bad we could get companies to just serve things up in their repsective data forms as services and be done with it. If it's to their advantage they can maintain the data in their desired form. bobb Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com wrote: MPG, I didn't mean to shine a spotlight on the USDA's use of MRSID. It is one of several examples of an attitude I was trying to describe. I think you and I respectfully disagree with one another on one aspect of this debate. In my humble opinion sharing data acquired with tax payer funding in a format that is easily accessed without the use of proprietary software should be the most important factor in a file format decision by a government agency. (Well, maybe the second most important. The most important is the license that data is released under.) A company is well within its rights to use and promote a proprietary file format. I admit that file format may even have awesome benefits when compared to the best equivalent open file format. Just don't ask me to be happy when my government decides to use this proprietary file format. I think it short changes the citizens of the government and give that company an unfair advantage over its competitors. I'd much rather see the government support a company that was trying to build its business around open technology standards. In my opinion, you can't have it all. If you want to build your business model around a proprietary file format like DWG or MRSID you should be prepared to deal with a little push back from open source and open technology advocates, especially when their money (in the form of tax dollars) is involved. One of the greatest things ESRI ever did was publish the Shapefile specification. I don't doubt they have a software monopoly of sorts, but I will always respect them for that move. In many respects it has changed my view of their company. I don't know that the free software movement on the geospatial side of things would have been widely adopted without that standard way to share data. But alas, I am just one man and my opinion doesn't count for much in the greater scheme of things! I appreciate having an open source advocate like you at LizardTech, and please don't take my e-mail as a personal attack. The use of open file formats by our governments is just something I feel strongly about. Landon -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:23 AM To: OSGeo Discussions; punk...@eidesis.org Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in Like the subject of patents from a couple weeks ago, we need to be careful of painting these things with too broad a brush. I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients. Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose. I'm not sure what you mean by this -- lobbying? Campaign contributions? Yes, MrSID is widely used in parts of the federal government but it is certainly not the case that LizardTech has ever thrown plenty of greenbacks around to get anyone to use our file format. (I doubt the various owners of ECW ever have either.) I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies. In the case of one very prominent use of MrSID in the US federal government, an open standard solution was explicitly considered as an alternative, but it was notably rejected in large part because of the lack of penetration and technical expertise in the target marketplace and ecosystem. I actually see a lot of explicit government consideration of open standards and open source software -- and it gets better every year. However, adoption of new technologies (when done right!) requires
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
All, This is a great thought-provoking discussion. Thinking about the U.S. geodata released in the MrSID format. I think this may be the best way to show the return on the taxpayers' investment in the data. The vast majority of citizens don't want to manipulate these datasets; they only want to view them. The MrSID format with USGS topo maps and USDA county compressed mosaics makes them available to many more people than a more open format would. For those of us who want to manipulate these datasets with our geospatial OSS, alternatives are available. Perhaps someday there will be a widely adopted open format that can compete with MrSID but for today the MrSID option provides for the best access for the largest number of people. Regards, Richard On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com wrote: MPG, I didn't mean to shine a spotlight on the USDA's use of MRSID. It is one of several examples of an attitude I was trying to describe. I think you and I respectfully disagree with one another on one aspect of this debate. In my humble opinion sharing data acquired with tax payer funding in a format that is easily accessed without the use of proprietary software should be the most important factor in a file format decision by a government agency. (Well, maybe the second most important. The most important is the license that data is released under.) A company is well within its rights to use and promote a proprietary file format. I admit that file format may even have awesome benefits when compared to the best equivalent open file format. Just don't ask me to be happy when my government decides to use this proprietary file format. I think it short changes the citizens of the government and give that company an unfair advantage over its competitors. I'd much rather see the government support a company that was trying to build its business around open technology standards. In my opinion, you can't have it all. If you want to build your business model around a proprietary file format like DWG or MRSID you should be prepared to deal with a little push back from open source and open technology advocates, especially when their money (in the form of tax dollars) is involved. One of the greatest things ESRI ever did was publish the Shapefile specification. I don't doubt they have a software monopoly of sorts, but I will always respect them for that move. In many respects it has changed my view of their company. I don't know that the free software movement on the geospatial side of things would have been widely adopted without that standard way to share data. But alas, I am just one man and my opinion doesn't count for much in the greater scheme of things! I appreciate having an open source advocate like you at LizardTech, and please don't take my e-mail as a personal attack. The use of open file formats by our governments is just something I feel strongly about. Landon ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Richard, You make an interesting point. I would respond to your argument in this way: Richard wrote: I think this may be the best way to show the return on the taxpayers' investment in the data. The vast majority of citizens don't want to manipulate these datasets; they only want to view them. The MrSID format with USGS topo maps and USDA county compressed mosaics makes them available to many more people than a more open format would. If you can only view the data, you really miss out on a lot of its value. To really benefit from the data you need to be able to manipulate it, and to convert it to/from other formats. How useful would shapefiles be if we could only look at them? I think the main argument for using MRSID is the file compression. But this is the government we are talking about. Tile the image data and put up an easy to use index online that allows people to download just what they need. Users that want to access images for entire counties are likely going to have the computing power to use that much data anyways. In my mind, the issue can be boiled down to this: MRSID doesn't have to be a closed file format. Look at a company like Adobe. Governments around the world release tons of data in PDF format. But Adobe publishes a spec for this format. This has important implications for the adoption of the format, for the ability to archive, for dealing with vendor lock-in, and for supporting development of open source software. Adobe makes a killing on PDF software, but if you wanted to write an open source library to write and manipulate PDF files you could. (iText is an example.) The bottom line is that closed file formats give a company like LizardTech a way to lock out competition from other commercial companies or from open source developers. They don't have to keep the file format closed, they choose to do so. They could publish a spec if they wanted and the USDA would loose none of the benefits of the MRSID file format. If there was a published spec I would have no problem with the USDA using MRSID or with them paying LizardTech for software and support because of their choice of this format. I'd wager LizardTech keeps the MRSID closed for the same reason Autodesk keeps the DWG format closed. It means money and market control. I don't think US taxpayers should be supporting that type of business model. I know what I'm saying here likely rubs some people the wrong way. But this is the OSGeo mailing list. :] I don't care if a private company chooses to use MRSID. I don't care how Autodesk and LizardTech run their businesses. Until you get my tax payers involved. Then I have a right to be critical. My government's choices in these matters say more about a single business or IT decision. They say a lot about what principles we value and financially support as a society. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Richard Rupp Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:03 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in All, This is a great thought-provoking discussion. Thinking about the U.S. geodata released in the MrSID format. I think this may be the best way to show the return on the taxpayers' investment in the data. The vast majority of citizens don't want to manipulate these datasets; they only want to view them. The MrSID format with USGS topo maps and USDA county compressed mosaics makes them available to many more people than a more open format would. For those of us who want to manipulate these datasets with our geospatial OSS, alternatives are available. Perhaps someday there will be a widely adopted open format that can compete with MrSID but for today the MrSID option provides for the best access for the largest number of people. Regards, Richard On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Landon Blake lbl...@ksninc.com wrote: MPG, I didn't mean to shine a spotlight on the USDA's use of MRSID. It is one of several examples of an attitude I was trying to describe. I think you and I respectfully disagree with one another on one aspect of this debate. In my humble opinion sharing data acquired with tax payer funding in a format that is easily accessed without the use of proprietary software should be the most important factor in a file format decision by a government agency. (Well, maybe the second most important. The most important is the license that data is released under.) A company is well within its rights to use and promote a proprietary file format. I admit that file format may even have awesome benefits when compared to the best equivalent open file format. Just don't ask me to be happy when my government decides to use this proprietary file format. I think it short changes the citizens of the government and give that company an unfair
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Cameron wrote: Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. I believe governments in Canada are much more supportive of open source software than governments in the United States. In my experience, the attitude towards open source software held by many organizations in the United States is still skeptical, if not hostile. I believe this may be due in part to successful lobbying and marketing campaigns by big software companies in the US. We also seem to be more tolerant of software monopolies than other industrialized nations. Microsoft's trouble with the EU might be one example demonstrating the differences in attitude. Go Canada! (Home of the original JUMP desktop GIS, I might add.) :] Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:43 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted around Australia due to the conference location). So what can we learn? * Japan and Mongolia are the place be in Asia * Chilli is the place to be in Latin America * Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. * There is a lot of interest across Europe, so FOSS4G 2010 should be a crowded event. * Africa seems to have learned all they need to know when FOSS4G attended Johannesburg last year, and won't be heading to Australia in force. You can view the maps here: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2009/08/osgeo-friendly-countries-to-l ive-in.html and in French on Yves blog: http://georezo.net/blog/geolibre/2009/08/16/geolocalisation-des-visite-d u-site-foss4g-2009/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Landon Blakelbl...@ksninc.com wrote: Cameron wrote: Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. I believe governments in Canada are much more supportive of open source software than governments in the United States. In my experience, the attitude towards open source software held by many organizations in the United States is still skeptical, if not hostile. Well, I would make that assertion if I can back it up. A quick check shows me that while I don't know what Whitehouse.gov uses on the backend, it uses the open source jquery framework on the front-end, and publishes all its content under a CC3.0 Attribution license. Similarly for data.gov, and its http://www.data.gov/catalog/geodata catalog. Reminds me of the story -- Reporter sees Bill Gates' dog swimming. Next day the headlines says, Bill Gates' dog can't walk on water! My feeling is (_feeling_, not an assertion backed by evidence) that the US govt. agencies stay out of supporting or not supporting any particular kind of software or technology. They use what they think is best, without creating a policy out of it, and generally let the provider and the consumer of technologies duke it out. Of course, I have no scientific evidence for this statement. But the proliferation of Canadian Blackberries in the US Senate and House is a fairly decent reflection of this. Other govts. may choose to support a particular vendor or sector because of various reasons -- one reason might be to make a concerted effort to develop an alternative to US vendors and technologies. I believe this may be due in part to successful lobbying and marketing campaigns by big software companies in the US. We also seem to be more tolerant of software monopolies than other industrialized nations. Microsoft's trouble with the EU might be one example demonstrating the differences in attitude. Go Canada! (Home of the original JUMP desktop GIS, I might add.) :] Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:43 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted around Australia due to the conference location). So what can we learn? * Japan and Mongolia are the place be in Asia * Chilli is the place to be in Latin America * Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. * There is a lot of interest across Europe, so FOSS4G 2010 should be a crowded event. * Africa seems to have learned all they need to know when FOSS4G attended Johannesburg last year, and won't be heading to Australia in force. You can view the maps here: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2009/08/osgeo-friendly-countries-to-l ive-in.html and in French on Yves blog: http://georezo.net/blog/geolibre/2009/08/16/geolocalisation-des-visite-d u-site-foss4g-2009/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu --- Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science === Sent from Madison, WI, United States ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
I'm a long ways from Washington DC and a lot closer to the Silicon Valley, which may be a reason why I perceive different attitudes. I do think the new US Administration seems friendlier towards open source software. Still, when I think about the fight over using ODF in Maryland and other similar situations I realize open source software still has an uphill battle in many parts of the United States. This may even be truer in the geospatial arena than in others. Autodesk and ESRI may be great corporate citizens, but there is no doubt in my mind that the control software monopolies, especially in the government market. This isn't just true at the federal level, but at the state and local level as well. I've got to have MicroStation to work with CALTRANS, AutoCAD to work with my local city, ESRI to work with the County's GIS department, and software from LizardTech to use the imagery distributed by USDA for my County in MRSID format. To make it even more pleasant, AutoDESK breaks its file compatibility every other version or so, which means my company gets to purchase a license upgrade if we want to keep dealing with our government clients. Money talks in United States politics, and I'm sure the big boys in the software development throw plenty of greenbacks around when it suits there purpose. I'm not saying there is a malicious intent on government agencies to make life difficult. But I certainly don't see a widespread effort to embrace open source for its benefits, or to look for any alternatives to the widely established monopolies. (I do know of a couple cases where some state agencies in California are making an effort to use open source GIS desktop software.) Things may be very different in the web-mapping world. I'm talking about desktop software, since that is what I deal with 98% of the time. But, like you, I speak from personal experience, and don't have any hard facts or statistics to back up my wild claims. :] Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of P Kishor Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:53 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Landon Blakelbl...@ksninc.com wrote: Cameron wrote: Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. I believe governments in Canada are much more supportive of open source software than governments in the United States. In my experience, the attitude towards open source software held by many organizations in the United States is still skeptical, if not hostile. Well, I would make that assertion if I can back it up. A quick check shows me that while I don't know what Whitehouse.gov uses on the backend, it uses the open source jquery framework on the front-end, and publishes all its content under a CC3.0 Attribution license. Similarly for data.gov, and its http://www.data.gov/catalog/geodata catalog. Reminds me of the story -- Reporter sees Bill Gates' dog swimming. Next day the headlines says, Bill Gates' dog can't walk on water! My feeling is (_feeling_, not an assertion backed by evidence) that the US govt. agencies stay out of supporting or not supporting any particular kind of software or technology. They use what they think is best, without creating a policy out of it, and generally let the provider and the consumer of technologies duke it out. Of course, I have no scientific evidence for this statement. But the proliferation of Canadian Blackberries in the US Senate and House is a fairly decent reflection of this. Other govts. may choose to support a particular vendor or sector because of various reasons -- one reason might be to make a concerted effort to develop an alternative to US vendors and technologies. I believe this may be due in part to successful lobbying and marketing campaigns by big software companies in the US. We also seem to be more tolerant of software monopolies than other industrialized nations. Microsoft's trouble with the EU might be one example demonstrating the differences in attitude. Go Canada! (Home of the original JUMP desktop GIS, I might add.) :] Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:43 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Cameron wrote: Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. The Canadian federal government is way ahead of most provinces on that front. One can see the commitments of organizations like the Centre for Topographic Information - Sherbrooke (federal agency) where some folks are actively collaborating on projects like OpenStreetMap as part of their duties. Open source in provinces is way behind, especially in my own province : Québec :-(. I don't know what it will take for government organizations to see the virtues of collaboration ... Yves ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, P Kishorpunk.k...@gmail.com wrote: My feeling is (_feeling_, not an assertion backed by evidence) that the US govt. agencies stay out of supporting or not supporting any particular kind of software or technology. They use what they think is best, without creating a policy out of it, and generally let the provider and the consumer of technologies duke it out. Of course, I have no scientific evidence for this statement. But the proliferation of Canadian Blackberries in the US Senate and House is a fairly decent reflection of this. While things are getting better - mandates pushing open data, nominally open standards, and trying to build better procurement of Open-Source technology, lobbying rules much. For a solid example, see how GIS Standards as dictated by local governments: http://apb.directionsmag.com/archives/5599-Oregon-ESRI-ELA-and-the-Legislation-Behind-It.html http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_100/OAR_125/125_600.html I think Landon covered it well - many varied stakeholders, from software vendors, to support contracts, training, constituencies, legacy, funding (retooling) that prevent changing from what's currently in place. But it doesn't have to be this way. So as much as the US Federal government is a model to other governments in the benefits of sharing data - the more other governments adopt open-source open-standards, the more the US will be pressured to do the same. :) Andrew ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Great comments Andrew. We need a model where we have Europe's support of open source with the United State's open data policies. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Turner Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:58 AM To: punk...@eidesis.org; OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:53 AM, P Kishorpunk.k...@gmail.com wrote: My feeling is (_feeling_, not an assertion backed by evidence) that the US govt. agencies stay out of supporting or not supporting any particular kind of software or technology. They use what they think is best, without creating a policy out of it, and generally let the provider and the consumer of technologies duke it out. Of course, I have no scientific evidence for this statement. But the proliferation of Canadian Blackberries in the US Senate and House is a fairly decent reflection of this. While things are getting better - mandates pushing open data, nominally open standards, and trying to build better procurement of Open-Source technology, lobbying rules much. For a solid example, see how GIS Standards as dictated by local governments: http://apb.directionsmag.com/archives/5599-Oregon-ESRI-ELA-and-the-Legis lation-Behind-It.html http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_100/OAR_125/125_600.html I think Landon covered it well - many varied stakeholders, from software vendors, to support contracts, training, constituencies, legacy, funding (retooling) that prevent changing from what's currently in place. But it doesn't have to be this way. So as much as the US Federal government is a model to other governments in the benefits of sharing data - the more other governments adopt open-source open-standards, the more the US will be pressured to do the same. :) Andrew ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
A tad unfair on Capetown I think - much of SA money is in GP, the province with Jo-burg and Pretoria in it and all the big companies; Cape Town and its residents took a lead in ending apartheid; the university appointed Dr Ramphele (a key player in the anti-apartheid struggle) as a Deputy VC in 1991. What Cape Town does have is a great spread of industries as it has an incredible tourist industry (mix of beauty, surf and Robben Island), strong mining sector and an entrepreneurial culture. Like many places of beauty (and a temperate climate), people with money have tended to move there, and the World Cup (and probably FOSS4G!) boosted interest in property, leading to a booming real estate business. Now, if you want more Africa, South Africa is not a good destination; Botswana or Ghana are probably more middle of the road in terms of demographics. But it's a very big continent with huge variance. Not sure any country or city is more Africa than another. Chris - Ravi ravivundava...@yahoo.com wrote: Nice research.. It was last at Capetown.. Wish it was at Joh--berg, as mentioned, heard that .. that is more Africa than this Europe hammered into Africa (Cape Town.. a Rich Rich stinking rich guys place) --- On Mon, 17/8/09, Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.com wrote: From: Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.com Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Date: Monday, 17 August, 2009, 2:12 AM Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted around Australia due to the conference location). So what can we learn? * Japan and Mongolia are the place be in Asia * Chilli is the place to be in Latin America * Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. * There is a lot of interest across Europe, so FOSS4G 2010 should be a crowded event. * Africa seems to have learned all they need to know when FOSS4G attended Johannesburg last year, and won't be heading to Australia in force. You can view the maps here: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2009/08/osgeo-friendly-countries-to-live-in.html and in French on Yves blog: http://georezo.net/blog/geolibre/2009/08/16/geolocalisation-des-visite-du-site-foss4g-2009/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Yahoo! recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Just a small note: Chile is the correct name of mencioned Chilli. Nice research. On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.comwrote: Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted around Australia due to the conference location). So what can we learn? * Japan and Mongolia are the place be in Asia * Chilli is the place to be in Latin America * Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. * There is a lot of interest across Europe, so FOSS4G 2010 should be a crowded event. * Africa seems to have learned all they need to know when FOSS4G attended Johannesburg last year, and won't be heading to Australia in force. You can view the maps here: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2009/08/osgeo-friendly-countries-to-live-in.html and in French on Yves blog: http://georezo.net/blog/geolibre/2009/08/16/geolocalisation-des-visite-du-site-foss4g-2009/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- George R. C. Silva Desenvolvimento em GIS www.sextantegeo2.blogspot.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in
Nice research.. It was last at Capetown.. Wish it was at Joh--berg, as mentioned, heard that .. that is more Africa than this Europe hammered into Africa (Cape Town.. a Rich Rich stinking rich guys place) --- On Mon, 17/8/09, Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.com wrote: From: Cameron Shorter cameron.shor...@gmail.com Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo friendly countries to live in To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Date: Monday, 17 August, 2009, 2:12 AM Yves Jacolin has sliced FOSS4G http://2009.foss4g.org/ website hits to determine the number of FOSS4G attendees per million people, broken down by country. From this, you can get a feeling for the most OSGeo tolerant populations in the world (distorted around Australia due to the conference location). So what can we learn? * Japan and Mongolia are the place be in Asia * Chilli is the place to be in Latin America * Canada looks preferable to the US. I wonder how much the Canadian GeoConnections program is responsible for Canada's strong OSGeo industry. * There is a lot of interest across Europe, so FOSS4G 2010 should be a crowded event. * Africa seems to have learned all they need to know when FOSS4G attended Johannesburg last year, and won't be heading to Australia in force. You can view the maps here: http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2009/08/osgeo-friendly-countries-to-live-in.html and in French on Yves blog: http://georezo.net/blog/geolibre/2009/08/16/geolocalisation-des-visite-du-site-foss4g-2009/ -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Yahoo! recommends that you upgrade to the new and safer Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
