Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[P Kishor]

I am following up on this thread, and cross-posting to several lists
-- sorry for the noise -- to inform you all of my related activities.

I have spent the past five days in Atibaia, Brazil at a
CODATA-organized () workshop on "Open Access to
Scientific Data" ().
Besides representatives from all the science academies from Latin
America and the Caribbean, as well as from India, China, and the US,
many open access advocates, including John Wilbanks from Science
Commons, were present. The meeting was concerned with all kinds of
scientific data, geospatial data being a small but significant portion
of the same. Besides myself, Harland Onsrud from U of Maine, Orono,
were carrying the open geospatial torch.

On 3/30/07, Chris Holmes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
..

I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which
is the branch of CC made to deal with data.  It was an interesting
conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for
Geodata.


..

Chris's summary above describes the current position correctly. So,
what is the way out? Well, it is easier for those who create
geospatial data from scratch going forward. The general recommendation
is that you slap a CC-license on it and put the data in public domain.
A strong-ish model for this is a geodata commons
(http://geodatacommons.umaine.edu/download.php>). Of course, even
better might be to just waive all your rights in it, but that may not
be a viable alternative for many.

The problem, of course, is that most people don't create geospatial
data from scratch. Most of us take existing data whose provenance is
indeterminable and then we build upon it. Well, since we end up using
existing data, we are at risk of violating someone else's rights. One
belief is that in such a case as well waiving one's own rights might
be helpful. A related belief is that "put it out there and wait to see
if someone will sue you." The general sense is that no one has been
sued *yet*.

CC agrees that it does not have a clear and hopeful position on
geospatial data, but John Wilbanks and I "shook hands" whereby Science
Commons has agreed in principle to work with the geospatial community
to help develop clarity on this issue.

Tomorrow I will be at INPE, the Brazilian Space Research Institute in
São José dos Campos, where there is a tremendous amount of interest
*and* activity in open geospatial data and research. It is really
heartening to see very large and important research institutions such
as INPE be a strong practicing advocate of open source and open
access.

Finally, I have a Fellowship from the National Academy of Science this
summer working on open access to public sector information including
geospatial and environmental data. I hope to continue to serve OSGeo's
and open geospatial communities interests in the science policy
circles.

To summarize --

1. The scientific community as a whole wants open and permanent access
to scientific data, and that includes raw research data, not just the
publishable results of it;

2. GeoSpatial data are a small but significant portion of the corpus
of science data, so it is very important to continue to maintain an
active and vocal presence in the dialong;

3. As is, data can't be copyrighted. For those creating data, the best
option going forward might be to put them in a public commons; better
yet, waive all rights to them. Of course, this may not be a viable
alternative for many. This area is murky at best, since there is
confusion between "facts" and "data about facts;

4. For those doing research utilizing existing data that don't come
with a clear position on their provenance, (besides not using such
data) the best one can do is to waive one's own rights in the
research, and then wait till someone sues. Of course, this too is less
than satisfactory;

5. Work is needed to create a clear and unequivocal set of statements
and facts on the existing situation. As is, the situation is murky,
and not knowing what one can do itself is a big deterrent to doing
something;

6. I will be in a position to serve the open geospatial community's
interests in the ongoing dialog about access to scientific data,
especially the public sector scientific data, so please send your
thoughts and ideas to me via this list. Educate me on your concerns
via this list so I can contribute to the dialog at the Academies and
other agencies in Washington DC this summer and beyond.

Best regards. Now I go out to enjoy the late Fall sunshine in Southern Brasiooo.

--
Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/
Ph. D. Program, Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/
Vice President, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/
Fellow, National Academy of Science http://www.nationalacademies.org
-
collaborate, communicate, compete
===

RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Landon Blake]

Thanks for that Link Michael.

It will be useful.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adair, Mike
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 10:38 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

More from the Canadian perspective -  the GeoConnections program policy group 
has produced a "Best Practices Guide" for licensing of geospatial data which 
might help to inform the debate:
http://www.geoconnections.org/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf

It provides a good overview of the background issues and proposes 3 types of 
licences to standardize on: unrestricted-use with licence acknowledgement 
(click-through), an "end-user" licence and a distributor licence.  

Michael Adair
GeoConnections Secretariat / Secrétariat de GéoConnexions 
615 Booth St, 6th Floor / 615 rue Booth, 6e étage 
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0E9 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone / Téléphone: (613) 947-1342
Fax / Télécopieur: (613) 947-2410 
www.geoconnections.org / www.geoconnexions.org 




> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Patton
> Sent: April 1, 2007 2:05 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely 
> available geodata
> 
> Jason Birch wrote:
> > I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data 
> > resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both 
> > employing a form of copyleft:
> 
> > Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach.
> 
> Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already 
> involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some 
> presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as 
> Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps 
> even better, people from their legal departments) who could 
> attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the 
> BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are 
> local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or 
> expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is 
> based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions.
> 
> --
> Dave Patton
> 
> Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project 
> http://www.confluence.org/
> 
> Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc.
> http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
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RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Adair, Mike]

More from the Canadian perspective -  the GeoConnections program policy group 
has produced a "Best Practices Guide" for licensing of geospatial data which 
might help to inform the debate:
http://www.geoconnections.org/publications/Best_practices_guide/Guide_to_Best_Practices_v12_finale_e.pdf

It provides a good overview of the background issues and proposes 3 types of 
licences to standardize on: unrestricted-use with licence acknowledgement 
(click-through), an "end-user" licence and a distributor licence.  

Michael Adair
GeoConnections Secretariat / Secrétariat de GéoConnexions 
615 Booth St, 6th Floor / 615 rue Booth, 6e étage 
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0E9 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Phone / Téléphone: (613) 947-1342
Fax / Télécopieur: (613) 947-2410 
www.geoconnections.org / www.geoconnexions.org 




> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Patton
> Sent: April 1, 2007 2:05 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Subject: Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely 
> available geodata
> 
> Jason Birch wrote:
> > I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data 
> > resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both 
> > employing a form of copyleft:
> 
> > Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach.
> 
> Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already 
> involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some 
> presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as 
> Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps 
> even better, people from their legal departments) who could 
> attend, then perhaps they could also participate in the 
> BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers who are 
> local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some interest or 
> expertise who could attend - even if their perspective is 
> based on Canadian law, it might still help illuminate the discussions.
> 
> --
> Dave Patton
> 
> Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project 
> http://www.confluence.org/
> 
> Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc.
> http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 
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Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Dave Patton]

Jason Birch wrote:

I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data
resources (provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both
employing a form of copyleft:



Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach.


Given the interest, maybe the 'OSGeo people' who are already
involved could organize a BOF session, and also do some
presentations. If there are 'local' resources such as
Canadian municipal/provincial/federal managers(or perhaps
even better, people from their legal departments) who
could attend, then perhaps they could also participate
in the BOF/presentations. Also, maybe there are lawyers
who are local(e.g. Victoria or BC) any who have some
interest or expertise who could attend - even if their
perspective is based on Canadian law, it might still
help illuminate the discussions.

--
Dave Patton

Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project
http://www.confluence.org/

Personal website - Maps, GPS, etc.
http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
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Re: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Richard Greenwood]

On 3/30/07, Jason Birch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach.  They have a 
click-through, but it's not asserting any rights, just disclaiming liability.  
Their GIS manager explained that they are essentially placing the data into 
public domain:


I like the Kamloops language and may barrow a bit of it (assuming it's
not copyrighted ). Below is a link to some language I wrote, and
that has been out there for about 10 years. I am not suggesting that
it is exemplary because I'm sure not a lawyer, but it has a unique
clause requiring reciprocal data sharing by users. The county for
which I wrote the statement requires surveyors and engineers to
provide digital files (AutoCad, etc.) for new subdivisions and other
developments.

  http://www2.tetonwyo.org/gis/download/default.asp

Rich

--
Richard Greenwood
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.greenwoodmap.com
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[SteveC]

Chris Holmes wrote:

Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk?  I checked
out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_directive

mostly it just follows from that page... maybe richard could help more?

have fun,

SteveC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[SteveC]

Chris Holmes wrote:

Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk?  I checked
out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read.

I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which
is the branch of CC made to deal with data.  It was an interesting
conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for
Geodata.


Thanks for all this :-)


The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied
to any geospatial data.  Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since


The thing with that argument is that there are lots of people with data 
and money who probably hold the opposite view, eg Ordnance Survey.


This was data only right, not cartographic interpretations eg maps?


they depend on copyright.  So people providing data have two options -
public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it.


Yes, I've been thinking about the latter.


He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of
licenses if one wanted to.  Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't
copyright data.  Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer
and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted.


IANAL. We have case law here in the UK where big company a (the AA) was 
taken to court by b (the OS) because they copied their maps. The 
clincher was that they also copied fake streets, easter eggs, trap 
streets in the map. This gave away that they copied 'their' map. So does 
it fall down because these are not facts, they're creative secrets? If 
in your next conversation or otherwise you could ask about this it would 
be super helpful.



So what you would have to do is use contract law.  It would be a contract
similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information
contained in this database unless you follow the set terms.  And you could
do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and
you somehow have to get people to accept that contract.  Which I suppose
isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to
get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off
line and the like.


It would be super useful if you could also ask 'can we use a CC license 
as a contract? That is, if the data is not copyrightable, can we say to 
people you may use this data AS IF IT WERE copyrightable, with this CC 
license if they sign a contract / tick a box'



have fun,

SteveC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
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RE: [Geodata] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Jason Birch]

Chris wrote:
> The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright
> can be applied to any geospatial data.  Thus creative
> commons licenses don't work, since they depend on
> copyright.  So people providing data have two options -
> public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it.

I'm sure that most of you have seen this, but these two free data resources 
(provincial and federal Canadian governements) are both employing a form of 
copyleft:

https://web2.gov.mb.ca/mli/app/register/app/index.php 
 

http://geogratis.cgdi.gc.ca/geogratis/en/licence.jsp 
 

They are asserting copyright and other rights, but are also requiring the user 
to "accept" a click-through contract to use the data.  In this way they're 
covering all bases I guess.

Early in my career I put in my fair share of time digitizing, and it's not an 
especially creative process.  More like painting a house than painting Mona 
Lisa.  It's a lot of work, and hard to do correctly, but you're operating 
within a fairly fixed set of rules.  I have difficulty accepting the copyright 
arguments.

Kamloops (Canadian municipality) takes an interesting approach.  They have a 
click-through, but it's not asserting any rights, just disclaiming liability.  
Their GIS manager explained that they are essentially placing the data into 
public domain:

http://webserver.kamloops.ca/imf/sites/DataDownload/disclaimer.html 
 

We've been looking at ways of doing this at my place of employment. I prefer 
the Kamloops example, but have a feeling that we'll probably end up with 
something like the Manitoba version.

Jason

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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Ned Horning]

Chris,

Thanks for the overview of your conversation. I appreciate your effort to
contact these folks. This is something I'm trying to get my head around but
without much success. 

Do you (or anyone else out there) have a sense for the difference between
(scientific) data and maps? If I create a land cover or land cover change
map in digital format is that data or a map? What about a DEM? When you talk
about data is it limited to data directly recorded by an instrument or does
it include something interpreted or modeled using human input? Once a human
gets involved does it become "creative"? I would argue that most interpreted
data (i.e., just about any geospatial data not directly recorded by a
sensor) are creative works not unlike a copyrighted written description of
something. 

I also wonder about "facts" (and fiction). Can facts have error? How much?
Is it factual if the error is documented in the metadata? 

Of course, I'm out of my area of expertise here so maybe I'm talking
nonsense. Maybe I'm panicking because I'm using the CC license for some map
data sets I've created for other organizations. 

Ned 


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Chris Holmes
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 6:59 PM
> To: OSGeo Discussions
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Legal Talk
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata
> 
> Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk?  I checked
> out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read.
> 
> I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which
> is the branch of CC made to deal with data.  It was an interesting
> conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for
> Geodata.
> 
> The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied
> to any geospatial data.  Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since
> they depend on copyright.  So people providing data have two options -
> public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it.
> 
> The longer story is that the Science Commons initiative is about getting
> science data more available, which unlike geospatial data is something
> that traditionally has been available for all, only published papers about
> the data were under copyright.  So they would be very hesitant to create a
> regime for data licensing that would make it easier for people to put more
> restrictions on their data.  They are launching a 'facts are free'
> campaign soon to get across to the world that one can't copyright
> scientific data.
> 
> I can see this strategy working decently for science, but unfortunately it
> doesn't for geospatial.  The legacy we're dealing with is that maps are
> power, and something to be kept private for military advantage or economic
> gain.  We really want a regime that gives a variety of licenses that are
> more restrictive than public domain but less so than completely keeping
> private.
> 
> The lawyer at CC definitely 'got' this, but unfortunately it doesn't line
> up with their mission, since most of the topics they're pushing on benefit
> from the fact that you can't copyright facts.
> 
> He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of
> licenses if one wanted to.  Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't
> copyright data.  Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer
> and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted.
> 
> So what you would have to do is use contract law.  It would be a contract
> similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information
> contained in this database unless you follow the set terms.  And you could
> do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and
> you somehow have to get people to accept that contract.  Which I suppose
> isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to
> get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off
> line and the like.
> 
> He was also worried a bit about license incompatibilities, but personally
> since they're are practically no open data licenses, that's not so much a
> worry for me.
> 
> So unfortunately CC isn't going to be much help to us.  CC themselves
> believe pure data licensed under the CC isn't enforceable in any way,
> since it's not copyrightable and so their license doesn't apply.  And
> Science Commons (who anyone in CC will point you to if you want to do
> data, because CC is for creative works) can't really touch it since it
> sort of works 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Chris Holmes]

Do you have a link to the Database Directive stuff on osm-talk?  I checked
out the list but there's a lot there and wasn't sure which posts to read.

I just got off the phone with the lead counsel of Science Commons, which
is the branch of CC made to deal with data.  It was an interesting
conversation, though unfortunately not much good news for CC licenses for
Geodata.

The very quick story is that they don't believe copyright can be applied
to any geospatial data.  Thus creative commons licenses don't work, since
they depend on copyright.  So people providing data have two options -
public domain or make a contract that completely restricts it.

The longer story is that the Science Commons initiative is about getting
science data more available, which unlike geospatial data is something
that traditionally has been available for all, only published papers about
the data were under copyright.  So they would be very hesitant to create a
regime for data licensing that would make it easier for people to put more
restrictions on their data.  They are launching a 'facts are free'
campaign soon to get across to the world that one can't copyright
scientific data.

I can see this strategy working decently for science, but unfortunately it
doesn't for geospatial.  The legacy we're dealing with is that maps are
power, and something to be kept private for military advantage or economic
gain.  We really want a regime that gives a variety of licenses that are
more restrictive than public domain but less so than completely keeping
private.

The lawyer at CC definitely 'got' this, but unfortunately it doesn't line
up with their mission, since most of the topics they're pushing on benefit
from the fact that you can't copyright facts.

He did give some insight in to how one would make such a regime of
licenses if one wanted to.  Copyright law doesn't work, since you can't
copyright data.  Maps can be copyrighted, but if you can reverse engineer
and extract the data out of them, then that result can not be copyrighted.

So what you would have to do is use contract law.  It would be a contract
similar to a non-disclosure agreement - you can't disclose the information
contained in this database unless you follow the set terms.  And you could
do copyleft type things in the terms, but it's definitely trickier, and
you somehow have to get people to accept that contract.  Which I suppose
isn't insurmountable, since Google Maps and their data providers manage to
get you to accept a contract to not reverse engineer and use tiles off
line and the like.

He was also worried a bit about license incompatibilities, but personally
since they're are practically no open data licenses, that's not so much a
worry for me.

So unfortunately CC isn't going to be much help to us.  CC themselves
believe pure data licensed under the CC isn't enforceable in any way,
since it's not copyrightable and so their license doesn't apply.  And
Science Commons (who anyone in CC will point you to if you want to do
data, because CC is for creative works) can't really touch it since it
sort of works against their mission.

So if we want to do this right we need to find a lawyer who would
construct a set of contracts for us and guidelines on how to apply them
and get others to accept them.  Ideally I think we'd have an 'lgpl' type
option where only modifications to the database need to also be open, and
a 'gpl' one where anything derived has to be similarly open (which would
make it incompatible with things).

Though I suppose we could also just recommend CC, and not tell people that
once they put it out there it's really in the public domain ;)  (since CC
wouldn't go to bat for it, it effectively is since it's uncopyrightable
facts that we can easily copy).

best regards,

Chris

On Fri, March 30, 2007 1:24 pm, SteveC wrote:
> Dear all
>
>
> It's incredibly cool that governments are thinking of using CC foe
> geodata.
>
> Our legal-talk and other lists have found a whole ton of problems with
> it though (we use a CC license in OSM).
>
> I'd be super interested in seeing the results and if any lawyers think
> that they're valid for geodata - and if they looked at the Database
> Directive and its impact. As would we all on legal-talk.
>
>
> Arnulf Christl wrote:
>
>> On Fri, March 30, 2007 06:36, Tim Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000,
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM:

> On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
> conversations I've had with various people over time it appears
> one of the difficulties data providers may have with this is
> licensing. There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.
> Do we need
> something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
> existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to
>
 them.
> Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be
> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[SteveC]

Dear all

It's incredibly cool that governments are thinking of using CC foe geodata.

Our legal-talk and other lists have found a whole ton of problems with 
it though (we use a CC license in OSM).


I'd be super interested in seeing the results and if any lawyers think 
that they're valid for geodata - and if they looked at the Database 
Directive and its impact. As would we all on legal-talk.


Arnulf Christl wrote:

On Fri, March 30, 2007 06:36, Tim Bowden wrote:

On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM:


On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.  Do we need
something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to

them.

Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be talking

to

OSI about this?
Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think.
Tim Bowden

I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is
considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically-
available geodata. It is not final, but close to it.

nick

Nick, this is great news.  Can't wait for this idea to infect other
govt's in our region.  The idea that user pays /in every instance/ has
taken hold much too firmly down here (especially when we have already
paid through our taxes!).

Regards,
Tim Bowden


Several states in Germany (we are federal, everybody runs in a different
direction) are also considering to use a CC license to protect some of
their data and publish it for Open and Free access. We are currently
trying to convince them that the non-commercial-use clause might be more
anti-commercial in its effect than it will help them to earn money but
whichever way it goes, it is the right overall direction. This is one
exmaple of what is there already: http://www.geoportal.rlp.de/ Btw: The
portal is built on Open Source completely. Some 70+ services are already
available, they come in all makes and colors. Most of the data is
currently not protected by any license at all, some have a copyright tag
somewhere. It is a pain, but it is getting better. Never stop talking to
them, they need all the moral support they can get. :-)

Regards,
Arnulf Christl

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have fun,

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Arnulf Christl]

On Fri, March 30, 2007 06:36, Tim Bowden wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM:
>>
>> > On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
>> > conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
>> > the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
>> > There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.  Do we need
>> > something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
>> > existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to
>> them.
>> > Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be talking
>> to
>> > OSI about this?
>>
>> > Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think.
>>
>> > Tim Bowden
>>
>> I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is
>> considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically-
>> available geodata. It is not final, but close to it.
>>
>> nick
>
> Nick, this is great news.  Can't wait for this idea to infect other
> govt's in our region.  The idea that user pays /in every instance/ has
> taken hold much too firmly down here (especially when we have already
> paid through our taxes!).
>
> Regards,
> Tim Bowden

Several states in Germany (we are federal, everybody runs in a different
direction) are also considering to use a CC license to protect some of
their data and publish it for Open and Free access. We are currently
trying to convince them that the non-commercial-use clause might be more
anti-commercial in its effect than it will help them to earn money but
whichever way it goes, it is the right overall direction. This is one
exmaple of what is there already: http://www.geoportal.rlp.de/ Btw: The
portal is built on Open Source completely. Some 70+ services are already
available, they come in all makes and colors. Most of the data is
currently not protected by any license at all, some have a copyright tag
somewhere. It is a pain, but it is getting better. Never stop talking to
them, they need all the moral support they can get. :-)

Regards,
Arnulf Christl

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Tim Bowden]

On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 08:22 +1000,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM:
> 
> > On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
> > conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
> > the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
> > There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.  Do we need
> > something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
> > existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to them.
> > Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be talking to
> > OSI about this?
> 
> > Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think.
> 
> > Tim Bowden
> 
> I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is
> considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically-
> available geodata. It is not final, but close to it.
> 
> nick

Nick, this is great news.  Can't wait for this idea to infect other
govt's in our region.  The idea that user pays /in every instance/ has
taken hold much too firmly down here (especially when we have already
paid through our taxes!).

Regards,
Tim Bowden

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Tim Bowden]

Ok, looks like the issue is being well addressed.  I was a bit concerned
it was slipping under the radar.  Once we get some formal pointers we
can direct people to it will be handy.

Thanks,
Tim Bowden

On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 10:34 -0400, Chris Holmes wrote:
> >>  Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? 
> > There are at least 2 parallel efforts to establish an equivalent
> > definition at the same level as "OSI compliance" for open data:
> > http://www.opendefinition.org/ 
> > http://www.freedomdefined.org/ 
> 
> Creative Commons also has a FAQ about applying their licenses to data:
> 
> http://sciencecommons.org/resources/faq/databases.html
> 
> My meeting with them got rescheduled to this Friday.  They're planning 
> on updating the faq soon, so I'm going to ask them lots of geodata 
> questions and hopefully they'll incorporate some of that in to the new 
> faq.  I have a few questions to ask, but if anyone has specific 
> questions or use cases, feel free to forward to me.
> 
> Chris
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[nicholas . g . lawrence]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/03/2007 04:45:26 PM:

> On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
> conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
> the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
> There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.  Do we need
> something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
> existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to them.
> Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be talking to
> OSI about this?

> Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think.

> Tim Bowden

I can report that the government in Queensland, Australia is
considering the creative commons liscence for releasing publically-
available geodata. It is not final, but close to it.

nick



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Chris Holmes]

 Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? 

There are at least 2 parallel efforts to establish an equivalent
definition at the same level as "OSI compliance" for open data:
http://www.opendefinition.org/ 
http://www.freedomdefined.org/ 


Creative Commons also has a FAQ about applying their licenses to data:

http://sciencecommons.org/resources/faq/databases.html

My meeting with them got rescheduled to this Friday.  They're planning 
on updating the faq soon, so I'm going to ask them lots of geodata 
questions and hopefully they'll incorporate some of that in to the new 
faq.  I have a few questions to ask, but if anyone has specific 
questions or use cases, feel free to forward to me.


Chris

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The Open Planning Project
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Landon Blake]

Tim,

Might the OSGeo be able to partner with this organization on some level?
http://www.opendataconsortium.org/

I think there goals are the same on this topic, at least in the area we
have been discussing. I can provide a contact I have made with the group
previously if desired.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Bowden
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:45 PM
To: OSGeo
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata.  Do we need
something like OSI approved licenses for geodata?  Are there any
existing OSI licenses that suit?  If so, we should be pointing to them.
Do we need input from those with a legal clue?  Should we be talking to
OSI about this?

Just thought I'd raise the issue and see what others think.

Tim Bowden

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Promoting freely available geodata

[Jo Walsh]

dear Tim, all,
On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 02:45:26PM +0800, Tim Bowden wrote:
> On of the aims of OSGeo is the promotion of open geodata.  From
> conversations I've had with various people over time it appears one of
> the difficulties data providers may have with this is licensing.
> There's no obvious candidate license for open geodata. 

Right, providing useful information about open geodata licensing is
part of the Mission of the geodata committee. There is generally a lot
more on the wiki/list than there is on the main site.
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Geodata_Licensing
http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/geodata/2007-March/000428.html and
the followups to the most recent thread on this topic...

>  Do we need something like OSI approved licenses for geodata? 
There are at least 2 parallel efforts to establish an equivalent
definition at the same level as "OSI compliance" for open data:
http://www.opendefinition.org/ 
http://www.freedomdefined.org/ 

> Are there any existing OSI licenses that suit? 

I doubt it, aren't they software licenses not data licenses? 
Creative Commons style is a better bet, CC-BY-SA is what OpenStreetmap
uses, for example. There is also a bit grey area regarding database
rights vs. copyright, geodata is both a database and a literary work,
the situation is very different in US from in EU, etc... :/

> If so, we should be pointing to them.

Nod. Collating a 'reference guide' out of the wiki links, bits of
discussion etc above has been on the Geodata Committee todolist awhile.
I have just not had time to prioritise this. Contributions welcome :) 

> Do we need input from those with a legal clue? 

Chris Holmes has been talking to Science Commons and CC people about
this a bit, i think. Through OSM there is some proxy advice and on the
OSM-legal-talk list a lot pragmatic back-and-forth about licensing
collectively contributed open data. Legal clue can be most useful when
there are really specific questions, and those vary so much depending
on the stance of the data provider and where they are located...

> Should we be talking to OSI about this?

I heard rumours that OSI were working on another "open data
definition" type project but never got any responses back when i asked
about this. If you have a better connection there, sure, go for it, i
would like to know where the commonality is...

cheers,


jo
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