Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Ian Turton ha scritto: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. My first few years of Geotools were completely unpaid: wake up at 5, worth though the weekends, to get it to work enough for my students at the uni to use (so in a sense there was a work purpose, but I was barely paid just for the hours spent in the classroom and nobody pushed for them use an open source library). Today I'm paid to work on GeoTools/GeoServer, but I still put in weekends time so there is still an unpaid portion. I don't think it can really go away: paid stuff is directed by company/customer needs /plans, on the spare time you do what you feel is good/necessary/fun instead. I don't believe you can really be involved if you don't have that kind of passion, yes, one can just work in an OS project, but it's not really the same thing as real involvement. Cheers Andrea -- Andrea Aime OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org Expert service straight from the developers. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 08:10:13AM +0200, Andrea Aime wrote: Ian Turton ha scritto: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. My first few years of Geotools were completely unpaid: wake up at 5, worth though the weekends, to get it to work enough for my students at the uni to use (so in a sense there was a work purpose, but I was barely paid just for the hours spent in the classroom and nobody pushed for them use an open source library). Today I'm paid to work on GeoTools/GeoServer, but I still put in weekends time so there is still an unpaid portion. I don't think it can really go away: paid stuff is directed by company/customer needs /plans, on the spare time you do what you feel is good/necessary/fun instead. I don't believe you can really be involved if you don't have that kind of passion, yes, one can just work in an OS project, but it's not really the same thing as real involvement. One of the best things that the OpenLayers project ever had came in the form of our first PSC president, Erik Uzureau. Erik was not a big open source community participant -- he wasn't on all the OSGeo mailing lists, etc. His involvement was crucial precisely because of what he did do -- which was organize and document a lot of the processes in the OL community, as well as answering questions on the mailing list, managing the bug tracker, etc. Erik was instrumental in documenting our processes, and I give a significant amount of the credit in the strict coding standards on the OL project to Erik's attention to detail and thorough documentation. Erik, as far as I'm aware, did almost all of his development on OpenLayers on company time. MetaCarta gave him a portion of his time with them as time dedicated to open source projects, and he seldom worked outside of that time on the project. Using only a small portion of his time, and very little to no 'personal' time, Erik was able to accomplish great good for the project, and I think that without him, OpenLayers wouldn't be the project it is today. I think that this kind of thing is not entirely common, perhaps -- the core contributors to many open source projects are also 'free time' contributors -- but I think it can happen, and that these contributions are just as valuable, if not more so, than the others made by hobbyists, on a 'value per time' scale. Best Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
I am selfemployed since january 2007. In the years 2008 and 2009 I spent a lot of time on OpenStreetMap. Developing small tools such as the mod_osm for joomla, the poi-editor and some minor fixes here and there, and mapped large parts of the Island of Aruba. I still spend about 6 hours a week on OpenStreetMap and I use GeoServer at my own webserver, not (yet) paid by any customers for hosting maps there. I also answer questions on the lists and IRC channels for mapserver, osgeo-discuss, osm. Basically, about 20% of my time is unpaid. But it helps me to gain knowledge and it caused me to get hired here and there. As an example AND Automotive Navigation Data got tipped by Steve Coast (OpenStreetMap founder) that I might be able to help them with setting up map20.org, So they hired me for 3 months and then offered me a year contract for two days a week. Indirectly I think it is well worth the time invested in myself and yes, I am able to feed myself and my family thanks to Open Source! Ian Turton ha scritto: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Le 2010-04-19 23:44, Christopher Schmidt a écrit : On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 06:00:45PM -0400, Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. About 80% of my work on OpenLayers has been entirely unpaid and unsupported by anyone for the past couple years. The early days of OL were a MetaCarta project, and some portion of my work time is still done with support from my employer on open source software, but most of it is just me spending my own time. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I admire the resilience, energy and passion of FOSS developers, but there is no way (IMO of course) someone can work a 40-hour week and have 20-30 hours to spend on their computers hobbying AND 1) do all the sport they should be doing to keep themselves in shape + take care of their kids and families + go to a concert more than once every decade + do all what life really is about. Governments should spend some of their resources to pay people to maintain the commons. Otherwise depending on heroic efforts is not my definition of sustainability. Yves Regards, ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Le 2010-04-19 19:51, Stefan Steiniger a écrit : I think we (OpenJUMP) have a couple of people that are working (i.e. sending emails and improving code) on the weekends (and evenings) for fun. This includes not only developers but also people that update documentation and test new functions. so - yes! Btw. if you have a 20 hours/week position and you do the rest (other 20h/w) what you want to do (at the University) - which includes research which helps to add functions to software - is that unpaid? .. I would say so. 20 hours at consulting rate vs 20 hours at employee rate makes a world of difference. I could live with 15-20 hours of consultant-rate paid work and I wouldn't mind volunteering for the rest of the week, really. Depends how much cash you really want. Yves ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
I think that most of the developers that actively contribute to the OSSIM project are funded through government contracts. Having said that, most all of them contribute well beyond the time they are paid for. Often that is to move the baseline towards capabilities that are not covered by customer requirements. I spend most all of my time securing contracts so we can expand the team. The core team has worked together over the last decade as the individual contributors have switched companies several times. Mark On Apr 19, 2010, at 11:44 PM, Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 06:00:45PM -0400, Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. About 80% of my work on OpenLayers has been entirely unpaid and unsupported by anyone for the past couple years. The early days of OL were a MetaCarta project, and some portion of my work time is still done with support from my employer on open source software, but most of it is just me spending my own time. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Mark Lucas Division Manager inline: RadiantBlue_JPEG_300x100fixed.jpg 516 E New Haven Avenue Melbourne Fl 32901 (321) 266 1475 (cell) (321) 473-4309 (office) mlu...@radiantblue.com --- http://www.radiantblue.com http://www.ossim.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Mark Lucas wrote: I think that most of the developers that actively contribute to the OSSIM project are funded through government contracts. Having said that, most all of them contribute well beyond the time they are paid for. Often that is to move the baseline towards capabilities that are not covered by customer requirements. I spend most all of my time securing contracts so we can expand the team. The core team has worked together over the last decade as the individual contributors have switched companies several times. This seems fairly typical of successful open source projects - an initial period where work is funded by a research grant or an internal requirement, evolving into a core team where employers fund time for various business purposes, with support broadening over time (e.g., writing books, consulting, etc.). I can't think of any successful (wide adoption, long-term sustainability) open source projects that are pure labors of love. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. Infnord practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
- Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: I can't think of any successful (wide adoption, long-term sustainability) open source projects that are pure labors of love. Well, maybe Bacula? Vague geospatial connection in that it is primarily developed by one of the founders of Autodesk, now retired and living in Switzerland. Is awesome enterprise-class backup software; there are people making money from it, but I think the core development for years has been mostly Kern Sibbald. Chris Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. Infnord practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Miles Fidelman wrote: Mark Lucas wrote: I think that most of the developers that actively contribute to the OSSIM project are funded through government contracts. Having said that, most all of them contribute well beyond the time they are paid for. Often that is to move the baseline towards capabilities that are not covered by customer requirements. I spend most all of my time securing contracts so we can expand the team. The core team has worked together over the last decade as the individual contributors have switched companies several times. This seems fairly typical of successful open source projects - an initial period where work is funded by a research grant or an internal requirement, evolving into a core team where employers fund time for various business purposes, with support broadening over time (e.g., writing books, consulting, etc.). I can't think of any successful (wide adoption, long-term sustainability) open source projects that are pure labors of love. Miles Fidelman OpenTTD (a remake of a classic game) has been going for something like 10 years and is highly successful by almost any measure. You can debate how many other games like this are successful, but few of them have any potential whatsoever to make money. On IRC someone (Yexo on OFTC) pointed out that it may work the other way around. It can be a labor of love, but if it is possible to make money off some piece of software, then somebody (maybe not the original author) will do just that. It could still have succeeded without, we'll never know. -Arne ps. http://www.baculasystems.com/ , they do most of the work on Bacula ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Chris Puttick chris.putt...@thehumanjourney.net wrote: - Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: I can't think of any successful (wide adoption, long-term sustainability) open source projects that are pure labors of love. Well, maybe Bacula? Another one is GRASS GIS (out of governmental contracts since 1996): http://grass.osgeo.org/devel/grasshist.html ..if 14 years already count :) There is no continuous funding agency. Some developers may be allowed to use work time when programming. For other project candidates, see also Open Source GIS History http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Open_Source_GIS_History Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. Originally, I started doing it to gain knowledge and real-work experience as well as for great fun. After a year or two it became my occupation. A year ago, I moved back to volunteering in my free time, still for education, experience and fun. My employer also gives me chances to contribute to some of FOSS4G projects in my work time. Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot http://mateusz.loskot.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Your employer is a nice guy! I don't have time or incentive from my employers for such things, which is not cool. But i manage to get a few hours every week. George 2010/4/20 Mateusz Loskot mate...@loskot.net Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. Originally, I started doing it to gain knowledge and real-work experience as well as for great fun. After a year or two it became my occupation. A year ago, I moved back to volunteering in my free time, still for education, experience and fun. My employer also gives me chances to contribute to some of FOSS4G projects in my work time. Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot http://mateusz.loskot.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- George R. C. Silva Desenvolvimento em GIS http://blog.geoprocessamento.net ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
I haven't made a cent. :] Just a hobby for me. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Ian Turton Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:01 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers? One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. Ian -- Ian Turton ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss Warning: Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
I consider myself a hobbyist wrt MapServer development. I'll see a small development contract every once in a while but most hours are just for fun. I imagine many devs contribute tons of hours without getting paid. Steve -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Ian Turton Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 5:01 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers? One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. Ian -- Ian Turton ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
I think we (OpenJUMP) have a couple of people that are working (i.e. sending emails and improving code) on the weekends (and evenings) for fun. This includes not only developers but also people that update documentation and test new functions. so - yes! Btw. if you have a 20 hours/week position and you do the rest (other 20h/w) what you want to do (at the University) - which includes research which helps to add functions to software - is that unpaid? .. I would say so. ..not even talking about answering on emails. cheers stefan Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. Ian -- Ian Turton ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. What is interesting is that many people I know that are now paid weren't when they first started using Open-Source (geo and non-geo). I for one, was able to first start as a hobby, then consult, then build businesses around open-source tools precisely because there was no initial capital costs, as well as a community to converse with. Over time, as my skills improved jobs also came through that I could begin tackling. So while there are many people that develop open-source purely for hobby, I imagine there is a very large number that started out unpaid and became paid as both their skills grew, the tools became more widespread, and customers adopted, or opted, for open-source. In Academia, students have many tools, many with expensive licenses, available 'for free', so the capital costs are not a limiting factor. Andrew @ajturner Ian -- Ian Turton ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] are there any unpaid developers?
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 06:00:45PM -0400, Ian Turton wrote: One of my students was asking today about the open source development process (with special reference to geospatial projects). One question I'm left with is are there any OSGEO developers who are doing this just for the fun and fame? I know that a lot of us have fun developing but everyone I could think of (GeoTools, GeoServer, uDig) gets paid to have that fun. About 80% of my work on OpenLayers has been entirely unpaid and unsupported by anyone for the past couple years. The early days of OL were a MetaCarta project, and some portion of my work time is still done with support from my employer on open source software, but most of it is just me spending my own time. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
