Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-10 Thread Chris Kuethe 
Yep, I'm aware of that. On that note, their FCC and SEC filings are
pretty interesting.

https://www.google.com/search?num=20=off=sirius+%22FM-3%22+%22TT%26C%22=sirius+%22FM-3%22+%22TT%26C%22_l=serp.3...466273.468341.0.468752.7.7.0.0.0.0.287.1073.2j4j1.7.0.ckpsrh...0...1.1.64.serp..7.0.0.2rZ6gnDtP7M

https://www.google.com/search?num=20=off=siriusxm+right+hand+circular+polarization=siriusxm+right+hand+circular+pol_l=serp.3.0.33i21.9261.17199.0.19298.18.18.0.0.0.0.114.1520.16j1.17.00...1.1.64.serp..1.12.1070.uCsnuHPRz8Y

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Andy Walls  wrote:
> Just to be clear, Sirius is different than XM (even though they merged).  The 
> lower edge of the 12.5 MHz XM allocation is at 2332.5 MHz, IIRC.  The upper 
> edge of the 12.5 MHZ Sirius allocation is there as well.
>
> Sirius does have patents on hierarchical modulation, which I'm guessing they 
> would use in the Sirius band.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
> On April 10, 2016 5:36:08 PM EDT, Chris Kuethe  wrote:
>>Thanks to Steve for hitting me with a clue-stick. For anyone else
>>playing along at home, the Sirius patch antenna has an integrated amp
>>and takes inline power - a fact that I did not see anywhere.
>>
>>This test was done with a hackrf tuned to 2.3265GHz, 20Msps, 8MHz
>>analog filter - there is clearly something interesting going on when
>>inline power is enabled with the "bias=1" argument.
>>
>>On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 6:32 AM, Andy Walls
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Andy Walls
>>
>>> wrote:


 > The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere
>>AFAIK
 > so
 > even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do
>>much
 > with it.

 > Thank you all for the conversation, it is pretty interesting.
>>That
 > makes sense
 > that they have a proprietary protocol, it's a shame though.  Is
>>the text
 > that
 > comes through encoded in a proprietary way?
 >
 > Does anyone know what the frequency of channel 1 is on (I'd like
>>to see
 > if I
 > can even see the signal popping up above the noise)?
 >
 > ~Jason

 The XM center freqs are shown here:



>>https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/technologies/satellite-broadcast/xm-satellite/xm-satellite-technology/xm-satellite-technology_55613.html

 The Sats are QPSK, the terrestrial is COFDM.

 That page also states the audio codec for voice programming is AMBE,
>>and
 AAC+ for all other programming.


 The XM radio patents give you a lot of clues:


>>https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22

 Images 4 and 6 of this one:


>>https://www.google.com/patents/US7020217?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwj5ycbeoP_LAhXEXh4KHWSdDeA4HhDoAQgwMAM
 Image 4 of this one:


>>https://www.google.com/patents/US6510317?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwikn4Ogof_LAhVIJx4KHYaYCt44KBDoAQhTMAg

 And maybe the most useful I've skimmed:


>>https://www.google.com/patents/US7123875?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22+MCM=en=X=0ahUKEwidqpT1of_LAhUFXh4KHXqIDuEQ6AEIKjAC
 Images 1, 5, and 6.

 This particular patent also indicates that after the demod, RS
>>decoder,
 viterbi decoder, and deinterleaver, that an MPEG TS *might* be the
 transport multiplex.

 The images show that the decryption happens after all the FEC and
 deinterleaving is handled and also after SL (service layer)
>>decoding.
 The I2C connected external NVRAM is likely where the program
>>decryption
 key is stored (inside of a tamper boundary), according to other
>>internet
 pages from 7 years ago.

 So I'm guessing you have to totally demodulate and decode one of the
>>SAT
 or terrestrial channels, and then dig around in a (hopefully MPEG)
 transport stream to find your unencrypted "Channel 1"

>>>
>>> The STA400A datasheet gives a lot of good information about the XM
>>signal
>>> characteristics, bit rate, RCC filter bandwidth, code rates and
>>puncturing,
>>> proper order of FEC blocks, etc.:
>>>
>>> http://www.chipfind.net/datasheet/pdf/stmicroelectronics/sta400a.pdf
>>>
>>> Enough info to give one half a chance of getting the demodulation
>>correct.
>>> It also talks a little bit about the frame structure.
>>>
>>> This MAXIM 2140 App Note has a yet another picture of the spectrum
>>> allocation, that also shows Sirius' and WCS' allocations in context:
>>>
>>> http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN3851.pdf
>>>
>>> I also found a Sirius patent that talks about an overlay modulation,
>>but it
>>> wasn't clear to me if it was being applied to the XM satellite
>>signals.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ___
>>>

Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-10 Thread Andy Walls 
Just to be clear, Sirius is different than XM (even though they merged).  The 
lower edge of the 12.5 MHz XM allocation is at 2332.5 MHz, IIRC.  The upper 
edge of the 12.5 MHZ Sirius allocation is there as well.

Sirius does have patents on hierarchical modulation, which I'm guessing they 
would use in the Sirius band.

Regards, 
Andy

On April 10, 2016 5:36:08 PM EDT, Chris Kuethe  wrote:
>Thanks to Steve for hitting me with a clue-stick. For anyone else
>playing along at home, the Sirius patch antenna has an integrated amp
>and takes inline power - a fact that I did not see anywhere.
>
>This test was done with a hackrf tuned to 2.3265GHz, 20Msps, 8MHz
>analog filter - there is clearly something interesting going on when
>inline power is enabled with the "bias=1" argument.
>
>On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 6:32 AM, Andy Walls
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Andy Walls
>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere
>AFAIK
>>> > so
>>> > even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do
>much
>>> > with it.
>>>
>>> > Thank you all for the conversation, it is pretty interesting. 
>That
>>> > makes sense
>>> > that they have a proprietary protocol, it's a shame though.  Is
>the text
>>> > that
>>> > comes through encoded in a proprietary way?
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone know what the frequency of channel 1 is on (I'd like
>to see
>>> > if I
>>> > can even see the signal popping up above the noise)?
>>> >
>>> > ~Jason
>>>
>>> The XM center freqs are shown here:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/technologies/satellite-broadcast/xm-satellite/xm-satellite-technology/xm-satellite-technology_55613.html
>>>
>>> The Sats are QPSK, the terrestrial is COFDM.
>>>
>>> That page also states the audio codec for voice programming is AMBE,
>and
>>> AAC+ for all other programming.
>>>
>>>
>>> The XM radio patents give you a lot of clues:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22
>>>
>>> Images 4 and 6 of this one:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.google.com/patents/US7020217?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwj5ycbeoP_LAhXEXh4KHWSdDeA4HhDoAQgwMAM
>>> Image 4 of this one:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.google.com/patents/US6510317?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwikn4Ogof_LAhVIJx4KHYaYCt44KBDoAQhTMAg
>>>
>>> And maybe the most useful I've skimmed:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.google.com/patents/US7123875?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22+MCM=en=X=0ahUKEwidqpT1of_LAhUFXh4KHXqIDuEQ6AEIKjAC
>>> Images 1, 5, and 6.
>>>
>>> This particular patent also indicates that after the demod, RS
>decoder,
>>> viterbi decoder, and deinterleaver, that an MPEG TS *might* be the
>>> transport multiplex.
>>>
>>> The images show that the decryption happens after all the FEC and
>>> deinterleaving is handled and also after SL (service layer)
>decoding.
>>> The I2C connected external NVRAM is likely where the program
>decryption
>>> key is stored (inside of a tamper boundary), according to other
>internet
>>> pages from 7 years ago.
>>>
>>> So I'm guessing you have to totally demodulate and decode one of the
>SAT
>>> or terrestrial channels, and then dig around in a (hopefully MPEG)
>>> transport stream to find your unencrypted "Channel 1"
>>>
>>
>> The STA400A datasheet gives a lot of good information about the XM
>signal
>> characteristics, bit rate, RCC filter bandwidth, code rates and
>puncturing,
>> proper order of FEC blocks, etc.:
>>
>> http://www.chipfind.net/datasheet/pdf/stmicroelectronics/sta400a.pdf
>>
>> Enough info to give one half a chance of getting the demodulation
>correct.
>> It also talks a little bit about the frame structure.
>>
>> This MAXIM 2140 App Note has a yet another picture of the spectrum
>> allocation, that also shows Sirius' and WCS' allocations in context:
>>
>> http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN3851.pdf
>>
>> I also found a Sirius patent that talks about an overlay modulation,
>but it
>> wasn't clear to me if it was being applied to the XM satellite
>signals.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andy
>>
>> ___
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>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
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>>


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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-09 Thread Andy Walls 
On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Andy Walls 
wrote:

>
> > The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere AFAIK
> so
> > even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do much
> with it.
>
> > Thank you all for the conversation, it is pretty interesting.  That
> makes sense
> > that they have a proprietary protocol, it's a shame though.  Is the text
> that
> > comes through encoded in a proprietary way?
> >
> > Does anyone know what the frequency of channel 1 is on (I'd like to see
> if I
> > can even see the signal popping up above the noise)?
> >
> > ~Jason
>
> The XM center freqs are shown here:
>
>
> https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/technologies/satellite-broadcast/xm-satellite/xm-satellite-technology/xm-satellite-technology_55613.html
>
> The Sats are QPSK, the terrestrial is COFDM.
>
> That page also states the audio codec for voice programming is AMBE, and
> AAC+ for all other programming.
>
>
> The XM radio patents give you a lot of clues:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22
>
> Images 4 and 6 of this one:
>
> https://www.google.com/patents/US7020217?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwj5ycbeoP_LAhXEXh4KHWSdDeA4HhDoAQgwMAM
> Image 4 of this one:
>
> https://www.google.com/patents/US6510317?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwikn4Ogof_LAhVIJx4KHYaYCt44KBDoAQhTMAg
>
> And maybe the most useful I've skimmed:
>
> https://www.google.com/patents/US7123875?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22+MCM=en=X=0ahUKEwidqpT1of_LAhUFXh4KHXqIDuEQ6AEIKjAC
> Images 1, 5, and 6.
>
> This particular patent also indicates that after the demod, RS decoder,
> viterbi decoder, and deinterleaver, that an MPEG TS *might* be the
> transport multiplex.
>
> The images show that the decryption happens after all the FEC and
> deinterleaving is handled and also after SL (service layer) decoding.
> The I2C connected external NVRAM is likely where the program decryption
> key is stored (inside of a tamper boundary), according to other internet
> pages from 7 years ago.
>
> So I'm guessing you have to totally demodulate and decode one of the SAT
> or terrestrial channels, and then dig around in a (hopefully MPEG)
> transport stream to find your unencrypted "Channel 1"
>
>
The STA400A datasheet gives a lot of good information about the XM signal
characteristics, bit rate, RCC filter bandwidth, code rates and puncturing,
proper order of FEC blocks, etc.:

http://www.chipfind.net/datasheet/pdf/stmicroelectronics/sta400a.pdf

Enough info to give one half a chance of getting the demodulation correct.
It also talks a little bit about the frame structure.

This MAXIM 2140 App Note has a yet another picture of the spectrum
allocation, that also shows Sirius' and WCS' allocations in context:

http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN3851.pdf

I also found a Sirius patent that talks about an overlay modulation, but it
wasn't clear to me if it was being applied to the XM satellite signals.

Regards,
Andy
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-08 Thread Andy Walls 

> The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere AFAIK so
> even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do much with it.

> Thank you all for the conversation, it is pretty interesting.  That makes 
> sense 
> that they have a proprietary protocol, it's a shame though.  Is the text that 
> comes through encoded in a proprietary way?
> 
> Does anyone know what the frequency of channel 1 is on (I'd like to see if I 
> can even see the signal popping up above the noise)?
> 
> ~Jason

The XM center freqs are shown here:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/technologies/satellite-broadcast/xm-satellite/xm-satellite-technology/xm-satellite-technology_55613.html

The Sats are QPSK, the terrestrial is COFDM.

That page also states the audio codec for voice programming is AMBE, and
AAC+ for all other programming.


The XM radio patents give you a lot of clues:
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22

Images 4 and 6 of this one:
https://www.google.com/patents/US7020217?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwj5ycbeoP_LAhXEXh4KHWSdDeA4HhDoAQgwMAM
Image 4 of this one:
https://www.google.com/patents/US6510317?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22=en=X=0ahUKEwikn4Ogof_LAhVIJx4KHYaYCt44KBDoAQhTMAg

And maybe the most useful I've skimmed:
https://www.google.com/patents/US7123875?dq=inassignee:%22Xm+Satellite+Radio+Inc.%22+MCM=en=X=0ahUKEwidqpT1of_LAhUFXh4KHXqIDuEQ6AEIKjAC
Images 1, 5, and 6.

This particular patent also indicates that after the demod, RS decoder,
viterbi decoder, and deinterleaver, that an MPEG TS *might* be the
transport multiplex.

The images show that the decryption happens after all the FEC and
deinterleaving is handled and also after SL (service layer) decoding.
The I2C connected external NVRAM is likely where the program decryption
key is stored (inside of a tamper boundary), according to other internet
pages from 7 years ago.

So I'm guessing you have to totally demodulate and decode one of the SAT
or terrestrial channels, and then dig around in a (hopefully MPEG)
transport stream to find your unencrypted "Channel 1"

Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-08 Thread Jason Matusiak 

The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere AFAIK so
even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do much with it.


Thank you all for the conversation, it is pretty interesting.  That makes sense 
that they have a proprietary protocol, it's a shame though.  Is the text that 
comes through encoded in a proprietary way?

Does anyone know what the frequency of channel 1 is on (I'd like to see if I 
can even see the signal popping up above the noise)?

~Jason


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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-08 Thread Sylvain Munaut 
Hi,


> I was thinking about XM radio today and how channel 1 on it is sent in the
> clear (if you don't have a subscription, you can tune to it and hear their
> adds).  I haven't found a lot of information (so I think I know the answer),
> but has anyone looked into an XM receiver in GR?

The audio codec is proprietary and not documented anywhere AFAIK so
even if you demod the bitstream, you won't be able to do much with it.

Cheers,

Sylvain

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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-08 Thread Marcus Müller 
Hello Steve,

that sounds like an interesting project; a couple of friends and I went
to the US for GRCON'14, rented a car and somehow Sirius and XM spiked
our interest, but as you can imagine, it's kind of hard to receive those
in Europe.

Could you share a bit of your flowgraph with the community? What
synchronizer blocks are you using?

Not having played around with them overly much, I've heard people having
great success using the PFB clock recovery, as that seems to be pretty
robust against amplitude variation, so that'd be my "Hm, I guess you
could try that" idea.

Cheers,
Marcus

On 08.04.2016 01:30, Steve Katzberg wrote:
> Jason,
>  
> I am involved in a project that needs the bit stream from XM but we do
> not need it decrypted.  The acquisition of the unencrypted Channel 1
> would be fun to do, but so far I cannot get Gnuradio blocks to
> properly lock on to the signal.  The Costas loop drifts through he
> QPSK constellation, but won't stay locked on it.  That probably means
> I don't have something right in GRC or there is an overlay modulation
> that confuses the Costas loop phase locking.  Until either my hybrid
> hardware/GRC setup starts locking onto the XM signal there will be no
> Channel 1.
>  
> Steve Katzberg
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Jason Matusiak <mailto:ja...@gardettoengineering.com>
> *To:* GNURadio Mailing List <mailto:discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 07, 2016 5:14 PM
> *Subject:* [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR
>
> I was thinking about XM radio today and how channel 1 on it is
> sent in the clear (if you don't have a subscription, you can tune
> to it and hear their adds).  I haven't found a lot of information
> (so I think I know the answer), but has anyone looked into an XM
> receiver in GR?
>
> --------
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-07 Thread Chris Kuethe 
I think there is an overlay modulation. I'll try dig up the source where I
saw that.
On Apr 7, 2016 16:30, "Steve Katzberg" <stevekatzb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Jason,
>
> I am involved in a project that needs the bit stream from XM but we do not
> need it decrypted.  The acquisition of the unencrypted Channel 1 would be
> fun to do, but so far I cannot get Gnuradio blocks to properly lock on to
> the signal.  The Costas loop drifts through he QPSK constellation, but
> won't stay locked on it.  That probably means I don't have something right
> in GRC or there is an overlay modulation that confuses the Costas loop
> phase locking.  Until either my hybrid hardware/GRC setup starts locking
> onto the XM signal there will be no Channel 1.
>
> Steve Katzberg
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Jason Matusiak <ja...@gardettoengineering.com>
> *To:* GNURadio Mailing List <discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 07, 2016 5:14 PM
> *Subject:* [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR
>
> I was thinking about XM radio today and how channel 1 on it is sent in the
> clear (if you don't have a subscription, you can tune to it and hear their
> adds).  I haven't found a lot of information (so I think I know the
> answer), but has anyone looked into an XM receiver in GR?
>
> --
>
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-07 Thread Steve Katzberg 
Jason,

I am involved in a project that needs the bit stream from XM but we do not need 
it decrypted.  The acquisition of the unencrypted Channel 1 would be fun to do, 
but so far I cannot get Gnuradio blocks to properly lock on to the signal.  The 
Costas loop drifts through he QPSK constellation, but won't stay locked on it.  
That probably means I don't have something right in GRC or there is an overlay 
modulation that confuses the Costas loop phase locking.  Until either my hybrid 
hardware/GRC setup starts locking onto the XM signal there will be no Channel 1.

Steve Katzberg
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jason Matusiak 
  To: GNURadio Mailing List 
  Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 5:14 PM
  Subject: [Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR


  I was thinking about XM radio today and how channel 1 on it is sent in the 
clear (if you don't have a subscription, you can tune to it and hear their 
adds).  I haven't found a lot of information (so I think I know the answer), 
but has anyone looked into an XM receiver in GR?


--


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[Discuss-gnuradio] XM on GR

2016-04-07 Thread Jason Matusiak 
I was thinking about XM radio today and how channel 1 on it is sent in the clear (if you don't have a subscription, you can tune to it and hear their adds).  I haven't found a lot of information (so I think I know the answer), but has anyone looked into an XM receiver in GR?

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