RE: GNUstep's default theme...
That live image is very old, I can say ancient. Étoilé nowadays is different, for e.g. that live uses Azalea as window manager, but now is deprecated and in the Étoilé svn there is a new one called ProjectManager, but it still needs some work. So, there is no modern live image downloadable, but I use one made (and mading) by me, that is a hybrid of Étoilé and GNUstep staffs. I use for e.g., the GWorkspace as workspace and a modified version od WindowMaker. To get all to works together the job was triky. Why I not release as a little demo? because to do that I want some features: 1) A system tray in the EtoileMenuServer, so the networkmanager try icon, and others, will appear making it/them usable. I have the code, but is old and I have few time to work on, because I have to finish the MUC implementation in XMPPKit, and actually I'm writing a calculator that can handle expressions. 2) A modern window manager. Someone can just give a look to ProjectManager, it basically works but need features and work to make it stable and usable . 3) A file manager. There's an exemple in Étoilé svn. 4) A modern workspace with a good flexibility, that can be configurable. For e.g it has to give the possibility to choose what app you prefer to open a file/document/etc (Right click... Open With -etc etec) 5) A new Dock. 6) Somethings that actually I don't remember. 7) People that want to do something of new. Maybe later I will post here some screenshots Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 03:12:56 +0100 Subject: Re: GNUstep's default theme... From: lpro...@gmail.com CC: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org On 14 September 2013 20:53, Muhammad Hussein Nasrollahpour iapplechocol...@me.com wrote: Take a look at http://etoileos.com/downloads/. You can install it or download VirtualBox image. Ah, OK, thanks for that. Let me rephrase my question, then: Is there a downloadable copy that is newer than 4½ years old? -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi Stefan. On 09/12/13 15:46, Stefan Bidi wrote: Tango is definitely free software! I'm not sure what the actual license, though. A few years ago it was incorporated into the freedesktop.org http://freedesktop.org effort (http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library). I will start work on a Tango theme. I am not fond of these icons, but they will help to be uniform as they are generic and use. I will start with a test of colors, accents and just a couple of icons to get an idea. I expect to have the same troubles as with the almost-done sleek theme. I need certain support from the themeing engine. I will commit to three themes, but I hope I will get help from the engine when needed. I plan an evolutionary relase, to get something showable soon. Let me call this my last attempt: I will put work, but I hope in works for others. I will thus commit into 3 pure Thematic themes for now: - Sleek - Neos - Tango I will update the pages, blog about the progress, incorporate it in screenshots (maybe in all the ranting, nobody has noticed that the default screenshots of the revamped website homepage are both themed) Stay tuned and if yo uwant to beta-test and contribute, get over to the GAP mailing list. Or I will announce stuff here, as you and users will prefer. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
At the DevMeeting (and a bit since), Quentin and Eric have been working on making the Aristo2 theme from Cappuccino ( http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/ and http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/showcase/ ) work with GNUstep. I think it's a nice choice, as it's clean, consistent, and looks like the sort of thing that new users are used to from web apps. David On 14 Sep 2013, at 15:35, Riccardo Mottola riccardo.mott...@libero.it wrote: Hi Stefan. On 09/12/13 15:46, Stefan Bidi wrote: Tango is definitely free software! I'm not sure what the actual license, though. A few years ago it was incorporated into the freedesktop.org effort (http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library). I will start work on a Tango theme. I am not fond of these icons, but they will help to be uniform as they are generic and use. I will start with a test of colors, accents and just a couple of icons to get an idea. I expect to have the same troubles as with the almost-done sleek theme. I need certain support from the themeing engine. I will commit to three themes, but I hope I will get help from the engine when needed. I plan an evolutionary relase, to get something showable soon. Let me call this my last attempt: I will put work, but I hope in works for others. I will thus commit into 3 pure Thematic themes for now: - Sleek - Neos - Tango I will update the pages, blog about the progress, incorporate it in screenshots (maybe in all the ranting, nobody has noticed that the default screenshots of the revamped website homepage are both themed) Stay tuned and if yo uwant to beta-test and contribute, get over to the GAP mailing list. Or I will announce stuff here, as you and users will prefer. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Ricardo: Now that dbuskit exists, is it possible to make System Preferences plugins for configuring Xrandr, pulseaudio, and network-manager? This would make System Preferences useful for configuring the system. I've looked at Etoile and there's a lot of project duplication. They have their own version of system preferences which frankly is api-compatible and duplicating functionality. I think the ideal would be to merge parts of etoile into gnustep. The EtoileMenuServer.app program completes the functionality of the horizontal Macintosh Menu Style in terms of making gnustep act like OSX. I'd like to see it get rolled into gnustep as an optional add-on, and integrate it with system preferences plugins so that you can have a dropdown on the menubar for volume control, wireless network selection, and screen resolution selection like OSX has. On 14 September 2013 22:48, David Chisnall david.chisn...@cl.cam.ac.ukwrote: At the DevMeeting (and a bit since), Quentin and Eric have been working on making the Aristo2 theme from Cappuccino ( http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/ and http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/showcase/ ) work with GNUstep. I think it's a nice choice, as it's clean, consistent, and looks like the sort of thing that new users are used to from web apps. David On 14 Sep 2013, at 15:35, Riccardo Mottola riccardo.mott...@libero.it wrote: Hi Stefan. On 09/12/13 15:46, Stefan Bidi wrote: Tango is definitely free software! I'm not sure what the actual license, though. A few years ago it was incorporated into the freedesktop.org effort (http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library). I will start work on a Tango theme. I am not fond of these icons, but they will help to be uniform as they are generic and use. I will start with a test of colors, accents and just a couple of icons to get an idea. I expect to have the same troubles as with the almost-done sleek theme. I need certain support from the themeing engine. I will commit to three themes, but I hope I will get help from the engine when needed. I plan an evolutionary relase, to get something showable soon. Let me call this my last attempt: I will put work, but I hope in works for others. I will thus commit into 3 pure Thematic themes for now: - Sleek - Neos - Tango I will update the pages, blog about the progress, incorporate it in screenshots (maybe in all the ranting, nobody has noticed that the default screenshots of the revamped website homepage are both themed) Stay tuned and if yo uwant to beta-test and contribute, get over to the GAP mailing list. Or I will announce stuff here, as you and users will prefer. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
On 14 September 2013 14:30, James Carthew jcart...@gmail.com wrote: I've looked at Etoile Has there ever been a public release, demo, beta or anything of Etoilé? -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, David Chisnall wrote: At the DevMeeting (and a bit since), Quentin and Eric have been working on making the Aristo2 theme from Cappuccino ( http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/ and http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/showcase/ ) work with GNUstep. I think it's a nice choice, as it's clean, consistent, and looks like the sort of thing that new users are used to from web apps. well, it is not my style and I don't like web-apps and I don't want my desktop to resemble it. I understood Stefan's request as more a sort of re-style of our theme which would blend more into what for example current Emacs or Thunderbird use as icons. Let's just have choice: the drawback is development time, but we can probably discuss forever which theme is better without ever agree. So the bests thing is to provide them and let the user choose, depending also on the kind of environment he wants to blend in. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, On 09/14/13 15:30, James Carthew wrote: Ricardo: Now that dbuskit exists, is it possible to make System Preferences plugins for configuring Xrandr, pulseaudio, and network-manager? This would make System Preferences useful for configuring the system. I've looked at Etoile and there's a lot of project duplication. They have their own version of system preferences which frankly is api-compatible and duplicating functionality. I think the ideal would be to merge parts of etoile into gnustep. The EtoileMenuServer.app program completes the functionality of the horizontal Macintosh Menu Style in terms of making gnustep act like OSX. I'd like to see it get rolled into gnustep as an optional add-on, and integrate it with system preferences plugins so that you can have a dropdown on the menubar for volume control, wireless network selection, and screen resolution selection like OSX has. Well, sure it is possible SystemPreferences offers an API for which different kind of controls can be installed, just make your own preferences bundle. Right now I shy away from making system-specific stuff, because it is a lot of trouble, the only thing which I do is battery monitor. I try to keep alive an incredible number of applications which still need to be updated and stabilized, I try to develop some further, I work on themes. Thus I need to set a couple of priorities, additional modules to SystemPreferences are currently not on my short-term TO DO. The only thing which I thought about is an Xrandr thing to manage the monitors, of which i feel the need using GNUstep more and more on my laptop(s). I imagine that if another project would make a distribution (e.g. installable live-cd) it would need to chose a basis operating system, kernel and userland. E.g. Linux or a BSD flavour and then make its specific modules. And just add them as bundles. I started working on a volume control application, but as of now it remained its infancy, because it turned out to be more than a weekend project. I'm not that fond of the mac-style menu, thus while I understand that some people like it, won't invest personal time in it because I try to prioritize on other stuff I deem more interesting or important. Regarding the menu-lets and their counterpart of the windows system tray, I'm still thinking of a good way to integrate them in a NeXT style interface. I thought of a couple of designs, but not too convinced by any, as of yet. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
On Sep 14, 2013, at 6:36 AM, Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 September 2013 14:30, James Carthew jcart...@gmail.com wrote: I've looked at Etoile Has there ever been a public release, demo, beta or anything of Etoilé? Take a look at http://etoileos.com/downloads/. You can install it or download VirtualBox image. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
On 14 September 2013 20:53, Muhammad Hussein Nasrollahpour iapplechocol...@me.com wrote: Take a look at http://etoileos.com/downloads/. You can install it or download VirtualBox image. Ah, OK, thanks for that. Let me rephrase my question, then: Is there a downloadable copy that is newer than 4½ years old? -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
German, I agree we should show GNUstep running with different themes. My current concern is the default theme when the user has no themes installed. Showing the old, dated, NeXT theme doesn't help us because people associate it with the old technology. Allow me to be clear… I like the NeXT theme, but from experience, I think it turns people away. Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com Open Logic Corporation, President/CEO GNUstep Lead Developer On Sep 12, 2013, at 1:49 AM, Germán Arias ger...@xelalug.org wrote: On 2013-09-11 23:29:07 -0600 Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg I don't think the default theme is the problem. The problem is that the users don't see, at website, screenshots of gnustep running with other themes or in other desktops. Or even an visible link to get other themes. I remember that some time ago was discussed about put a link with screenshots at website. For example, we can put images of gnustep running on Gnome, KDE, Etoile and Windows. Alongside the default theme on WindowMaker. Also, we can add a couple of themes in GUI package. As examples of what is possible. So, the user can switch the theme easy. I can add some icons to Silver theme, to release a new version soon. Germán. ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Also, we need a small GNUstep's configuration guide for new users. And a FAQ, at website not at wiki, with questions like: I use KDE but GNUstep looks alien ... Germán. On 2013-09-11 23:52:09 -0600 Lundberg, Johannes johan...@brilliantservice.co.jp wrote: Yes, I totally agree. Maybe put up more screenshots of GNUstep apps running in different styles on different systems? Johannes Lundberg Project leader and lead developer of Mirama OS (previously Viking OS) My blog http://brilliantobjc.blogspot.com Mirama homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp/viking/ bloghttp://hmdviking.blogspot.jp Company homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
And we finally should fix the cursor issues. These are more evident with in-window menu. Germán. On 2013-09-12 00:03:49 -0600 Germán Arias germanandre...@gmail.com wrote: Also, we need a small GNUstep's configuration guide for new users. And a FAQ, at website not at wiki, with questions like: I use KDE but GNUstep looks alien ... Germán. On 2013-09-11 23:52:09 -0600 Lundberg, Johannes johan...@brilliantservice.co.jp wrote: Yes, I totally agree. Maybe put up more screenshots of GNUstep apps running in different styles on different systems? Johannes Lundberg Project leader and lead developer of Mirama OS (previously Viking OS) My blog http://brilliantobjc.blogspot.com Mirama homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp/viking/ bloghttp://hmdviking.blogspot.jp Company homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Am 12.09.2013 um 08:03 schrieb Germán Arias: Also, we need a small GNUstep's configuration guide for new users. And a FAQ, at website not at wiki, with questions like: I use KDE but GNUstep looks alien ... Would it be possible to detect the desktop that is running and auto-adapt the default theme? e.g. KDE - KDE theme Windows - Windows theme WindowMaker - OpenStep theme Gnome - Gnome theme unknown - OpenStep theme If it works in 90% of the cases it would be better than 0%. Germán. On 2013-09-11 23:52:09 -0600 Lundberg, Johannes johan...@brilliantservice.co.jp wrote: Yes, I totally agree. Maybe put up more screenshots of GNUstep apps running in different styles on different systems? Johannes Lundberg Project leader and lead developer of Mirama OS (previously Viking OS) My blog http://brilliantobjc.blogspot.com Mirama homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp/viking/ bloghttp://hmdviking.blogspot.jp Company homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
This is something I had thought of doing years ago, but it was shot down. The only thing I don't like about it is that it requires all of those themes to be compiled and installed by default. That doesn't rule it out as a possible solution, though. On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 12.09.2013 um 08:03 schrieb Germán Arias: Also, we need a small GNUstep's configuration guide for new users. And a FAQ, at website not at wiki, with questions like: I use KDE but GNUstep looks alien ... Would it be possible to detect the desktop that is running and auto-adapt the default theme? e.g. KDE - KDE theme Windows - Windows theme WindowMaker - OpenStep theme Gnome - Gnome theme unknown - OpenStep theme If it works in 90% of the cases it would be better than 0%. Germán. On 2013-09-11 23:52:09 -0600 Lundberg, Johannes johan...@brilliantservice.co.jp wrote: Yes, I totally agree. Maybe put up more screenshots of GNUstep apps running in different styles on different systems? Johannes Lundberg Project leader and lead developer of Mirama OS (previously Viking OS) My blog http://brilliantobjc.blogspot.com Mirama homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp/viking/ bloghttp://hmdviking.blogspot.jp Company homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, On 09/12/13 07:49, Germán Arias wrote: On 2013-09-11 23:29:07 -0600 Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think the default theme is the problem. The problem is that the users don't see, at website, screenshots of gnustep running with other themes or in other desktops. Or even an visible link to get other themes. I remember that some time ago was discussed about put a link with screenshots at website. For example, we can put images of gnustep running on Gnome, KDE, Etoile and Windows. Alongside the default theme on WindowMaker. well, there are few usable and complete themes out there. Thus there are few screenshots with them There are however, if you look on the website, wiki or on the few blogs, there is a good percentage of screenshots taken with different themes, including windows. However, given that few themes are finished enough to be called usable and given that we have few screenshots circulating at all one could get that impression indeed. More than a boring mega gallery, their appearance need to be felt natural, see my other post about that. Also, we can add a couple of themes in GUI package. As examples of what is possible. So, the user can switch the theme easy. Of course, theme needs to be packaged, but themes need to be finished too. I consider my themes still very rough, although Sleek is close to a release. I can add some icons to Silver theme, to release a new version soon. Blog about it :) Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, On 09/12/13 07:29, Gregory Casamento wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? I disagree... (not on the first impression thing of course). Many people don't even know what OpenSTEP and APIs are, thus don't worry. I intended to write a cynic email about the typical topics we get when somebody looses confidence in the project, which I read again and again in the past 10 years. But let me write something more constructive. Everytime theming is mentioned (as with other critical topics in this category) there is bla bla, but on the first moment of action needed fixing or coding to improve the situation, things will slow down. As others wrote, we need to show themes, but that means we need to have themes! These themes need to be seen in screenshots, need to be packaged, need to be reasonably complete and usable! It is much better not to release a theme than to release something badly usable: again, a matter of first impressions. Now I did a test, I searched google theming with bing. Looking at the images, we do get screenshots! Our main screenshot is a dark themed image... we have blog posts. Thus it is fine. [First point: check how things really are, not how things think you are]. However... the 4th and 5th links are... devastating. http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Themes If anybody interested in themes makes it up to that wiki page, he will run away scared :) 1) only one theme is directly mentioned, Silver (Kudos, German!) 2) there is no real page about Silver... the link is directly for a download 3) the rest are just a couple of links to GAP (where the landing page is also quite incomplete!), etoilé and some SVN links??? 4) the real way of changing themes is clear only for people actually knowing what they are speaking about... navigating more, goes to this page (even linked in our own wiki): http://gnustep.blogspot.it/2008/01/system-preferences-and-theme.html No images at all ;) This is terrible, IMO. a couple of ideas for our wiki 1) this is the place where to put more screenhots, those that German likes :) and he is right in this case 2) the page should cite other themes with their own WIKI pages, not direct SVN links or tarballs 3) each major theme should have its own page with a screenshot, release instructions (akin of our Apps) 4) GAPs page should be updated too, it was a good start 3 years ago though :) 5) changing themes should be shown, through our info-panel per application and through system-preferences And of course, if the gnome and windows theme were in better shape they could be released at leas in a 0.1 stage which could allow for better screenshots, pages... Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
I want to make it clear that I'm not referring to themes which change colors or do simple tricks to change the appearance of the GUI. It has to go further than that. Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com Open Logic Corporation, President/CEO GNUstep Lead Developer On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:13 AM, Riccardo Mottola riccardo.mott...@libero.it wrote: Hi, On 09/12/13 07:49, Germán Arias wrote: On 2013-09-11 23:29:07 -0600 Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think the default theme is the problem. The problem is that the users don't see, at website, screenshots of gnustep running with other themes or in other desktops. Or even an visible link to get other themes. I remember that some time ago was discussed about put a link with screenshots at website. For example, we can put images of gnustep running on Gnome, KDE, Etoile and Windows. Alongside the default theme on WindowMaker. well, there are few usable and complete themes out there. Thus there are few screenshots with them There are however, if you look on the website, wiki or on the few blogs, there is a good percentage of screenshots taken with different themes, including windows. However, given that few themes are finished enough to be called usable and given that we have few screenshots circulating at all one could get that impression indeed. More than a boring mega gallery, their appearance need to be felt natural, see my other post about that. Also, we can add a couple of themes in GUI package. As examples of what is possible. So, the user can switch the theme easy. Of course, theme needs to be packaged, but themes need to be finished too. I consider my themes still very rough, although Sleek is close to a release. I can add some icons to Silver theme, to release a new version soon. Blog about it :) Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, On 09/12/13 11:28, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Now I did a test, I searched google theming with bing. Looking at the images, we do get screenshots! Our main screenshot is a dark themed image... we have blog posts. Thus it is fine. [First point: check how things really are, not how things think you are]. However... the 4th and 5th links are... devastating. http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Themes equally ridicule is the systempreferences page! Provided that a new release is due soon, it shows something really antique: Look here: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/systempreferences.html do you see any mentioning of themes? it still mentions *color schemes*... this is a jump in the past. The release is stone-age old! Being somehow the de-facto maintainer of system preferences or at least of its Themes module... I'll correct this. I'll update the page even if there is no release yet and will give a spped-up for a release! Sorry guys! This also proves that sometimes we are better than what we are, but we are damn bad at showing it, rare releases, etc... Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
I guess I'll put my 2 cents in... To me, the look itself isn't that outdated. Personally, even on Windows, I use the Classic theme because of the well defined edges on GUI artifacts. That said, I do think the default GNUstep theme needs an update. The gray is too dark, the icons do not follow recent developments, and some GUI artifacts, like the knob, just look weird. In my opinion, we don't need to re-do the whole thing, just update it and bring it in line to today's monitors (I've heard it said here that the default theme mimics the NeXT theme, and you could adjust the gamma on NeXT monitors but it's not something anyone does today). My suggestions would be: - Lighten the color up a bit. Like I said, the gray is just too dark compared to what everyone else is doing. See the GTK+ default and Windows Classic themes, like it or not, people accept these as the default classic theme for application. - Use the Tango icons. I know people might not agree with this, but the Tango icons fit better with almost everything else out there and are kept fairly up to date. - Minor updates to some of the images. That's all just my opinion on the issue. I wouldn't have any time to help, all my spare time goes into corebase and that's already too far behind schedule as it is. On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Riccardo Mottola riccardo.mott...@libero.it wrote: Hi, On 09/12/13 11:28, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Now I did a test, I searched google theming with bing. Looking at the images, we do get screenshots! Our main screenshot is a dark themed image... we have blog posts. Thus it is fine. [First point: check how things really are, not how things think you are]. However... the 4th and 5th links are... devastating. http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Themes equally ridicule is the systempreferences page! Provided that a new release is due soon, it shows something really antique: Look here: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/systempreferences.html do you see any mentioning of themes? it still mentions *color schemes*... this is a jump in the past. The release is stone-age old! Being somehow the de-facto maintainer of system preferences or at least of its Themes module... I'll correct this. I'll update the page even if there is no release yet and will give a spped-up for a release! Sorry guys! This also proves that sometimes we are better than what we are, but we are damn bad at showing it, rare releases, etc... Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
More apps, more usability, more desktop environment.the biggest dealbreakers for me are webkit, and lack of tools in system preferences.app, can't set monitor, keyboard, mouse, sound, network options. Add those sections to system preferences and it'll start feeling like a complete desktop environment. It's a nice API but unless you're targetting OSX people just don't seem to be interested in deploying objective-c code. A Linux/BSD desktop based around gnustep would be very successful once it hit certain usability thresholds. I think the things I listed above are what's needed to push the project from obscurity to mainstream popularity. On 12 September 2013 15:29, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.comwrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Hi, On 09/12/13 14:26, Stefan Bidi wrote: I guess I'll put my 2 cents in... To me, the look itself isn't that outdated. Personally, even on Windows, I use the Classic theme because of the well defined edges on GUI artifacts. That said, I do think the default GNUstep theme needs an update. The gray is too dark, the icons do not follow recent developments, and some GUI artifacts, like the knob, just look weird. In my opinion, we don't need to re-do the whole thing, just update it and bring it in line to today's monitors (I've heard it said here that the default theme mimics the NeXT theme, and you could adjust the gamma on NeXT monitors but it's not something anyone does today). My suggestions would be: - Lighten the color up a bit. Like I said, the gray is just too dark compared to what everyone else is doing. See the GTK+ default and Windows Classic themes, like it or not, people accept these as the default classic theme for application. - Use the Tango icons. I know people might not agree with this, but the Tango icons fit better with almost everything else out there and are kept fairly up to date. - Minor updates to some of the images. I think it is easy to make a bidi-tango-light (please come up with a better name) theme and add it. Before making something a default it should exist :) Such a theme as you describe should be easy to make with Thematic. Sadly it is not (Sleek teaches that). if you want I can help. What license are the Tango icons? I can start the work for you in GAP if you like. That's all just my opinion on the issue. I wouldn't have any time to help, all my spare time goes into corebase and that's already too far behind schedule as it is. :) yes.. and all the rest of things I do. So I might help here, but don't leave me alone when I have a problem. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Tango is definitely free software! I'm not sure what the actual license, though. A few years ago it was incorporated into the freedesktop.orgeffort ( http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library). On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Riccardo Mottola riccardo.mott...@libero.it wrote: Hi, On 09/12/13 14:26, Stefan Bidi wrote: I guess I'll put my 2 cents in... To me, the look itself isn't that outdated. Personally, even on Windows, I use the Classic theme because of the well defined edges on GUI artifacts. That said, I do think the default GNUstep theme needs an update. The gray is too dark, the icons do not follow recent developments, and some GUI artifacts, like the knob, just look weird. In my opinion, we don't need to re-do the whole thing, just update it and bring it in line to today's monitors (I've heard it said here that the default theme mimics the NeXT theme, and you could adjust the gamma on NeXT monitors but it's not something anyone does today). My suggestions would be: - Lighten the color up a bit. Like I said, the gray is just too dark compared to what everyone else is doing. See the GTK+ default and Windows Classic themes, like it or not, people accept these as the default classic theme for application. - Use the Tango icons. I know people might not agree with this, but the Tango icons fit better with almost everything else out there and are kept fairly up to date. - Minor updates to some of the images. I think it is easy to make a bidi-tango-light (please come up with a better name) theme and add it. Before making something a default it should exist :) Such a theme as you describe should be easy to make with Thematic. Sadly it is not (Sleek teaches that). if you want I can help. What license are the Tango icons? I can start the work for you in GAP if you like. That's all just my opinion on the issue. I wouldn't have any time to help, all my spare time goes into corebase and that's already too far behind schedule as it is. :) yes.. and all the rest of things I do. So I might help here, but don't leave me alone when I have a problem. Riccardo __**_ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/**listinfo/discuss-gnustephttps://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
GNUstep's default theme...
I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
On 2013-09-11 23:29:07 -0600 Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg I don't think the default theme is the problem. The problem is that the users don't see, at website, screenshots of gnustep running with other themes or in other desktops. Or even an visible link to get other themes. I remember that some time ago was discussed about put a link with screenshots at website. For example, we can put images of gnustep running on Gnome, KDE, Etoile and Windows. Alongside the default theme on WindowMaker. Also, we can add a couple of themes in GUI package. As examples of what is possible. So, the user can switch the theme easy. I can add some icons to Silver theme, to release a new version soon. Germán. ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep's default theme...
Yes, I totally agree. Maybe put up more screenshots of GNUstep apps running in different styles on different systems? Johannes Lundberg Project leader and lead developer of Mirama OS (previously Viking OS) My blog http://brilliantobjc.blogspot.com Mirama homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp/viking/ bloghttp://hmdviking.blogspot.jp Company homepage http://www.brilliantservice.co.jp On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Gregory Casamento greg.casame...@gmail.com wrote: I've often felt as though our default look causes people to have a bad first impression of GNUstep. First impressions and out of the box experience have a huge impact. Many people make the mistake of believing we are ONLY OpenStep based on the look alone without really looking at the API. Does anyone have any opinions on this? Greg -- Gregory Casamento Open Logic Corporation, Principal Consultant yahoo/skype: greg_casamento, aol: gjcasa (240)274-9630 (Cell) http://www.gnustep.org http://heronsperch.blogspot.com ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
