Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
On 28 Nov 2007, at 09:32, Markus Hitter wrote: 10.5.1 (Intel) This is a brand new OS with a lot of design decisions not seen before, so some failures aren't _that_ surprising. As Apple prefers to collect 300 new features before offering them to non-paying developers, switching to a community driven OS would likely avoid such disasters. I am very seriously considering switching to a Unix variant + GnuStep (be it Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc. - I do not know). The Unix layer of Apple is definitively unsatisfactory. As is their approach to releasing software - release lots of flashy gummy but pay no attention to whether staple features actually work. But I believe that most likely switchers / potential valuable developer contributors to GnuStep are now on Mac OS X. You have to make it easy for such people to install GnuStep on their machines. In my case, and I suspect in case of others, it's not going to be an overnight switch - we work in a production environment after all. We have to evaluate the viability, stability etc. of the new platform, and data conversion/migration in case of applications which do not have a direct equivalent is an issue. The devil you know always has the advantage that at least it sort of works even if it doesn't work very well. How viable would it be to write a compatibility layer for OpenStep 4.2 Intel architecture apps to run on Darwin Intel + GnuStep (possibly after being patched a little by an automatic patcher program)? I'm assuming Mach-O format is the same, and Darwin has most of the system calls of NeXT's BSD/Mach even if they are slightly re- arranged, so it sounds like in principle it might be possible to write appropriate compatibility .dylibs if a compatibility Display Postscript was feasible. Has TexShop or NeXTTeX been ported to Gnustep? What about OmniGroup, could they be persuaded to port? Tomaž ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Hi, On 2007-11-28 10:46:39 +0100 Dr Tomaž Slivnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am very seriously considering switching to a Unix variant + GnuStep (be it Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc. - I do not know). The Unix layer of Apple is definitively unsatisfactory. As is their approach to releasing software - release lots of flashy gummy but pay no attention to whether staple features actually work. I appreciate Darwin, but I too share your view of too much gummy stuff as you call it. I dislike so many choices in MacOS.. but I soo much like other things it is very conflictuary. I still run 10.2.8. But switching to another unix with GNUstep is not viable yet: i have 3 computers, but stil hand back to mac. But I believe that most likely switchers / potential valuable developer contributors to GnuStep are now on Mac OS X. You have to make it easy for such people to install GnuStep on their machines. But why GNUstep on MacOS? The ultimate goal of applications in GAP is to have them run on Mac too, but natively built. Has TexShop or NeXTTeX been ported to Gnustep? What about OmniGroup, could they be persuaded to port? You raise an important point. As GAP co-admin I have tried several times to contact old OpenStep program authors to motivate them to release their source, possible under a suitable license. I always failed. Gregory, the project maintainer, failed too even with this title. Also with private people (Scott Hess comes to my mind). It is very sad because prorgams of high quality get lost. The case of Omni was again and again of topic since the wide range of applications they worked on. I contacted them for the OmniWeb stuff (the sources of the framework are available, but under a strange license) but they said it was too much work to put them in shape, even if I requested them in any state. Omni worked also on the Lighthouse applications but those are from Sun now and they are probably lost forever. If you find some stuff, possibly rereleased as GPL or BSD, don't hesistate to contact me. We can port it and distribute it. But first you need the source. An exceedlingly nice application to port (and generally maintain for mac too) would be TIFFany but i never got a reply. That would be a top-quality application. The advantage of OpenStep over Mac stuff is as you state yourself not only the easier compatibility, but the better quality of many of those applications compared to many mac siblings which seem to be crammed together just for effects. Sure there is good stuff there too, no doubt. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Hi, Last time I'd heard, Sun was not interested in releasing the Lighthouse suite of sources - but hey it's worth trying every once in a while, they may change their mind. Anyone know where www.quantrix.com got their code base from, was it written from scratch or licensed from Sun? Would they port to GnuStep? well, there are other ways. As Nikolaus pointed to me there is FlexiSheet available which can be made compile on mac 10.2.8 and thus porting to gnustep is easy. I wanted to evaluate it for an inclusion into GAP and further development, but I stuck after compilation since I am not able to launch it, not even on mac. Instead of bla bla: code, porting help, source codes to work on. This is what is required. Once GNUstep will have more applications the ball will roll more. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Hi Dr. Toma, I appreciate the enthusiasm you put in your emails. I must say i share many things you say, but not everything, especially not some of your conculsions. While I appreciate your OpenStep-purism to the most since I always fear too that gnustep looses itself and morphs into ither stuff I highly despise, my long stay with this project has led me to appreciate more point of views on the project compared to the Beginning, let me share some of them with you. wrong etc. The question of gummy never even arises. a bit false. While there are foruntatley people who go beyond a bit of looks and are interested in substance, sometimes there is a little barrier to get their attention. It might be even as little as a color which gets disliked but can't be changed. Here's a question for you - if you have the choice between GNUstep taking over the world but becoming MS Windows in the process, or, staying a nice environment but only being used by a select and organically growing core of tech. savvy users who appreciate it, which would you rather have? May I sound more idealistic? I want to take over the world or, at least, be recognized by it, without changing the soul of gnustep. I perfectly get your point, but our niche may be bigger than what you think without betraying ourselves. I have always kept an eye on it. I've never been happy with Apple and I am growing more and more unhappy with it. I would love to have an alternative, and am seriously looking at migrating to a Unix variant + GnuStep. I think it's very realistic that I do so. If I can do it, if it's viable for me to do it, I would love to do it and I will do it. I perfectly share your ideas. I can understand them. I dislike more and more where Apple is going. But udnerstand: Apple doesn't make computers anymore. It changed even its name. It makes digital stuff. That is the business. Even after the switch, even with its worse styling, macs are still great if compared to other though! Even Sony Vaios are not what they used to be and if you use Vista and Office XP you think the wold has gone totally crazy. So maybe nice ideas would be to use NetBSD+GNUstep on an Apple hardware. Or even use GNUstep over plain Darwin on their own boxes. I admit that for workstation and server use, a SPARC box running Solaris but with a complete GNUstep+WIndowmaker environment is interesting! GNUstep can be flexible! Buy the best workstation you want and use the nicest Laptop and use the OS that best suits it, GNUstep over it. The main apps I can't do without are the development environment, TeX, Mathematica, Terminal, OmniGraffle, Mail, Address Book, web browser, VOIP, software to run a scanner. I believe GnuStep has a lot of these and is a real possibility; I am interested in finding out now just how good it has become. Everyone has a set of Application he wants most. We at GAP do the best to provide you them. But it is no easy task writing stuff from scratch or porting without sources! And developers are needed. Nope. Just can't get it to install at all - I repeat, I've just tried doing everything I can to install GnuStep on a fresh, clean, unmodified installation of Leopard, and I can't figure out how to do it (other than perhaps to spend the next 3 weeks manually compiling GCC and every package needed). I can't figure it out at all! because you complicate things more than you need to. On linux/x86 and linux/ppc it is a matter of configure + install On NetBSD/x86, NetBSD/ppc too. On NetBSD/sparc the only problem is that stupid ffcall, else it is the same! On Solaris/SPARC little more is requried. Maybe even the same. Not to say that running on mac or darwin isn't nice and I hope we will do, but I prefer to invest my time elsewhere. I try to make my apps compile natively on mac. So let me specify some points you have so much at heart. You despise theming. Look it at another point of view. Done well, theming wont hurt us NeXT-lovers. I would prefer the default theme to stay NeXT. But why not attract more people? Still the point is another one: GNUstep is a flexible framework and one of its strength is (and can be mroe in the future) portability. Like OpenStep and yellow Box, a lot of serious professionals (bankers, researchers...) would love their app on mac, unix, linux, bsd, and even windows. Since there not a full enviroment is seeked it is best that GNUstep merges smoothly in the surrounding environment. So imagine a theme with windows 2000, one with XP and one with vista look. It would ease acceptance of that application. One application after the other you gain acceptance of the rest too. Microsoft started with a crappy office suite which just got worse and worse and a couple of other crap... now it runs servers and datases of whole industries, even mission critical stuff. Maybe some of that started because some bean counter which made decisions had windows and
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
I suppose I should declare a vested interest - i.e. one of me having *some* nice platform to work with. Windows never was that. Apple could have been that when they bought NeXT, but Mac OS X is becoming increasingly more painful to work with. Linux/Solaris/other Unix by itself (without GnuStep) is great but lacks that OpenStep functionality. If GnuStep sells out, there will be *no* alternative with any potential left me for me to use *at*all*. A problem for me - but a big opportunity for GnuStep. Because I don't think I'm the only one in this position. Tomaž ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
I wanted to jump in on a couple of these points... Here is a key question you need to be able to answer: why would anyone want develop on GnuStep, rather than Mac OS X? Where is your competitive advantage? Not sure this is the right way to ask this, since GNUStep is not an OS. The question really is why would someone use GNUStep instead of Cocoa... and the answer is, if they're Mac programmers, they probably wouldn't. If they want portability, then it is a different story... Niches you could potentially appeal to: 1) former NeXT users 2) technical / mathematical users (as NeXTStep) 3) Apple is not terribly solid and reliable. If you can be more solid/ reliable Wow... if that's the full list, then GNUStep is dead. #1 is no good because most former NeXT users have moved on. Even if ALL of them wanted to come back, there wasn't enough of them the first time around to guarantee success... #2 is far too niche, and there are many other products in that space anyway... #3 Hmmm... I know a lot of people who would challenge you on that, and anyway the thought that an open source project with EXTREMELY limited resources could out perform all of Apple is a stretch. To my mind, there are two groups that could (together) propel GNUStep to the next level: RAD programmers who want to build prototypes and proof of concepts, and people who want to have a product for Windows, *Nix, and Mac OS. But, for both of those groups, work needs to be done. #1: you need a simple way of installing GnuStep. I've only ever used GnuStep off a live CD; I completely agree with this... #2: (i) more development frameworks. (ii) Reliable/bullet-proof/ debugged frameworks. (iii) Faster/optimized frameworks. Sure, but I wouldn't put it so high a priority... If I understand your previous points, you want to see more converts? Well the new developer doesn't understand the need for the frameworks already in place... why impress them with even more? I think it is far more important to make the current frameworks A) bulletproof and B) Demonstrate their capabilities in demonstrations and documents. #3: applications. How about: Yes - to appeal to mathematical/technical market: No. But, I guess everyone has a favorite, right? The point is that the GNUStep team really can't be, and shouldn't be, responsible for the apps. That's our job as the community. The thing the Team who are working so hard on this (usually in spare hours) should worry about is the base set of functionality, usability of it, and documenting it so others can understand it. Killer Apps should follow as matter of course. #4: how about producing an install DVD which formats a PC's disk and automatically installs a GnuStep/Linux distribution? Yikes! Whatever for? GNUStep does not replace an OS! What would you run if windows was gone? As for manufacturing deals, Ubuntu recently got a deal with Dell... GNUStep has a very long way to go to hit those kind of numbers. And Dell has said it doubts it will ever sell an Ubuntu install as it is... -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/GNUstep-theming-%28was-Re%3A-Objective-C-2.0-and-other-new-features-in-Leopard%29-tf4788515.html#a13739478 Sent from the GNUstep - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
What is the perceived need GnuStep wants to satisfy? What is GnuStep's goal / target audience/market? Other than saying as many users as possible I'm not sure what else to say. No system/API/environment should ever specifically target a group of people. People should find us useful and decide to use our stuff, if they want to. But I will not say we're only for group X or group Y. Let me say it as clearly as possible ... GNUstep's goal is to have as many users as we can. I suppose this means becoming mainstream but I also believe that updating GNUstep's look to be more modern can't be a bad thing. Please do not take this note as criticism - I know I am in no position to criticize, since I have not contributed to GnuStep, although I wish I had the time to, both technically and financially, as I think it is a very worthwhile project. However, this is what I think: 1) The strategy described above is too vague and do not think it will get you success: a) Having as many users as possible seems to be more of a wish than a strategy. b) Having *more* users is a good idea, but having as many as possible, I think, is not. Do you really want as many users as possible, even if it means lowering your standards? Does the world need another OS/GUI/development platform for the masses? Does it have room for one? 2) You can't be all things to all men. Forget - to start with - *everyone* wanting to use GnuStep, if they want to. You need a niche that you cater for - to which you offer something nobody else can, or, at least, to offer it 10x better than anyone else. Here is a key question you need to be able to answer: why would anyone want develop on GnuStep, rather than Mac OS X? Where is your competitive advantage? When NeXT came out, it had a definite target niche: the education market. Then it refocussed itself to the mission critical market - financial institutions etc. NeXT may not have been a commercial success overall, but I know for a fact it was a great success, if nowhere else, among maths academics. NeXT and NeXTStep were way ahead of their time - their advantages were numerous; but here are just some of them: - bullet-proof and extremely reliable - none, and I mean none, of the other mainstream alternatives came close in terms of reliability, consistency, simplicity of use and just working. - a completely new development paradigm, resulting in faster development cycle, greater application reliability, code reuse etc. - an unsurpassed platform for software development and technical computing. You do not have the same advantages as NeXTStep had - if for no other reason, because there is Apple. But GnuStep does have all advantages of Objective C / OpenStep; the only platform except Apple to offer these; but potentially offering also: a) ability to run on non-Apple hardware; b) open source (could be important to users not wanting to be tied to a proprietary solution); c) not burdened with having to support legacy technologies (Carbon, HFS+, resource forks etc.); d) potentially cleaner design and less cluttered, nicer, more consistent NeXT-style GUI; e) potential to develop cleaner design of support for new technologies; f) not constrained to include marketing hacks with no technical benefit (like integrated access to the Apple Store in iTunes etc.) Niches you could potentially appeal to: 1) former NeXT users 2) technical / mathematical users (as NeXTStep) 3) Apple is not terribly solid and reliable. If you can be more solid/ reliable, you could potentially target users from the mission critical market - like financial institutions. Those guys have a lot of money and don't mind - often prefer - to develop their entire platform in-house. To them, quality is paramount and money is no object, so if you can convince them you're the best, you're in. My guess would be that your core group of users are ex-NeXTStep/ OpenStep developers. What about Cocoa/Mac OS X developers? I'm not so sure you appeal to them as much - why would one of them want to switch to/develop for GnuStep? Outside of those two groups of developers, I believe you will find it hard to get any people to switch to GnuStep at all. Am I correct - is the current makeup of this mailing list consistent with this view? I believe the substance of what you have to offer is much more important than having a good web site (which, however, is also important), or your slogan (of no consequence in my opinion), or your default theme (which I not only think is not important and will not win you new users; but potentially puts you at risk of losing appeal to your core NeXT group of supporters). Here are some suggestions: #1: you need a simple way of installing GnuStep. I've only ever used GnuStep off a live CD; not because I am not capable of compiling it from source, but because I have not
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Tomaz, I'm not taking it as a criticism at all. But, as project maintainer, I'm sure you can appreciate my position. I can't say unilaterally that I want to appeal to one group over the other. GNUstep currently most appeals to former NeXT people who are into Mac OS X. However, a lot of these people also say that it's time for GNUstep to move forward with it's GUI look. A friend of mine owns a software company that was once fairly well known in the NeXT world and he's said the same thing. I don't believe that changing the look will affect the people who are currently interested in GNUstep, especially since many of them currently feel the same way I do: That GNUstep needs a facelift. Later, GJC -- Gregory Casamento -- OLC, Inc # GNUstep Chief Maintainer - Original Message From: Dr Tomaž Slivnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gregory John Casamento [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:32:56 PM Subject: Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard) What is the perceived need GnuStep wants to satisfy? What is GnuStep's goal / target audience/market? Other than saying as many users as possible I'm not sure what else to say. No system/API/environment should ever specifically target a group of people. People should find us useful and decide to use our stuff, if they want to. But I will not say we're only for group X or group Y. Let me say it as clearly as possible ... GNUstep's goal is to have as many users as we can. I suppose this means becoming mainstream but I also believe that updating GNUstep's look to be more modern can't be a bad thing. Please do not take this note as criticism - I know I am in no position to criticize, since I have not contributed to GnuStep, although I wish I had the time to, both technically and financially, as I think it is a very worthwhile project. However, this is what I think: 1) The strategy described above is too vague and do not think it will get you success: a) Having as many users as possible seems to be more of a wish than a strategy. b) Having *more* users is a good idea, but having as many as possible, I think, is not. Do you really want as many users as possible, even if it means lowering your standards? Does the world need another OS/GUI/development platform for the masses? Does it have room for one? 2) You can't be all things to all men. Forget - to start with - *everyone* wanting to use GnuStep, if they want to. You need a niche that you cater for - to which you offer something nobody else can, or, at least, to offer it 10x better than anyone else. Here is a key question you need to be able to answer: why would anyone want develop on GnuStep, rather than Mac OS X? Where is your competitive advantage? When NeXT came out, it had a definite target niche: the education market. Then it refocussed itself to the mission critical market - financial institutions etc. NeXT may not have been a commercial success overall, but I know for a fact it was a great success, if nowhere else, among maths academics. NeXT and NeXTStep were way ahead of their time - their advantages were numerous; but here are just some of them: - bullet-proof and extremely reliable - none, and I mean none, of the other mainstream alternatives came close in terms of reliability, consistency, simplicity of use and just working. - a completely new development paradigm, resulting in faster development cycle, greater application reliability, code reuse etc. - an unsurpassed platform for software development and technical computing. You do not have the same advantages as NeXTStep had - if for no other reason, because there is Apple. But GnuStep does have all advantages of Objective C / OpenStep; the only platform except Apple to offer these; but potentially offering also: a) ability to run on non-Apple hardware; b) open source (could be important to users not wanting to be tied to a proprietary solution); c) not burdened with having to support legacy technologies (Carbon, HFS+, resource forks etc.); d) potentially cleaner design and less cluttered, nicer, more consistent NeXT-style GUI; e) potential to develop cleaner design of support for new technologies; f) not constrained to include marketing hacks with no technical benefit (like integrated access to the Apple Store in iTunes etc.) Niches you could potentially appeal to: 1) former NeXT users 2) technical / mathematical users (as NeXTStep) 3) Apple is not terribly solid and reliable. If you can be more solid/ reliable, you could potentially target users from the mission critical market - like financial institutions. Those guys have a lot of money and don't mind - often prefer - to develop their entire platform in-house. To them, quality is paramount and money is no object, so if you can convince them you're the best,
Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Dear All, To begin with, I'd like to say that this mail contains what some might consider being criticism. This is true. Criticism is not welcome but is necessary. This is the base of science, this is the base of marketing. But all I want is GNUstep (and actually OpenStep) to come back to the place it deserves: being #1. Because OpenStep clearly is what Java was made from, and when you see all the fuss about C#, what does C# offer that OpenStep didn't offer for a long time? So bear in mind that I'm not undermining the project, and I know that this a lot of work, GNUstep is great project, but could be made even greater. It all reminds me of the scrollbar position topic of a year ago. And we are exactly at the same point. When you say that people interested about GNUstep won't care about a new UI, this is definitely wrong. First of all myself. I'm a Cocoa developer and I've been interested in GNUstep even before I turned to Mac OS X. And I completely dropped GNUstep (really sad) because of the look and the feel that is in many points different from today UI standards (eg: scroll position). I know that the UI can be customized with camaelon, still this is something that rather takes some time to do. Second, a friend of mine (who started the open source OpenFootball project), needed an interface to do motion capture. It turned to wxWidgets although I advocated GNUstep and even considered developping the UI. But why wasn't it retained? Because for him, GNUstep is too hard to install, as a feel he doesn't understand, and it looks terrible. And this guy is no newbie. And there are loads of them. So all I wish is that when developers consider a multiplatform environnment, that GNUstep is not phased out for its look feel, and I wished it was retained. Regards. On Nov 12, 2007, at 11:14 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote: Tomaz, I'm not taking it as a criticism at all. But, as project maintainer, I'm sure you can appreciate my position. I can't say unilaterally that I want to appeal to one group over the other. GNUstep currently most appeals to former NeXT people who are into Mac OS X. However, a lot of these people also say that it's time for GNUstep to move forward with it's GUI look. A friend of mine owns a software company that was once fairly well known in the NeXT world and he's said the same thing. I don't believe that changing the look will affect the people who are currently interested in GNUstep, especially since many of them currently feel the same way I do: That GNUstep needs a facelift. Later, GJC -- Gregory Casamento -- OLC, Inc # GNUstep Chief Maintainer - Original Message From: Dr Tomaž Slivnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gregory John Casamento [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 2:32:56 PM Subject: Re: GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard) What is the perceived need GnuStep wants to satisfy? What is GnuStep's goal / target audience/market? Other than saying as many users as possible I'm not sure what else to say. No system/API/environment should ever specifically target a group of people. People should find us useful and decide to use our stuff, if they want to. But I will not say we're only for group X or group Y. Let me say it as clearly as possible ... GNUstep's goal is to have as many users as we can. I suppose this means becoming mainstream but I also believe that updating GNUstep's look to be more modern can't be a bad thing. Please do not take this note as criticism - I know I am in no position to criticize, since I have not contributed to GnuStep, although I wish I had the time to, both technically and financially, as I think it is a very worthwhile project. However, this is what I think: 1) The strategy described above is too vague and do not think it will get you success: a) Having as many users as possible seems to be more of a wish than a strategy. b) Having *more* users is a good idea, but having as many as possible, I think, is not. Do you really want as many users as possible, even if it means lowering your standards? Does the world need another OS/GUI/development platform for the masses? Does it have room for one? 2) You can't be all things to all men. Forget - to start with - *everyone* wanting to use GnuStep, if they want to. You need a niche that you cater for - to which you offer something nobody else can, or, at least, to offer it 10x better than anyone else. Here is a key question you need to be able to answer: why would anyone want develop on GnuStep, rather than Mac OS X? Where is your competitive advantage? When NeXT came out, it had a definite target niche: the education market. Then it refocussed itself to the mission critical market - financial institutions etc. NeXT may not have been a commercial success overall, but I know for a
GNUstep theming (was Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard)
Tomaz, What is the perceived need GnuStep wants to satisfy? What is GnuStep's goal / target audience/market? Other than saying as many users as possible I'm not sure what else to say. No system/API/environment should ever specifically target a group of people. People should find us useful and decide to use our stuff, if they want to. But I will not say we're only for group X or group Y. Let me say it as clearly as possible... GNUstep's goal is to have as many users as we can. I suppose this means becoming mainstream but I also believe that updating GNUstep's look to be more modern can't be a bad thing. GJC -- Gregory Casamento -- OLC, Inc # GNUstep Chief Maintainer - Original Message From: Dr Tomaž Slivnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gregory John Casamento [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:17:27 PM Subject: Re: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard if I want gummy and a Cocoa environment with the bestest and latest bloatware included, I can, and always will, buy Apple. Would I be far wrong if I guessed that most people involved in GnuStep are old-time NeXTies who want to be able to continue using their favourite user environment in the 21st century, and continue to develop it in the same careful, considered, and well-designed way the original NextStep was developed? GnuStep may need to ask itself the question - is its goal to pursue quality and satisfy this core group of users, and grow its user base organically, OR, to try to appeal to the masses, aim to become mainstream (an aim which, incidentally, I think is bound not to be achieved), and consequently have to make some compromises as a consequence (like Apple has done)? I think we need to do a little of both (growing organically and appealing to the masses). What is the perceived need GnuStep wants to satisfy? What is GnuStep's goal / target audience/market? I think it is crucial to be crystal clear on this and to stay very focussed on that goal if you want to achieve it. From where I stand, it doesn't look like GnuStep has a huge amount of market penetration, or even developer penetration. So GnuStep does not appear to have had much success with these objectives. However, it has been wonderfully successful at achieving another equally, if not more, valid, objective, i.e. that of re-creating and evolving the great NeXT design. A design of virtually Platonic perfection at the time, but one which has since needed to evolve to support modern day technologies. This is a niche you appeal to and you can grow organically. I think Apple has rather let the NeXT legacy down, and that the job could have been done *much* better. So I've assumed doing this was GnuStep's objective. If not, what is it? By trying to appeal to the masses, you will have to compromise (like Apple has done) and sacrifice goals you've already achieved - and you have much to be proud of. What will you gain in return? There are a lot of competitors (Microsoft, Apple, Gnome, KDE etc.) out there who very successfully cater for the needs of, and appeal to, the mass market. You will be hard pressed to compete with them. T ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
