Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/19/2011 09:41 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Of course, currently GNUstep is not targeted to those environments so you need some of homework. But this does not mean that one can build a professional package with it and ship a commercial product both with cygwin and mingw. it is possible and it was done in the past. Is packaging this works out-of-the-box? I read what you recommended: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/Windows.html there it says a method of how to generate an installer package, but from the context and the example (calculator) I had the impression the installer package is to install the application only -- the user has to install GNUstep MSYS System plus GNUstep Core before able to use such an application installer, right? Is there a way to deploy a single GNUStep application to Windows audience that works with one package, works almost out-of-the-box? Best thanks. -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, Is packaging this works out-of-the-box? I read what you recommended: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/Windows.html there it says a method of how to generate an installer package, but from the context and the example (calculator) I had the impression the installer package is to install the application only -- the user has to install GNUstep MSYS System plus GNUstep Core before able to use such an application installer, right? Correct. It is a bit like a .NET application that requires you to install the framework before. It is then shared with other applications Is there a way to deploy a single GNUStep application to Windows audience that works with one package, works almost out-of-the-box? Installing the libraries as shared is desirable if more than one application has to be installed and it can also make updates easier. Java, .NET, wxWidgets all do install a sperate package form the application. It is possible to make one single self-contained application (like iTunes or Safari on windows do) but I don't think it is done with standard tools. I never did it. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/22/2011 05:50 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: It is possible to make one single self-contained application (like iTunes or Safari on windows do) but I don't think it is done with standard tools. I never did it. Thanks! Very informative. -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 19 Apr 2011, at 09:35, Zhang Weiwu, Beijing wrote: On 04/18/2011 04:20 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Currently the only supported way is MinGW. Thanks for the information. I come to realize MinGW+GnuStep setup doesn't have a packaging system or installer like CygWin, thus there are two choices to get applications. Yes there is a packaging-system/installer ... see the windows page on the gnustep website ... http://www.gnustep.org/experience/Windows.html ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/18/2011 04:20 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Currently the only supported way is MinGW. Thanks for the information. I come to realize MinGW+GnuStep setup doesn't have a packaging system or installer like CygWin, thus there are two choices to get applications. 1. To get applications packaged in a Win32 installer. There is only gorm, systempreferences and calculator available, a rather barren land. 2. To compile from source. This isn't trivial. For example, gnumail only offer source code in form of monotone checkout, so first problem is how to get monotone running. Many other application have source hosted on their site, and the way to get them may change. Besides it's not sure they will successfully be compiled, not even mentioning dependencies. -1. Switch to cygwin. This is a dead-end at the moment. Both seems to be much poorer choices than FreeBSD (excluding -1). There is an additional choice that is also non-trivial: To run a X-server on Windows and to install a virtual machine where FreeBSD inside, and install application in FreeBSD, port to X-server in Windows 2000. This additional choice looks only as good as falling back to FreeBSD and tolerate 2 devices having no driver. Thanks for commenting so far! -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, On Tuesday, April 19, 2011 10:35:29 am Zhang Weiwu, Beijing wrote: On 04/18/2011 04:20 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Currently the only supported way is MinGW. Thanks for the information. I come to realize MinGW+GnuStep setup doesn't have a packaging system or installer like CygWin, thus there are two choices to get applications. 1. To get applications packaged in a Win32 installer. There is only gorm, systempreferences and calculator available, a rather barren land. 2. To compile from source. This isn't trivial. For example, gnumail only offer source code in form of monotone checkout, so first problem is how to get monotone running. Many other application have source hosted on their site, and the way to get them may change. Besides it's not sure they will successfully be compiled, not even mentioning dependencies. you may want to take a look here: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/x11/gnustep/ Take a look into the Makefiles of the softwares, you are interested in. Also take a look at the patches in the respective subdirectories. -1. Switch to cygwin. This is a dead-end at the moment. Both seems to be much poorer choices than FreeBSD (excluding -1). There is an additional choice that is also non-trivial: To run a X-server on Windows and to install a virtual machine where FreeBSD inside, and install application in FreeBSD, port to X-server in Windows 2000. This additional choice looks only as good as falling back to FreeBSD and tolerate 2 devices having no driver. Or you may try OpenBSD instead ;) The number of available libs/applications will grow in not too far future. I have a couple of new ports in the queue. cheers, Sebastian Thanks for commenting so far! ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 04:26, Zhang Weiwu zhangwe...@realss.com wrote: On 04/18/2011 06:37 PM, Ivan Vučica wrote: How do I make a choice? - is your app targeted at an end-user who is primarily using Windows? MinGW - is your app targeted at a scientist, or a hacker/hobbyist who doesn't mind installing extra software? Cygwin Typical, isn't it? FOSS community tends to assume participants to be developers, that might is also the root of usability problems. Technical audience is different from a user audience, and rarely expectations match. Mac OS X has become a rare gem here, in satisfying many techies as well end-users. In that way, Lion is scaring me; despite some improvements, it appears to cater to a different user-base than Snow Leopard and previous versions. Cygwin targets developers and technical audience, in providing an alternative to using UNIX for deeply-technical stuff. For example, you may be modding a Windows game and you need to run a UNIX utility -- you need Cygwin. MinGW and MSYS are good alternatives, until the utility you need turns out to abuse fork(), pthreads, UNIX sockets. Or it may use BSD sockets to an extent that porting to WinSock is unfeasible. Cygwin simply isn't for day-to-day use, and that's it: end-users are not the target audience. MinGW isn't either, but it is just a compiler toolchain, so the end-user doesn't see it as he would have to see Cygwin. Neither has anything to do with antipathy towards end-users. Of course, that does not mean there aren't massive improvements that could and should be done all over FLOSS and free platforms. Most trivial example: while dragging and dropping, I cannot use alt-tab to switch between apps in GNOME. No, I don't have my app, never had one and doesn't plan to have one. GNUStep is a curious knowledge to me for weekend hours, just a user, not a developer:) You'd be much happier using a Linux distribution then. Consider that, according to its developers, GNUstep is not a desktop environment; it's a set of libraries for developing apps. Being able to plug it together and form a neat desktop environment is apparently just a neat convenience. So you may really want to try using prepackaged binaries for a Linux distro. Alternatively, Windows packages look very nice, but you'll have to get your hands dirty and compile apps you want to use, since most apps don't ship with binaries for Windows. Which means you'll have to make a first step towards being a developer. It's not a bad thing, y'know, especially since compiling mostly comes down to unpacking the source, and punching make+make install. -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net Coming soon for iPhone, Zombie Ball - http://j.mp/zbivmail ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
IVAN VUčICA schrieb am Di. 19. Apr '11 13:10:54: Cygwin simply isn't for day-to-day use, and that's it: end-users are not the target audience. MinGW isn't-- afaik WO and YellowBox have been brought to Windows by using cygwin -- mit freundlichen Gruessen/best regards Pirmin Braun seat-1 Software GmbH - Sinziger Str. 29a - 53424 Remagen +49(0)2642 308288 +49(0)163-6290887 - skype:pirminb Fax +49(0)2642 308626 http://www.seat-1.com p...@seat-1.com http://sourceforge.net/projects/intars Geschäftsführer: Pirmin Braun, Ralf Engelhardt Registergericht: Amtsgericht Coburg HRB3136 ein Unternehmen der MAX21 Gruppe - http://www.max21.de ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 13:34, Pirmin Braun p...@seat-1.com wrote: afaik WO and YellowBox have been brought to Windows by using cygwin Source? First page of Google for: yellow box on windows cygwin does not appear to have a mention of this. -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net Coming soon for iPhone, Zombie Ball - http://j.mp/zbivmail ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Re: Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
IVAN VUčICA schrieb am Di. 19. Apr '11 14:35:10: Source? First page of Google for: yellow box on windows cygwin does not appear to have a mention of this. try i386-next-cygwin32 and I've seen traces in some binaries (gdb.exe, as.exe): i386-next-cygwin32 i386-unknown-cygwin32 cygnus-2.6 -- mit freundlichen Gruessen/best regards Pirmin Braun seat-1 Software GmbH - Sinziger Str. 29a - 53424 Remagen +49(0)2642 308288 +49(0)163-6290887 - skype:pirminb Fax +49(0)2642 308626 http://www.seat-1.com p...@seat-1.com http://sourceforge.net/projects/intars Geschäftsführer: Pirmin Braun, Ralf Engelhardt Registergericht: Amtsgericht Coburg HRB3136 ein Unternehmen der MAX21 Gruppe - http://www.max21.de ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, Thanks for the information. I come to realize MinGW+GnuStep setup doesn't have a packaging system or installer like CygWin, thus there are two choices to get applications. 1. To get applications packaged in a Win32 installer. There is only gorm, systempreferences and calculator available, a rather barren land. 2. To compile from source. This isn't trivial. For example, gnumail only offer source code in form of monotone checkout, so first problem is how to get monotone running. Many other application have source hosted on their site, and the way to get them may change. Besides it's not sure they will successfully be compiled, not even mentioning dependencies. -1. Switch to cygwin. This is a dead-end at the moment. Both seems to be much poorer choices than FreeBSD (excluding -1). There is an additional choice that is also non-trivial: To run a X-server on Windows and to install a virtual machine where FreeBSD inside, and install application in FreeBSD, port to X-server in Windows 2000. This additional choice looks only as good as falling back to FreeBSD and tolerate 2 devices having no driver. Thanks for commenting so far! Well, compiling from source *should* be trivial. Any decently maintained application has tarball releases, often also nightly or beta tarballs. I compile and install stuff that way. Compiling Ink, FTP, PRICE, LaternaMagica, Gorm, ProjectCenter, Graphos is a matter of make make install. GWorkspace needs some configuration tweaks I remener (all within the configure realm) and in any case it is not so suited for windows, although the latest versions do run now. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, end-users are not the target audience. MinGW isn't-- afaik WO and YellowBox have been brought to Windows by using cygwin -- That is correct. Cygwin is older than MinGW. If you notice, you can still install MinGW libraries inside Cygwin. One derives from the other. When YB was born, Cygwin was the only beast around. Furthermore, it is much easier to port application using cygwin. Also, all this talk about cygwin not being for the end user is incorrect. It may be in the roughest DIY form. But there are many commercial applications that ship and install with it under the hood and the user just needs to click an icon to open his app. Let's not spread too much FUD. Gene Amdahl moments may be useful, but shall not be the norm. Of course, currently GNUstep is not targeted to those environments so you need some of homework. But this does not mean that one can build a professional package with it and ship a commercial product both with cygwin and mingw. it is possible and it was done in the past. Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, Or you may try OpenBSD instead ;) The number of available libs/applications will grow in not too far future. I have a couple of new ports in the queue. Sebastian is working hard on it, thanks :) To his praise, he is the maintainer of packages who has most communication with the original app. maintainers, sends patches, tests new releases... so his work must be good! Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/19/2011 09:37 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Well, compiling from source *should* be trivial. Any decently maintained application has tarball releases, often also nightly or beta tarballs. Really? Before I try, I did a bit math to estimate the hours I am going to need. Following are my findings in 20 minutes math (by checking freebsd port's dependency table) * Cynthinue depends on qt widget (!!) and nasd. Image the hell of trouble installing these on Windows. * aspell, tiff, jpeg, png are the libraries that most applications depending on, need to check if they are already available in GNUStep-core and MinGW. Some application depend on jbig (MPDCon) and mng (Cynthinue). * GNUMail depends on cups, portaudio, libau. This is only a 20 minute investigation. I am trying to get a sense what I would end up without a package manager, as I never tried to work without package manager before (even the rudimentary Cygwin package manager is a must to me). -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/20/2011 09:11 AM, Zhang Weiwu, Beijing wrote: * Cynthinue depends on qt widget (!!) and nasd. Image the hell of trouble installing these on Windows. A second closer look shows FreeBSD ports forces dependency on arts which depends on qt3. It also forces dependency on esound. Manually edit Makefile in ports got me Cynthinue installed without arts/esound on FreeBSD. -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 18.04.2011 04:49, Zhang Weiwu, Beijing wrote: Hello. FreeBSD user for 12 years, Linux user for being 8 years. I intend to run GNUStep on one notebook computer. Now after multiple failures to get all device driver running on my notebook computer for as long as half a year (no I am not too stupid to use google to find driver or compile a module / customized kernel), I am deciding to switch to Windows. Which distribution is better? Is Cygwin with their X-Server the best? MinGW advertised its superiority on not having whole POSIX there, but for me it isn't an advantage at all, so does it have other advantages or Cygwin better? I am the kind of using for fun (not coding for fun) and prefer the least trouble way, which almost mean I always choose whatever other chose. So what is the most chosen way to run GNUStep on Windows? Currently GNUstep on Cygwin isn't supported. I am very sure that this is a possible setup, as I used it myself years ago, but the last time I checked this configuration was broken. If you want to use GNUstep on Windows you either need to invest some time to get it working with Cygwin again (which would be a good thing) or stick to MinGW, which is fully supported. ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
FRED KIEFER schrieb am Mo. 18. Apr '11 09:55:01: If you want to use GNUstep on Windows you either need to invest some time to get it working with Cygwin again (which would be a good thing) currently we're trying this. Maybe we can join efforts? -- mit freundlichen Gruessen/best regards Pirmin Braun seat-1 Software GmbH - Sinziger Str. 29a - 53424 Remagen +49(0)2642 308288 +49(0)163-6290887 - skype:pirminb Fax +49(0)2642 308626 http://www.seat-1.com p...@seat-1.com http://sourceforge.net/projects/intars Geschäftsführer: Pirmin Braun, Ralf Engelhardt Registergericht: Amtsgericht Coburg HRB3136 ein Unternehmen der MAX21 Gruppe - http://www.max21.de ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Hi, I am the kind of using for fun (not coding for fun) and prefer the least trouble way, which almost mean I always choose whatever other chose. So what is the most chosen way to run GNUStep on Windows? Currently the only supported way is MinGW. Cygwin used to work, but its support was left unmaintained for years, thus currently it does not work - at least for me. It could be revived, I am not aware of any technical reason of why not. Performances are not as bad as people depict them, I used Cygwin quite successfully while at the university. MinGW is indeed almost completely native, with Cygwin you would have the advantage of more POSIX functions (thus much easier compatibility) and the option to test both the X11 backend as well as using win32 like in MinGW. Somebody reported a working Cygwin about 1 year ago here on the list, but never shared his results. I mailed him privately several times, with no reply. I Don't remember his name though, I think he was Asian. So it depends on how adventurous you want to be. VirtualPC/VirtualBOX/VMWare might be a solution for you too. Remember that you can run the applications inside the VM and then export the display locally to an X server running on the windows part. I did this on a specific setup and the performances were more than acceptable! Riccardo ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 04/18/2011 04:20 PM, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Remember that you can run the applications inside the VM and then export the display locally to an X server running on the windows part. I did this on a specific setup and the performances were more than acceptable! Enlightening! I almost forgot X is a protocol. Thanks! I'll try MingGW first. -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Which distribution is better? Is Cygwin with their X-Server the best? MinGW advertised its superiority on not having whole POSIX there, but for me it isn't an advantage at all, so does it have other advantages or Cygwin better? Not having the whole POSIX is, ironically, an advantage. Cygwin requires an entire environment to be installed (or, at the very least, a relatively large .dll -- which is not a scenario I have tried out). At the same time, MinGW is definitely oriented at shipping end-user native-looking applications. How do I make a choice? - is your app targeted at an end-user who is primarily using Windows? MinGW - is your app targeted at a scientist, or a hacker/hobbyist who doesn't mind installing extra software? Cygwin -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net - http://ivan.vucica.net/ Coming soon for iPhone, Zombie Ball - http://j.mp/zbivmail smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
On 18 Apr 2011, at 11:37, Ivan Vučica wrote: How do I make a choice? - is your app targeted at an end-user who is primarily using Windows? MinGW - is your app targeted at a scientist, or a hacker/hobbyist who doesn't mind installing extra software? Cygwin Or, the short version: Cygwin is for running *NIX apps on Windows. MingGW is designed for porting *NIX apps to Windows. David -- Sent from my Difference Engine ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: what is the best Windows distribution?
Thanks a lot for the detail of technical difference:) I think it's obvious I should choose MinGW. On 04/18/2011 06:37 PM, Ivan Vučica wrote: How do I make a choice? - is your app targeted at an end-user who is primarily using Windows? MinGW - is your app targeted at a scientist, or a hacker/hobbyist who doesn't mind installing extra software? Cygwin Typical, isn't it? FOSS community tends to assume participants to be developers, that might is also the root of usability problems. No, I don't have my app, never had one and doesn't plan to have one. GNUStep is a curious knowledge to me for weekend hours, just a user, not a developer:) Thanks for your comments! ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
what is the best Windows distribution?
Hello. FreeBSD user for 12 years, Linux user for being 8 years. I intend to run GNUStep on one notebook computer. Now after multiple failures to get all device driver running on my notebook computer for as long as half a year (no I am not too stupid to use google to find driver or compile a module / customized kernel), I am deciding to switch to Windows. Which distribution is better? Is Cygwin with their X-Server the best? MinGW advertised its superiority on not having whole POSIX there, but for me it isn't an advantage at all, so does it have other advantages or Cygwin better? I am the kind of using for fun (not coding for fun) and prefer the least trouble way, which almost mean I always choose whatever other chose. So what is the most chosen way to run GNUStep on Windows? Thanks a lot! -- 我的博客： http://zhangweiwu.ixiezi.com/ 网站进化论 －－写给需要网站或后悔有了网站的人 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
